St. Louis

[Laura]

Ok, I got most of what you were saying except for the first part of the second paragraph. Are you saying we never need to ask God's forgiveness. Just curious.

[JS]

 I would challenge you to find one verse or reference where the apostle Paul tell the Christian to ask God for forgiveness after being saved. You won't.

How about John?  1 John 1:9   If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


1 John was written to believers.  John includes himself in the verse,  "if we confess"
Here's other verses that reveal who John was writing to.
1 John 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you.
1John 3:13  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

Lord Bless you,
Joel

[wolverine]

One more point on this...

Vince, (Hi, by the way)

If we sin fellowship is broken between us and the Lord...how do you then explain renewing that which was seperated by our sin?  Does it just get better over time or what? Something has to be done to restore us and remove our transgressions or did you have something else in mind? Thanks...


Oh, and Michelle...I love the FREEDOM FIGHTER signature...go CREED!

[MichelleDJ]

Darn, Joel, you beat me to it!  

And thanks Paul.

"I'm just a freedom fighter -
No remorse
Raging on in holy war
Soon there'll come a day when you're face to face with me"

(I'm a bit of a music nut, too.)

[VinnieGalati]

Hey saints,

   Sorry for the delay in response to questions from many for some clarification and  explanation of additional verses.   I will attempt to umbrella answer questions & comments from Paul R, Mark T, Michelle, JS (is this Jerry Starr), Scott, and Laura.  Man if you miss a day on this BB, you will fall behind. I do appreciate this discourse and again welcome feedback.

   My challenge was to find a verse Paul tells the Christian to ask for forgiveness from God after his/her salvation. No one has brought one forth. Do you not find that most curious?  Such an important doctrine as this, yet we can find several references Paul tells us to forgive each other as Christ forgave us or that Paul concludes the forgiveness issue is over. Col 2:13-14,  Acts 26:17-18, 10:43,  1Jn 2:12, 2Cor 5:18-19- I could go on and on with references.
The only one that deals with forgiveness in context of confession is 1Jn1:9.  This is the Word of God, so where does it fit?  Is forgiveness the result of confession? This is what most Christians believe. If we don't confess then we must conclude He does not forgive.  This sounds right to our human way of thinking.  But what about all the other passages I just mentioned. How is it that you can be totally forgiven and then insist you must confess to get forgiven?  That's all this will do is make you preoccupied with one thing- Your Sin!  How can you ever rest in His finished work?  So now instead of slaughtering a bull or goat, we just need to confess. That is a lot cleaner way to deal with my sin. But is that all the New Covenant is? Cleaner? How can we build an entire theological doctrine on one verse?  If true, it would be all over the New Testament.  Paul knew we were forgiven once for all, that is why he never tied the two (confession and forgiveness) together.
1John 1:9 is an invitation to the unbelievers (gnosics) who had crept in and infiltrated the believers to come into true fellowship. These heretics denied that Christ came in the flesh, hence the context of 1Jn 1:1-4 (we have seen Him, our hands have handled Him, etc...)  These heretics also denied we could sin, hence John says when we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us.  Do you see this is a plea for these people to acknowledge their gross error and face the truth about their sin.  Read verse 8 and verse 10 (context). " If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us ".   My friends, if you are a believer, the truth is in you. He is the truth. How can a believer not have the truth in Him? This is not a believer. Then go to 1Jn2:1- John makes a transition to talk to the believer. My little children...and then look at verse 12: "I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake".  Could he be any clearer?
 
     I hope this helps clear up this one passage. Even if you do not agree with my interpretation of 1John, I will challenge you.  Let's agree to disagree about this one verse.  Now, let us look at this subject using the rest of the entire New Testament.  Show me your reasoning from Paul's writings, from the book of Hebrews, from anywhere else in the N.T.
Think of Heb 8:12. Here the writer is defining the New Coveant and what does he say: "...their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."  That is exactly what He does. We are forgiven once and for all.  God Bless- VPG

[Phil Strangman]

Vince, if you're saying we only need to confess our sin after we're saved and not ask God's forgiveness, do you than agree with everyone on this board saying that George needs to repent (I understand repentance to be different from confession)?

