Re: The Appearance of Evil

[Sebastian Andrew]

  ???My apologies. I should have started a new topic with my last post. So here it is I think.

[karensanford]

Hi, Sebastian.  

Being a young woman myself, I am well aware of the moves that older men make on us, thinking they are being smooth or subtle.  I can tell you that if a man tried to get me to platonically massage any part of him (and I WASN'T a massage therapist or other similar), I would either firmly reject him or tell him off.  If this man happened to be a pastor (or worse, a pastor who fancies himself as God's right hand man and above reproach), my words and contempt for him would be far stronger because of his position of authority and trust.  So...I probably don't have to tell you this, but it sounds as though GG was abusing his authority to step WAY out of line.  It just seems to kind of fit with all the other behavior, though.  If he needed a massage, the appropriate thing to do in order to avoid the appearance of evil would be to hire a male MT.  However...when you are the boss and no one dare question you...who cares about appearances?

 

[karensanford]

PS-I forgot to add this thought to my last post:  The fact that George was asking, "does this bother you sister?" or whatever indicates that he knew that there was something to be bothered about!  I don't know him, but I do know men who are that type that hate women (either subconsciously or otherwise), and they seem to enjoy making us uncomfortable on purpose.  

[trockman]

Karen and Sebastian:

I could not agree more with Karen's observations.  I have a TON of information on GG's background, before he began the Assembly.  It is chock full of multiple incidents of, shall we say, pecadillos and "marriage difficulties."

I am being very careful what I am saying here, notice that I didn't make a direct accusation.  I need to find the time to contact 2 more sources, and obtain signed Affadavits from 4 people before I publicly tell the story of the real GG.

There is nothing wrong with hand and foot massage.  but there is something wrong with unskilled young females being chosen to do it, when you preach about avoiding the appearance of evil, and make everyone else live under the most stringent rules designed to separate the sexes, because they can't control themselves.

I think there is some psychological term for all this, but my take on it is that every area that GG makes a big deal, and really lays down the law, is an area where he is absolutely guilty himself.

Speaking hypothetically, if GG, or a person like him, had a problem with money....then in order to assuage their guilt they might try to get 400 followers who never get into debt.  Sound familiar?

A person can apply this in other area as well....Massage perhaps.

Here's a funny fact, George's new secretary is long and blonde, a former professional ballerina.  I am not aware of her typing, dictation, computer, or accounting skills, but i am sure an ex-dancer would be highly trained in all of these areas.

Brent

[Sebastian Andrew]

Hello:
After I became privy to the private massage-see "Avoiding the Appearance of Evil" under George's So-Called Books- I ran into another episode involving a (married) leading brother. One day I entered the kitchen of a Brothers House
where this LB and single sister lived. She was giving him a shoulder massage. I must have had a funny look on my face-deja vu?- because they responded with expressions that showed me that they had a bad conscience about it. I quickly excused myself. Now I am not a prude, and I really don't believe there was any other intention behind this. I knew both of them pretty well; but the standard in the homes regarding this type of behavior was well-known, or so I thought. This sister was not trained as a masseuse, and the LB had a wife who could have done at least as good a job. Why didn't she do it then?
The point I'm getting to is this-did George's personal behavior(see the article refered to earlier) as "Servant of God Who is to be Emulated" have anything to do with this?
Put simply , George did this so it must be acceptable.... He is a godly man, so it's only reasonable that a wrong conclusion couldn't be drawn from this, right?
The conclusion I wish to draw from this is that the almost god-like status of the leaders (under George) has skewed their judgement of right and wrong and of what is an abuse of authority or position. The leadership is approaching almost total dependence on George to model for them what a servant of God is. How sad!

[trockman]

Hello Sebastian

You have excellent insight.  George has indeed reproduced himself, (and Betty also) in many of his followers, especially the the chief leaders and workers.  They model themselves after him, and were able to be ensnared by him, because they have similiar weaknesses.  

What we are going to find out is that this sort of thing is much more prevalent than many would like to believe. Think about it, Why else would they have such draconian rules regarding contact between men and women?  Perhaps because they know how weak they are, and project that onto others.

