St. Louis

[jesusfreak]

Wince away.  
Grace and peace to you, brother mine.  I've prayed for the Lord's intervention in this for a long time.  

Your Sister,
michelle

And to you. Inquire of the Lord and He will guide, ask and he will give you strength

[Roger Hommes]

I know I don't usually announce my visits in advance, but those saints perusing this website are the first to know that I'm coming to town for a week.  At this point, my schedule is mostly open.  I plan to be on the road tomorrow so either e-mail me TODAY or call the cell phone number posted earlier to schedule something!  I will gladly work in as many visits as I possibly can!  

Joe, I look forward to seeing you and April again!  

[Ken Fuller]

Michelle --

I know Mike is a great influence for my sons (they are 11 and 13).  
We left the assembly (on good terms) well over a year ago.   They still call him up and want to spend time with him.
He takes em out and does things with them and is a VERY positive influence.

Roger -- I'll call you sometime tomorrow.  I was trying to remember -- did you Vince and I ever live together at the same time?

Man .... that goes back years (remember the king size bed you moved into Rudy's small bedroom -- we literally had to climb over furniture to get to the small open square in the room)  Felix and Oscar -- that's how I always thought of you and I living together.

[Roger Hommes]

Oscar, I don't think I brought a bed with me to that garage room; it came with the place.  And it wasn't king-sized; it was court-jester-sized.  After the initial trauma wore off, I loved having you as a roommate.  Remember how our "quiet times" never coincided and neither of us ever had any silence, so we just called them "mellow times"?  

Vince lived with the Robinsons.  And I happen to know that both of you will soon complete your 40th lap around the sun...  

[Daniel Teater]

Michelle --

I saw that you were contacting Mike P.  Well yes he is my roomie and I am acutally using his computer to type this post.  If you are worried about Mike let me put some of your doubts to rest.  Mike is a man with a healthy set of personal convictions.  I can assure you that both of us have taken a long hard look at what has taken place as a result of the Geftakys ministry.  However, let me encourge you to write Mike yourself and find out how he is doing.  (He just got engaged and I am one hundred percent sure that he would be rejoicing if he could tell you about it.)  I know Mike (and everyone in St. Louis) is (are) looking ahead to what God has for us.  Nothing is out of the question and we all our humbly seeking His Will. Remember all of us in your prayers. I will tell Mike that there is someone who wants to talk with Him and if you want when I nail down his e-mail I can send it to you.  I think its teiri_76@yahoo.com, but don't quote me.

[Daniel Teater]

Oh by the way I am Ken Teater's son.

[Ken Fuller]

Oh yeah Felix, I had forgotten about our "mellow times".
I guess we were a rebellious pair from the beginning, weren't we?

As for the 40th lap -- well, just don't forget my 10-year-older twin brother Gus.  He always helps overshadow my milestone birthdays.

[Michelle]

Daniel - Thanks for the info!  That's great that he's engaged - I'm not heartbroken in the least!  (::sniffle:

But seriously, let him know that I'm a broker with EJones up on Dunn Road at New Florissant.  Sounds like he's living near there (Florissant phone and all).  He's welcome to stop by anytime.

God bless you all!
-michelle

p.s. If anyone is looking for a church, check out Covenant Pres on Ballas Rd.  Talk about a grace-filled church!  

[VinnieGalati]