It's those kinds of things which make me not understand what you're saying. I John 2:1-2 says "if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And he is the propitiation for our not sins: and for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Why do WE need an advocate and why do WE need propitiation now? I John 1:9 says "he IS faithful and just to forgive us..." Doesn't IS indicate the present, that He is faithful to forgive us in this present time? Why didn't that verse say "he WAS faithful and just to forgive us" referring to when Jesus died and paid the penalty for our sins? Why does the Bible say that us Christians who live now have an advocate? Why have an advocate if God doesn't forgive us now?

Peace

[VinnieGalati]

Phil, you're lucky. I just did a lengthy reply to your questions and somehow lost it while posting. So here go again. And thanks for the question.

George has offended many- he needs to acknowledge what he has done and make it right with those he offended.  This is the responsibility of walking in love toward our brother/sister.  We see an excellent example of this given in Eph 4:28-32 "Let him who steals steal no more:...And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.  Notice Paul is dealing with a serious offense (sin). What does he tell the brother involved in stealing to do? Does he say that he should first confess his sin to God and ask for forgiveness? No, he tells him to STOP IT- Steal no more.  And notice in verse 32:  "forgiving each other (present tense), just as God in Christ also has forgiven you (past tense).  Why did Paul change tenses? Was it an oversite on his part. Every time he references a believers forgiveness it is in the past tense. See also Eph 1:7, Col 1:14, Col 3:13, et al.  I hope you see the distinction here. We are definately to ask one another for forgiveness, but we already have been forgiven before our Father. We acknowledge this forgiveness, but we do not need to ask for it. That would really mean His work was not enough.  The Christian world has misapplied this one verse in 1John1:9 and thereby negated the primary message of the New Covenant. The finished work of the cross. Think of 2Cor 5:19 "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself not counting their sins against them. "   The gospel is better news than you could ever imagine. Totally forgiven. Phil, search the Scriptures to see if these things are so. I asked you in my last post to agree to disagree about 1John1:9. Look at the rest of the New Testament. You come back to me with a response using this very verse for prooftext.  Thats okay, I have no problem clarifying my position, but remember- we must get the big picture first. If  you don't understand the New Covenant first, you will be tripped up all over this passage. How can you reconcile your interpretation with the rest of the New Testament. It will leave you double-minded.  This whole subject of being in and out of fellowship with God is another assembly taught fallacy. It all ties into a performance based outlook. Gaining favor with God by what I am doing, rather than resting in His finished work on my behalf. Maybe I will get the inheritance.  I kind of doubt if this post is going to clear you up on your question. I started to see these things in 1994. I struggled and searched the Word to prove what I was seeing was wrong. I was taught under the assembly mindset. But to my dismay, I could not convince myself from the Word. The Spirit of God showed me.  I challenge any to prove from the Word what I am saying is false. I can add nothing to a finished work. Here's an assembly stumper verse: Heb 10:10 "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."  Have been sanctified? What? 2Cor 6:11 "And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.."  Think of the context and who he was telling this too. I don't know how I read that verse in the assembly for 11 years and did not see that. I have been sanctified.  At salvation, I got it all! Rejoice, this is good news.  Anyway Phil, I will stop now. This was the short version. I am sure we will be continuing this thread- I hope so anyway.  But do not let one verse negate the truth of the whole New Testament. God Bless- VPG

[Phil Strangman]

Vince,

Isn't acknowledging the same as confessing? What's the difference?

You are right in that Colossians 3:13 says, "...as Christ forgave you." He sure did! What He did on the cross was so amazing! I do not deny, Vince, that what Christ did was once and for all! However, Ephesians 1:7 and Colossians 1:14 say we have the forgiveness. You are also right in that we must look at a verse and relate to the Bible. So when I relate 1 John 1:9 to those verses that say we have forgiveness of sins, what does this culminate to? We have forgiveness of sins...and if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. That seems to suggest that we need to confess our sins when we realize we've done wrong because we have the forgiveness of sins (we still have it, it didn't run out). The blood of Jesus Christ never fails! But if we don't address our sin because we don't need to confess our sin because we've already been forgiven...I don't know, that makes it easy to ignore things we've done wrong to me...If we don't need to confess, why even worry about righteousness then?