BTW, please register so I can send you a private message.

Brent

[Aslan213]

Hi Everyone,

Brent, when you mentioned about the chief leaders and workers modeling themselves after GG because they have similar "character traits", it reminds me of those I've known.  Let's see...those good examples we were to follow.  They were impatient, very temperamental, condescending, very like George in certain ways.    In hindsight, I saw those traits come out under times of stress and whenever the "testimony" was threatened.  These traits came out whenever their ministry or decisions was questioned.

Of course, "we are all still learning."  I don't know of any massages that went on in the valley.  But I do remember when my wife and I spent the night at TG's house prior to leaving on the Seattle L.E.S. Team.  I saw two single sisters in a room with him, massaging his hands and feet.  I thought it was so odd at the time, but I was afraid to say anything.  I wondered, at the time, what the sister's were thinking.  Did they offer or were they told to comply?

When I had sister's in my house, then I understood.  I found the sisters were so indoctrinated that if I wanted to, I could ask for anything and get it.  This really bothered me because the sisters even expected me to lead in this harsh way.  It took me 2 years to show them how their thinking was wrong in minor ways.  I never was given the five years I thought it would take to show them the error of their thinking on a bigger scale.

There's more of this.  Especially how a LB told me to deal with issues in the home.  One of the sisters has since told me, she could tell when I listened to the Lord and when I listened to a certain LB.

Eric

[Kimberley Tobin]

I have an interesting story to relate regarding massage.  I have a bad back (two car accidents) and as a birthday gift, my sister paid for a professional masseuse to give me a massage   (a woman-BTW).  The top dog in our assembly found out about it and he gave my husband a lashing (at the Starbucks Confessional).  It seems that there is a double standard out there concerning massages.  What is ok for the goose is not ok for the gander!  Doesn’t surprise me!  Does it surprise anyone else?

[sebastian andrew]

Dear webmaster/editor:
I can't access my PM, nor can I use them. If it warrants the effort on your end can you send the Pm to:

sebastianandrew@hotmail.com

I will just stay under guest for the time being.
Sebastian Andrew

[Kimberley Tobin]

Dear webmaster/editor:

I don't think this is where you post this type of message, but since Sebastian had a similar problem (I think Rachel, as well) I thought I would make it easier to see it in the same place.  

When you first come to the bulletin board and sign in you are welcomed.  However, numerous times, upon successfully signing in, I attempt to access the Member's Registration List or go to a new page and want to post and I am no longer signed in but recognized simply as a guest.

Could you clue us neophyte computer people in as to what the problem is??

[editor]

Hello Everyone!

I apologize for you guys getting logged out! I haven't figured out who to blame yet, but it will probably be microsoft, or someone like that. It is certainly not OUR fault.  

However, it is easy to fix. Just RELOG, at the top of the page, hit relog, and type in your info.  I have not gotten bumped after a relog, but if it happens, relog again!

We are working on it, but it is not an easy fix, it has to do with something on the host server....maybe it can be their fault

Anyway, you will find all of your private messages there.

Happy Thanksgiving.  God is Good, and His Mercy endures forever!

editor

[Sebastian J Andrew]

