I'm waiting for answers

[Rob Kazarinoff]

Dear Jack,

Forgive me for not posting sooner.  I can't imagine what you're going through right now.  You are asking good questions and you are owed answers.  The last meeting with the LBs Jeff is speaking of took place in March, 2002.  I've searched my soul and I can't remember saying that I was satisfied with leadership's explanation as to how they dealt with David's sin.  I do remember saying something about "going too far down that path."  I was probably speaking of something else.  

I do remember that at the end of the meeting I was asked not to speak evil of Jeff or Roberto and not to put anything on the internet.  I remember saying that I wouldn't unless someone approached me and asked me questions (Code of Silence).  Nobody did (Code of Silence).  I thought I was being a good boy and doing the right thing.  Now I see and confess it was cowardice.  Please forgive me.  Much later I repented and called both Jeff and Roberto and told them that what I did was wrong.  

e-mail me at robkaz2@netzero.net if you want to talk.

Your bro, Rob K.

[BenJapheth]

Fear of Man is idolatry.

Joe was afraid of Bob, who was afraid of John who was afraid of George.

Dale was afraid of Bill, who was of afraid of Dan , who was afraid of George.

Mary was afraid of Allen, who was afraid of Mike, who was afraid of George.

Joe, Dale, and Allen = Idolatry Service to George.

Blessings and may everyone find the grace of God to repent for following that fraud and his minnions.

Grace, Peace, and Hope...Chuck Vanasse

[arusso]

Dear Chuck

My name is Aaron Russo.  I lived with Jeff Lehmkuhl for 6 months and was in fellowship in the assembly in SLO for about 1 year.  I then moved Fullerton and then Riverside where I eventually was a leading brother.  I left the assembly about a year`and a half ago because God clearly led me to another place of fellowship.  I wanted to comment on your most recent post.  First of all, I NEVER WORSHIPPED BROTHER GEORGE.  It is not reasonable to say that everybody who was in the assemblies did practice idolatry by being involved in his (George's) ministry.  TO say that everybody who ever followed or agreed with anything he said was an idolater is a gross over generalization.  I especially take exception to your comment about wives who practiced idolatry by following their husbands.  THe hidden and now revealed sin of George Geftakys does not automatically make every man and woman who ever got saved or served God in his ministry an idolater.  You must not categorize people in the same way George did.  Just as not everybody outside the assembly was "worldly"  so now not everybody who was ever in the assembly was or is an idolater.  Please consider these things.


In Christ


Aaron Russo

[BenJapheth]

Aaron, I will consider it, many thanks.  Broad stroking is a problem of mine, pray for me....

You took the greatest exception to my comment on wives.  Wives must be lead by their husbands, however, part of being a good helper is to warn husbands when trouble looms, that is my point.  Woman can't  hide behind their husbands, in this they have a charge to be a help-mate.  I believe God has given woman a unique ability to woman to sense when a family is moving into danger.  Their sirens must sound, not be brow beaten into silence.

It's difficult to parse guilt.  That's why I said adults with years of service in the assembly have all been complicit.

Fear of man is a trap and it is idolatry.  Passive acceptance of a despot is "enablement"...If your conscience is clear, I believe you.

Forgive me if you feel the overview did not apply to yourself. Some people are special, and perhaps you are one of those rare individuals.

Even as an outsider with family a family of 50 split right down the middle for 25 years - I think in many ways I was an enabler and guilty of supporting idolatry.  My gifts run similar to Brent's and I did nothing.
I'm culpable.  

I'm glad you're not...Stay involved we need men of goodwill such as yourself.

Thanks, Aaron...Grace to you.
 

[trockman]

Hello Chuck, Aaron, and everyone else.

for what it is worth, I find myself in total agreement with Chuck.  There are a very few special cases, but the majority of us are complicit, if for no other reason than we gave our money!

Think about it, we put our money in the box, and we knew that it all went to Fullerton.  We also knew that what happened after that was a secret.  On top of this, many of us are saying,  "I always had a problem with George, he is just a man.  I never followed a man, etc."  

Well, it was one man's idea to take all the money and keep it secret.  If you gave him money, you followed his plan.

I do know of a few rare cases that never tithed.
It's Idolatry, guys.  I'm embarassed.

Brent

[Tom Weltner]

Greetings, Heidie!

It was very nice to see you the other day!  Thanks for stopping by.   I agree that you and many others are owed an apology.  I read you e-mail that you wrote when you became aware of David's dispicable abuse of Judy.  Actually, of all the people you addressed it to, I was the first to read it.  It was right on the money.  If you were called a liar or gossip, you were sinned against.  As for the leadership in SLO, I believe Danny is sincere.  All evidence around me suggests Jeff is in denial.  Perhaps the process has started, but there is a long, long, way to go.  So far, words only, and few, vague,weak ones at that.