It's not performance based (although I've done it that way before), it's because we love God and His commandments.

Peace

[VinnieGalati]

So Phil,

   Let's follow your logic. I have a question. What happens if I don't confess my sin to God then?  Am I not forgiven?

   The verse does say If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.  Would that mean the opposite would have to be true also.  If we do not confess our sins, He does not forgive us?

    Then, what state does that leave us in?  What about the verse in Hebrews. "Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness".   Is Christ going to shed His blood over in order for you to be forgiven. Do you see the break-down logically here. Do you see the contradiction?

      If not Phil, its okay. I really mean that.  We can differ on this point. You keep asking God to forgive you each time you sin. I will walk in the forgiveness He has given me.  But we can still be brethren in fellowship with one another and with the Lord. Another question-why did the brothers in St. Louis have to brand that way of looking at the Scriptures heretical and barr it from discussion with the saints. You see how the control of man can stifle the Spirit of God?  Anyway Phil, we are covering many points here. We should stick to my first question.  According to your understanding and interpretation of this verse, what happens if I don't confess my sins?

[MichelleDJ]

Okay, hang on.  

"This, then, is how you should pray:
   " 'Our Father in heaven,
   hallowed be your name,
     your kingdom come,
   your will be done
       on earth as it is in heaven.
    Give us today our daily bread.
    Forgive us our debts,
       as we also have forgiven our debtors.
    And lead us not into temptation,
   but deliver us from the evil one. ' For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Isn't Jesus teaching us to pray here?  And doesn't He call us to confess our sins to God?  So.......  Call me crazy, but I'm going to stick with Him.

[VinnieGalati]

Michelle,

Thanks for the verse. When I introduced the topic and the challenge to find  New Testament verses, I knew the two that would come up. 1Jn1:9 and this passage in Matthew.  Both texts that can be understood in context. This is the wonderful thing about getting the big picture of the difference between the two Covenants-Old and New. If you would of kept on quoting that passage you would see where the Lord goes with the very next statements: "For if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly Father forgive you"  Matt 6:15.  I would ask you to consider this. Under which covenant was Christ when He was on the earth? A covenant or will requires one thing. Death must take place. When does a will go into effect? Upon the death of the testator right? That is right out of Hebrews. Heb 9:16-17 "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator"  What is the writer talking about? Have you ever thought about it? He is talking about the differences between the Old and New Covenant. You see Christ came to first bury men under the demands of the Law.  In effect, He was showing men the utter helpless condition we were in to be holy and righteous by trying to uphold the law.  That is the context of this verse.  

To further illustrate, let's say you are sharing the gospel with someone. You tell them Christ has paid the full price for their redemption. They must only believe and their sins will be forgiven and they will receive eternal life. They ask if they can receive this gift by faith.   But wait, there is a catch. You stop them and ask first- Have you forgiven everyone for every sin committed against you?  If not, you can not be forgiven.  Of course you don't;  you see this is in the same vein as calling your brother fool or lusting in your heart. If you do these things, you have committed murder and adultery.  These are the stringent demands of the law, meant to drive people to the question: Who then can be saved?  
I hope I did not lose you, but again it becomes vital to see the big picture. Not just take one verse out of context and build doctrine upon it.  
Please do not misunderstand my point here. I do not argue for some licentious, anything goes lifestyle. God forbid!  God has called us to share in His very Life.  What a privilege and calling.  The first step though, is to see the sin issue between us and God has been dealt with once and for all- never to be dealt with again. We can never go on to truly understand His grace until this occurs in our spiritual journey.   Now the issue is one of responsiblity- a noble, mature calling.  How am I treating my brother or sister. Am I walking in love?  Not walking any longer in fear or condemnation. God might punish me. It's time we once and for all grow up and move from that childish way of thinking.  Gal 4:24-26 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.  For ye are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus".   A noble calling indeed!
I hope this helps shed some light on the Matthew verse. VPG  (open to responses and questions)

[MichelleDJ]

Because I'm not the end-all and be-all of Scripture, I seek wise teachers as well.    John MacArthur has this to say on 1Jn1:7-9.