Hello:
A club advisor was contacted about a campus bible study with the generic-sounding name Bible Study Club. Among the questions asked was group affiliation-where did they originate, the name of the church/ministry, are they part of a larger group, et cetera. The advisor said that they were a student-led group by local evangelicals. After the second correspondence, when asked directly if this was part of the Geftakys ministry, she affirmed that it was. It turns out that she had met TG and knew about GG, and that she worked with the assembly occasionally on campus. Some relevant information and references were given for her consideration.
For the sake of clarity I will mention here that she is not(at least yet) an assembly member, and is a worker for a major well-known evangelical organization that in other places-CA-doesn't recommend anyone attend the assembly(or their studies) due to "cultic tendencies on a sociological level." This, among other things, was pointed out to her. A faculty advisor is necessary on this campus to have recognized club status; and she is, by her role as advisor, giving the assembly the opportunity to work on campus there. This was pointed out to some of her higher-ups.
The reader may have noticed that she had to be asked directly about the group affiliation, almost as if she didn't want to divulge it unless absolutely necessary. There are other instances where assembly campus workers were contacted in the same fashion-same questions,and so on-and wouldn't reveal their affiliation unless asked directly if they were a Geftakys ministry outreach. Sometimes they would say "...we are like Calvary Chapel...." [shadow=red,left,300]Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player.TEXT[/shadow] They are misleading others who in good faith ask fair questions. One is reminded of the "heavenly deception" doctrine of the Unification Church(MOONIES) where the adherant is told that lying to get donations, other adherants, etc. is O.K. because the world is so messed up that lying to defeat Satan is noble. Is this an example of a persecution complex that the assembly has? Are the leaders telling the campus workers to cover up who they really are? I believe I know why George doesn't want his name on the ministry(because he has too much past history to cover up). How do the saints rationalize- to themselves- this cover-up I wonder?
As far as the faculty advisor mentioned earlier a couple of things: I tried to gently warn her w/o any name-calling or exaggerated accusations. I believe she is being used, is probably getting a lot of warm attention like all of us did at the early stage of our involvement, and may be close to joining up. Anyone with any close contacts with this major Christian organization-read between the lines-and would like to get involved in this one please e-mail(no PMs) me for more information. I look forward to others observations, input, comments.
HAPPY THANKSGIVING
"and skip the meeting if it interferes with family gathering" ( I liked that one).
Sebastian Andrew

[trockman]

The "saints"on campus are in either of two categories:

1.) Those who are new and know nothing and are serving in sincere ignorance
2.) Those who, over the years, have seared their concience to the point where they no longer have the capactiy to rationalize anything.  These people tell blatant lies as a matter of course, on a daily basis.  I can provide tons of documentation to back up that claim, if what you are reading on the websites is not enough.

So, there is no need to rationalize.  Not just anyone can head up a campus "work."

Brent

[Lurker]

It has been a long time since I have been around.  I want to know one thing,

why has it taken so long for someone to speak up about this.  there must be hundreds (thousands) of people who visited and bolted, why has there been silence since the last 20 years.

I gather from the main website that Steve Iron's left a decade ago.  Was this without effect?  Are people being extorted/threatened?

What gives?

[Rachel]

Oh where to begin.  People have spoken up for decades.  When you read the letters of people who left in the past you see the problems and observations were the same.

The primary obstacle in the past was getting the information out there.  When the Irons left they tried to send information by mail but it was ineffective for a number of reasons.  It was clumsy trying to get the information to so many people.  

Also as you can tell from posts, the assembly is very good at damage control.  When a person with potientially damaging information is starting to question the assembly leadership starts to make little comments about that person "struggling".  Then as the person gets closer to making a break the leadership starts to publicly shame that person.  They may start to take "responsibilities" away from that person and warn people away from asking that persons advice or getting to close.  When the person finally leaves, they are slandered both by GG and by the leadership in the meetings and worker's meetings.  Past failures or sins of that person will be brought up and in many cases exaggerated for effect.  It will be either implied or stated that the person has gone back to his or her sinful ways.  If the person is extremely dangerous to the assembly they will excommunicate the person so all the saints will not speak to that person or recieve information from that person.  With the Irons, they were excommunicated and people would not recieve their mail because they would not want the leadership to know they were in communication with the Irons.  

Another past obstacle was keeping finding people after they left.  A lot of people would leave hurt, that they would kind of disappear and saints and others would loss track of them.  Tragicly a lot of people in the past, saw themselves as the failures.  By the time they realized they were not the problem, they didn't know how to get in contact with others who had left in order to compare notes.  Sometimes, by the time they realized that they were not the problem, they wanted to just get on with life and not revisit the past.  Now with the internet and more importantly this website, people can find information easily.  They can find it from the privacy of their own homes without fear of the leadership or others knowing that they are looking at this information.  As we begin to compare notes with others we are seeing that the story has been the same for years.  Nothing has changed.  The assembly has been abusing people for as long as it has been around and even when it has claimed change the only real change has been the PR statement.  A change in words only.  However it has been effective in the past.  I really don't think it will be that effective in the future.