Tom

[Arthur]

I totally agree with Aaron.  There are possibilities other than idolatry.  Consider that maybe, just maybe, we were following Christ.

Do you think it strange that a young man who is seeking Christ obtain guidance from older, more mature Christians?
I read in the Bible that we need to obey those who are our guides and submit to them.  Since I wanted to please God, was it so strange that I do what the Bible said?  We have already studied that the word obey in that passage means "to be persuaded by", and the word submit means "to willfully place yourself under."  
Should I not have done these things?
I read in the Bible that we need to "Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart."  
Pardon me, was I not supposed to obey the Bible?

You may say, well these men weren't mature Christian men; they weren't calling on God out of a pure heart.  Yes!  Now we know, but how were we to know then?  Don't you get it? That's why such a one is described as a "wolf in sheep's clothing".  It's not just a wolf.  Any sheep would run from a wolf.  It's a wolf under disguise, undectable by the sheep.  These men preached from the Bible and lived what looked on the outside to be good lives.  It wasn't until I got to know them better that it became clear that it wasn't as it appeared.  Even then I was willing to say, well I should not expect to have perfect brethren or perfect leaders, but love them anyway.  Is there something wrong with that?

When you make friends with someone, do you normally perform a background check on them to see if they might have been an sex offender or a member of the KGB?
No, you approach friendships by extending goodwill and giving the other person the benefit of the doubt.  I gave them the benefit of the doubt, but the moment that I heard from reliable witnesses the evil deeds done by these men, it verified my suspicions that they were false and I left immediately.  

You do not know what was in my head and in my heart.  How can you say I was doing what I was doing because it was idolatry.  
Was it idolatrous to praise the Lord on Sunday?  I don't remember ever saying, "We praise you George Geftakys..." Was it idolatry to love the brethren?  Or to have a genuine concern for the lost and tell them the good news of Jesus?

Arthur

[Arthur]

Brent I disagree.

When I put my money in the box it was because I sincerely believed that it would be used for the work of the Lord.  I simply trusted that these men were telling the truth.  Shouldn't we have a child-like faith?  You may say, yes, in God.  Then I say, yes, exactly.  We trusted that this is where God had us and these are the leaders that he gave to us.  What cause would there be for me to think that they were lying?

Chuck,

Is it your job to "parse the guilt"?  Well, it is not difficult, there are the sheep and there are the wolves.  Two totally different natures.  

Arthur

[Peacefulg]

Brent, I would love to know where you the idea that giving of money is Idolatry.  

Nowhere in my bible does the Lord tell His people to give, and then be concerned with how every bit of it is use.

Taking your logic then the Lord should have condemed the women that gave all she had, because we know that the leader at that time were not the most trust worthy.  She gave because God said to give, and to give from the heart.  Also the Lord said do not let the right hand know what the left is doing.  We are also told to give freely from out hearts.  If you gave freely and from the heart you gave like this women.

The leaders of that day were doing shady things all around but still this women was commended (did she know that they were shady we do not know, we only know she gave from her heart).  It seems to me that some of you were like the other person in this story, Lord look I gave this and this so honor me.  

Correct me if I am wrong, but if you gave from the heart the Lord, saw that, and nowhere do you see he wanted you to keep a ledger personally.  God will take care of those that used it unwisely.  

[wmathews]

Thanks Chuck, Aaron, and Brent,
     I quite agree that culpability is difficult to parse out. that is why we need the Holy Spirit and the Word of God to search our hearts, divide between soul and spirit, serving man and serving God, Mal. 3:18. It seems to me that idolatry can be either the covetousness of personal gain (Col 3:5) or the serving of an idolatrous system. Perhaps we were deceived in serving that man-centered system, deception needs to be repented of too. The making or believing a lie are both wickedness, albeit of different expressions.  
This is a time for all of us involved to get before the Living God and allow Him to ruthlessly search our hearts to change, uproot, overturn, overturn, overturn any speck of idolatry, i.e. covetousness, fear deception and to once again or maybe for the first time truly allow Jesus Christ ALONE TO BE LORD OF ALL   . Folks, be absolutely real with God and one another: WE HAVE SINNED, in whatever our complicity, knowledge, etc.
I also want to make a point that in our marriage, my wife is one of the best and reliable early warning systems I know of. She knows me all too well. Sometimes just intuitively, but always worthy of my complete attention. I practice medicine in an emergency room, and it is well known that a good nurse can save you from many pitfalls and disasters. She may not know the details of biochemical pathways but she (female dominated professions) has a keen sense of when a patient is going to go bad. My wife is like that and that is why I love her. This is in spite of the years of teaching about female inferiority that since Eve was deceived, all women are going to lead us down the pathway to hell. That is male idolatry! Let's remember that male and female HE created them, and our roles/identities are complementary in order to express the living God. Anyway I digressed on the topic, remember there was a reason why John, wanting us to remember the last thing he said, spoke this: Little children (gullible ones), keep yourselves form idols (human or otherwise).
Wayne

[wmathews]

And Peaceful G, you make a great point about the motive of giving as unto the Lord and not men. Motive is everything to God. Thanks.