Michelle,

You are correct and I applaud your boldness. Unfortunately, the legalism you suspect in the St. Louis group can be confirmed by myself, a regular for 11 years.  I was there when Luke and Daniel were newborns. I stayed till 1994. I want the best for their walks with the Lord;  that is why I am hesitant in confirming your thoughts. I fear that the pat answer will now be we are not associating with the "Geftakys Ministry" any longer. What??? You are the Geftakys ministry. I guess George could say the same comment and all is better. All of the control, abuse and mishandling to  so many lives and wounded souls can now be open summarily discounted and vanish. The issue is " Who controls Me?"  Man or God. LB's or the Holy Spirit. If that lesson is not supremely burned on the hearts and minds of all in St. Louis, God help them. Say goodbye to George- even though for years, he was the ultimate authority- Go find out what Bro. George thinks and we will wait to hear from on high.  Now he is discounted after years of covering up sin and we cast him away as a fallen man within weeks.  Can they honestly and with a pure heart do that? Who will they now turn to for authority? This is the problem my friends; you do not need Bro. Geroge's. You never did. You do not need LB's. You have what you need. You lack nothing.
That was what God so gloriously showed me back in 1994, thanks to the ministry of Bob George. I read his book entitled Classic Christianity. It is autobiographical. He came to a crisis point in his life. He was burned out. This Christian life was not working. He started over and let the Lord show him the problem. " You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free". Not you shall know the word, but the truth. The assembly knows alot about the word, but little about the truth.  Bob George's ministry taught me I was (past tense) completely forgiven. Not I will be if I ask. But I was totally forgiven of all my sins when I received Christ. There is no more any offering for sin. What a thought. Consider that. You can not be more forgiven than you are right now. You never will be. It is not conditional. If you can get that one revelation, you can unlock the Grace of God and begin to truly understand the New Covenant for the first time in your life. The assembly is ignorant of these things. The book of Hebrews spells out the New Covenant, but I was blind to it for so many years. You can be set free.
That is exactly what happened to me in 1994. I was overjoyed, but naive. I went to the LB's in St. Louis with this gospel. I tried to share this cool water with the beleagured saints. But to no avail. I was met with only resistance, which got progressively worse.  I was publicly humiliated by brother George on a video seminar one Sunday afternoon. I was shocked he was talking about me.  I was not allowed to share this with the saints in ministry. Then it went further. I was told not to share these things "in private conversations" with the saints. Like what we are doing right now.  This would not be allowed. THIS conversation would be stifled and controlled. Shame on them!   I tell you this was the final straw. It was then that the Holy Spirit said to me it is time to go. I thought of the verse: "Is it better to obey men or God"  I could not hold back such a liberating message of freedom. Gal 5:1 Stand therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has set us free.    Rom: There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus".  Eph 1:7: "In HIM, we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins"  My friend, answer me this- are you In Him? YES, you are. What do you then possess- the forgiveness of sins. This is not some future tense verse. This is not "if" we ask. Do you ask to be redeemed each day? Why not?  Because He saved you once for all. Even the assembly acknowledges this truth. The same is true of our forgiveness. We stand in forgiveness. We are his sons and daughter. To hell with this nonsense of "inheriting the kingdom" being some conditional blessing. This is the rotten core of the "Geftakys Ministry" lie. If that not be banished, put up another straw man in George's place, and the assembly will continue to rot in its legalism.
Believe it or not, I say all these things in love. I was there 11 years, not as an outsider. Please consider these things. For my stand on these things, I was put out essentially.  But I was put out into the palms of the Good Shepherd. Thank God- He will never leave you or forsake you.  I felt alone and tossed out by man, but undergirded by my Savior. This is what I hope the men of the assembly can really put there eyes, hearts and arms around.  This is no way to treat a saint of God.  Not to get any sympathy. Because I knew all along why they were doing this. They were and many still are blind. They had no clue. This was all done "in defense of the faith". They were protecting the saints from false doctrine like the New Covenant of Grace, so that they could drink in the poison of legalism. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. After you unlock the grace of God in your life, this charade this ministry has built up comes crashing down. You see you are free. You are loved. You are accepted. It doesn't get any better than this. You don't get better in God's eyes.  That was Satans great problem with me staying. Satan knew it, but I don't think the LB's knew it. They just knew I couldn't be allowed to share those things. What would happen to the saints? What would control their behavior. If we are totally forgiven, then can we do as we please?  Is not that the same question the apostly Paul was always confronted with: "Shall we sin that grace may abound?"  Why were they asking him this. Because he was teaching the unconditonal love of God seen through the New Covenant. Jesus said at the Cross: "It is finished"  My freinds, He completed the work. I rest in His finished work. Thank God- I belong to HIM.  God Bless all and I invite your responses, questions and challenges. VPG

[Roger Hommes]

Michelle, brevity never was one of Vince's strengths...  
He just got all full o' the Holy Ghost there for a minute and got to preachin'.  

Yes, he was sent away and we were told not to talk to him because he had taken hold of a teaching that said once you get your fire insurance you can do whatever you want.  

Evidently, he's doing okay.  

[Sparks]

Ok, I just need clarification.    Are you (Vince) saying that if we sin, we don't need to repent?  Do you believe there will be consequenses to our sins?  The bible says that if I do something to my brother is the same as doing it to God.  Now if I was to hit my brother, I believe the bible calls me to ask forgivness from my brother, AND since it is against God too, I must ask His forgivness.  I was just a little confused and would just like you to clear this up for me, please.

I would also like to whole heartedly agree with what Luke wrote below:

God is doing an awesome work here in St. Louis.  He is getting rejuvination, healing, and breakthrough in the lives of everyone.  There have been a few tears, but many smiles.

God IS working in St. Louis,  and may He continue to do this work.
 -Mark Teater
(Also a son of Ken Teater)

[Roger Hommes]

Vince, show mercy.  Be brief.  