A genuine Christian walks habitually in the light (truth and holiness) not in darkness (falsehood and sin).  Their walk also results in cleansing from sin as the Lord continually forgives His own.  Since those walking in the light share the character of God, they will be habitually characterized by His holiness, indicating their true fellowship with Him.  A genuine Christian does not walk in darkness but only in light, and cleansing from sin continually occurs.

Not only did the false teachers walk in darkness but went so far as to deny totally the existence of a sin nature in their lives.  If someone never admits to being a sinner, salvation cannot result.  Not only did the false teachers make false claims to fellowship and disregard sin, they are also characterized by deceit regarding sinlessness.

Continual confession of sin is an indication of genuine salvation.  While the false teachers would not admit their sin, the genuine Christian admitted and forsook it.  The term "confess" means to say the same thing about sin as God does; to acknowledge His perspective about sin.  While v7 is from God's perspective, v9 is from the Christian's perspective.  Confession of sin characterizes genuine Christians, and God continually cleanses those who are confessing.  Rather than focusing on confession for every single sin as necessary, John has especially in mind here a settled recognition and acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness.

(From "The MacArthur Study Bible")

[VinnieGalati]

Thanks Michelle,

I agree with that synopsis of the passage. It is very similar to what I was sharing. A believer walks in light, not darkness. He/she walks in continual forgiveness because they are in Christ. The gnostics had come into the group and were denying the sin nature. John was exposing this heresy.  Here is the point I want to get across and MacArthur makes it as well- Rather than focusing on confession for every single sin... Confession and forgiveness are not integrally linked together. This is unfortunately what keeps many Christians focusing only on their sins and constant need for forgiveness. This issue has been dealt with once and for all. Praise God for that. If you have not struggled in this way, that's great. I guess I am attempting to reach the believer in that frame of mind so as to set him/her free.  I believe we are on the same sheet of music though. Thanks, VPG

[JS]

 "For if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly Father forgive you"  Matt 6:15.  I would ask you to consider this. Under which covenant was Christ when He was on the earth?

 

Luke 16:16  The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Matthew 28:19-20  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, (Gentiles) baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:   Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

What Jesus taught applies to us as Christians.  

To further illustrate, let's say you are sharing the gospel with someone. You tell them Christ has paid the full price for their redemption. They must only believe and their sins will be forgiven and they will receive eternal life. They ask if they can receive this gift by faith.   But wait, there is a catch. You stop them and ask first- Have you forgiven everyone for every sin committed against you?  If not, you can not be forgiven.  

Exactly.  So why would John tell unbelievers  " If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."   That's not how you get saved.  John 3:16 is how you get saved.  John is preaching another gospel if he is refering to unbelievers in 1 John 1:9

Why would Jesus tell unbelievers "For if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly Father forgive you"  So as an unbeliever, all I need to do is forgive others and God will forgive me?  Again, that is not how someone gets saved.

1 John is written to believers, the question in 1 John  is not "are you saved?"  the question is "are you abiding?"
When we abide we are in the light.  It is possible for a child of God to be in  darkness.
 I John 2:7a,9-10 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.  He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Is it possible for a believer to hate his brother? Yes, when I do fall into this sin I need to cofess my sin and by faith, allow the Lord to bring me back in the light.

1 John 2:28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Why would John encourage believers to do something that they are already doing, or something that is automatic?  

Vince, I believe that Jesus Christ accomplished for us a full salvation on the cross.  God has pronounced us righteous and holy.  Now He is in the process of making us holy.  He wants to make us more like Christ in our thoughts, words, and actions.  I know I have a ways to go.  It's not by me trying to be more like Christ, but it is by allowing Him to live through me.

On the most part we agree, but I think on a few point you are mistaken.

God Bless You,
Joel

[MichelleDJ]

In Board Speak, this is what we call a "hijacked topic."

However...

I don't want you to miss a particular sentence in what MacArthur wrote:

"Continual confession of sin is an indication of genuine salvation."

This seems to be missing from the general argument.