[Arthur]

Peacefulg, excellent point about the widow's mite.  And continuing on with that same logic, would you say that Hannah was idolatrous because she gave her child Samuel to the priesthood and we all know what kind of man Eli was.  George is even compared to Eli in an article on this site.  Would you say Hannah was idolatrous?

And David lived with Saul and submited to him, was David idolatrous in doing that?  He even refused to kill this man of the flesh, I guess that means he totally agreed with everything Saul did and stood for.  Um...no.  What kind of logic is that?

[karensanford]

Does anyone besides little me think that part of being a good steward of your/God's money is making sure that it is being used for His good?

I don't give money (though food, yes) to people begging on freeway offramps because common sense and statistics tell me that many of them will spend it on drugs or alcohol.  Even when their sign says "God Bless You" or "John 3:16".

I don't give money to those guys that stand outside Wal-Mart, holding coffee cans and wearing white so you will think that they are priests or some other clergy type.  I have no idea who their group is, and just because they call themselves "The Holy Order of Chosen Brethren" or whatever doesn't mean that they do anything glorifying with the money.

There are a lot of other examples of this analogy.  

I DO give money to World Vision, The Dr. Laura Foundation, Intervarsity, and the Seattle Union Gospel Mission because actual results and tangible fruit are available at my first request.  In fact, they send me this evidence on a monthly/quarterly/annually basis without even having to ask.  If I still doubted, I could drop by unannounced and see for myself.  I would be welcomed, not told that I needed to trust more and buzz off (oh, but keep giving Sister!!).

I am not saying that we (husband and I) are any better or morally/intellectually superior.  I never gave a dime to George's ministry, probably because I was never under it's spell.  If I had been, maybe I would have felt different.  But come on, think about it... isn't it responsible to make sure that God's money is being spent for God's purpose, and to hold those in charge accountable for doing so?  After all, you just gave to God's "purse".  Those who spent it are still mere men.

Many people have come to this site because they have "seen the light" and realized that they were duped.  Yet it is still hard to admit that they may have been duped in how they were convinced to steward their money.  "I gave by faith and God honors that"...but you also followed the Assembly teaching by faith...What is the difference?

[snowlynx]

Chuck and others,

Lets please be careful in accusing everyone of
idolatry.  This maybe the case for some but I know
of many saints who have followed the Lord, and
submitted to the leadership in faith to God.  I for
one have always loved the blessed Word of God
being shared, whether it was George, itenerate
brethren, or local brothers.  Not everywhere is/was
as bad as SLO and we need to consider our
accountability for blanket assumptions of God's
people in other places.

love in Christ,

Jacques

[Concerned Brother]

Karen, I am glad that you gave from your heart, and you are correct you need to be selective in who you give too.

That being said, does God tell you to give to such and such place, NO!
Does he tell you to give to the work of the Lord, Yes

Paul when he asked for collections to be taken up, he simply told the people that it was for the ministering of the saints in this location.  We do not have many examples of what else money was used for, but I ask this did they ever come to you and ask for money to pay the rent for the buildings they were meetings in, where did they the money to buy tracks.

Lastly there were times I was told do not worry about giving this week, since I had spent much on buying supplies for the campus work.  Also when I did buy supplies the brothers re-payed me from the Lord's treasury, since it was for the work of the Lord.  

I see this discussion going on and all of you make it out that the money was never used for any of the Lord's work.

Just like you cannot produce exact numbers of where went what, nowhere in the bible do we see the Lord asking for exact numbers.  These men will give an account to the Lord, the rest of the people will not, becasue the gave what the Lord put on their heart.

I for one cannot say, Hi my name is..... and I gave to the work of the Lord as He lead me, I'm therefore an Idoalter!

Lastly, not once was I ever pressured to give, if there is one thing that gets on most Christians nerves is the constant begging they hear from a lot of places.  We will not be able to do this or pay this, over and over it goes, but in the assembly rents were paid, tracks bought, food bought for outreaches, and the list goes on.  Lately on these boards I see people more quick to judge motives than actions, I also see these broad generalities being made.  I would not be suprised to see someone blame everyone for what George did.  People just like you want George and others to be accountable, you too need to be.  Maybe you gave out of Idoaltry, fine then you deal with it before the Lord, but do not drag us all down with you.  Be a Godly man and stand before God like one, because he sure is not going to listen to you drag everyone else through your mire on Judgement day.  who do YOU say I AM!

Lord Bless, and I am praying for all of us, we have much to learn, and much restoration to be made.

A concerned brother