Mark, I think this issue is going to be re-examined pretty thoroughly in the coming months.  Yes, if you sin against your brother, you absolutely need to seek his forgiveness.  The bigger doctrine is what effect it will have on your eternal destiny if you don't reconcile with him.  

By the way, be sure to check the kid's page.  There's a reunion in the making.  

[Michelle]

Errr.....    Hmmmm.

Sinning requires repentance, but then you must accept God's forgiveness.  No repentance because of "fire insurance" is licentiousness.  No acceptance because you're "not a good person" and would prefer to beat yourself to death with a Bible is legalism.

Okay, in a really, really small nutshell, that is.

Although he may argue with me, I had a really good teacher when I first came to faith.  (We all make mistakes, but ... ooh, grace!)  I was also blessed with a wonderful church, good friends and leadership I could count on.  They accepted questions and challenges gracefully, and worked hard to see the flock grow in the Lord.  

Brief example: One night I had an appt with my asst pastor.  I was mad - furious - at him, and very hurt by a gross injustice that had occurred within both my church and a sister church.  I confronted him about it, honestly and straight out, without pulling any punches.  Much painful, heartfelt discussion ensued, and he apologized for his part in the wrongs and asked for my forgiveness.  

Grace is so foreign, it never fails to amaze me.  However, because I have been the recipient of such grace, anything that flies in the face of that grace revolts me, nearly automatically.  By reflex.

Thanks, Vince, for the confirmation that my original assumptions were correct.  But it was so easy to spot from the first time I heard about it, even though I was a "baby Christian" at the time, that really I already knew.  I knew from the outset that something was just not right.  What I read in the Bible didn't mesh with what I was hearing about the group.  It made no sense.  And trying to refute it was futile, which in turn was heartbreaking.  What I've heard of this system is not grace, and someone would have to work extra-super-hard to convince me otherwise.  Like I said before, the Lord's intervention in this is answered prayer.

Ooooh...  Okay, I'm on completely foreign turf here.  The outsider who jumped into the middle of something she isn't involved with.  I'm not even logged in, nor will I be!  Yikes.  Typical big-mouthed me!

Thanks for the info on Mike.  I wish him, and all of you, well.  If anyone wants to talk, or wants an objective(-ish) ear, feel free to contact me at realityfuel@hotmail.com.  I don't break confidentiality.  

In Him,
-m.

<><  
proving that God can use the strangest people since May 17, 1998

[Ken Fuller]

Vince,

Let's save the doctrinal arguments for another place and another time.  There are forums on this board for that.   And there are certainly better times for that.

All I know now is -- whether he is saved or not -- george has some SERIOUS repenting to do

But I'll also add that I am a recipient of grace that God forbid most people should have to experience.  And much of that grace is seen in the saints here in St Louis.

Yes, we were SOG (servants of george) in many many ways.  But there is a love and true concern amongst some of the brethren here that I'm beginning to see wasn't known in many of the assemblies.

I honestly have no grudges or bitterness in any way against any of the saints here.  Yes, I could "judge" different people, but I refuse to.  God can do that.

I know the ones who poured there hearts and souls out to Toni and myself.  I saw the tears, and painful horror in people's faces as they watched me absolutely turn my back and run out on God.

I know the ones that truly were concerned.  Sure, everyone had their "advice" and "opinions" for both Toni and myself.  But it was the sincerity amongst those that were truly heartbroken and concerned that in many ways preserved my soul from total shipwreck.  

I guess having been forgiven much, I'm learning to forgive (learning)

[sue xander]

Ken, I am so glad that you had a good experience there in St. Louis when you needed it the most.   I know though it was not all hugs and kisses there for you either.  But as you said you can choose to judge or to forgive.  That is indeed yourchoice.  There have been a lot of wounded people from these lodges.  A lot of hurts.  A lot of haunts.  A lot of damage.  Yes good times too don't get me wrong.  I experienced a lot of those with you as a matter of fact.  But you cannot erase them even if you forgive them.  People have to work through them.  Everyone does it differently.  Some do it quicker than others, some do it slower.  Sounds like you have quickly healed.  But there are big problems with legalism, etc... in these lodges.  This is not peoples imagination.  These bad and aweful things have gone on.  For some they have gone on at their local lodges.  All the bad is not just in Fullerton.  This I know you know too.  We can't walk in each others shoes.  I can't walk in yours and you can't walk in mine, etc.....   These issues need to be aired.  People need to know that there is life outside of that lodge life.  It is the Christ life.  That is the only life that is worth living.