For whom did the Lord Jesus Christ die? (And why is it important?)

[Arthur]

Ah..it was the other knucklehead.  Yeah that guy is a knucklehead.

[H]

Greetings everyone! I'm back! Now where was I? I think I had more or less finished dealing with I John 2:2 and I Tim. 2:3-6, so I Timothy 4:10  is the next verse that Tom mentioned (in his post of January 25, 2003, 02:35:07 am). Regarding that verse, there is a web page that does a very thorough job of examining it, and I don't think I can improve upon it, so I'll just quote an extract and give the link to the web page. Here is an extract:

"The final phrase "specially of those that believe" clearly Indicates that the term is here given a twofold application. Of all men God is the Saviour, but of some men, namely, believers, He is the Saviour in a deeper, more glorious sense than He is of others.
     This clearly implies that when He Is called the Saviour of all men, this cannot mean that He imparts to all everlasting life, as He does to believers. The term "Saviour," then, must have a meaning which we today generally do not immediately attach to it. And that is exactly the cause of the difficulty. Often In the Old Testament, the term meant "to deliver — (verbal form) or deliverer (nominal form)" — both with reference to men and God (cf. Judg. 3:9; II Kings 13:5; Neh. 9:27; Ps. 25:5; 106:21). Also, in the New Testament, reference is made to the Old Testament where God delivered Israel from the oppression of Pharaoh for He had been the Saviour of all, but specially those who believed. With the latter, and with them alone, He was "well pleased" (I Cor. 10:5). All leave Egypt; not all enter Canaan." POINT: In both the Old and New Testaments the term "Saviour" is often used to speak of God's providential preservation or deliverance which extends to all men without exception. (Cf. Ps. 36:6; 145:9; Matt. 5:45; Luke 6:35; Acts 17:25, 28.) Moreover, God also causes His gospel of salvation to be earnestly proclaimed to all men without distinction; that is, to men from every race and nation (Matt. 28:19). Truly the kindness (providence or common grace) of God extends to all. But even the circle of those to whom the message of salvation is proclaimed is wider than those who receive it by a true saving faith.

B. Conclusion. A paraphrase of what Paul is teaching in I Timothy 4:10 is this: "We have our hope set on the living God, and in this hope we shall not be disappointed, for not only is He a kind God, hence the Saviour (i.e., preserver or deliverer in a providential, non-soteriological sense) of all men, showering blessings upon them, but He is, in a very special sense, the Saviour (in a soteriological sense) of those who by faith embrace Him and His promise, for to them He imparts salvation, everlasting life in all its fulness.

THE LIVING GOD IS THE PROVIDENTIAL PRESERVER OF ALL MEN; BUT HE IS ESPECIALLY SO FOR BELIEVERS, FOR HE NOT ONLY PHYSlCALLY AND TEMPORALLY DELIVERS THEM, BUT HE ALSO SPIRITUALLY AND ETERNALLY SAVES THEM."

Here is the link: http://www.the-highway.com/1Tim4.10.html

May the Living God richly bless you!

H

[H]

The next verse that Tom mentioned (in his post of January 25, 2003, 02:35:07 am) was II Peter 3:9. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." The main question that has to be answered in dealing with this verse is "who does the "any" and "all" refer to?" Most of you will probably immediately jump to the conclusion that it "obviously" refers to "any human being" and "all human beings." But does that interpretation really fit the immediate context of the passage, as well as the larger context of the rest of the Bible? First of all, Peter is writing this letter "to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." (II Pet. 1:1). In other words, he is talking to believers. If we look at the verse itself, Peter says that God is "longsuffering to us-ward". He is talking about God's longsuffering (patience) towards "us" (believers, the elect), not the entire human race. So it seems to me that the "any" and "all" of the following phrase are referring back to "us" (believers, the elect). God is not willing that any of us (believers, the elect) should perish, but that all of us (believers, the elect) should come to repentance. This seems to me to fit the immediate context of the passage much better than "any human being" and "all human beings." It also fits much better with the rest of the Bible. The "any human being" and "all human beings" interpretation would seem to be contradicted by such verses as Exodus 4:21; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; and 14:4, 8, all of which talk about the Lord hardening Pharaoh's heart;  Joshua 11:20 ("For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the Lord had commanded Moses." NKJV); I Samuel 2:25, which says that the sons of Eli "did not heed the voice of their father, because the Lord desired to kill them" (NKJV); Romans 9:18 ("Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens." NKJV); and II Thessalonians 2:11-12 ("And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."), among other passages. If God really didn't want "any human being" to perish, but wanted "all human beings" to come to repentance, why did He harden the hearts of Pharaoh and others, why did He want to kill the sons of Eli, why will He send "strong delusion, that they should believe a lie"?

May the Lord reveal the truth to His people! (Matt. 11:25-26)

H  

 
 

[glossyibis]

a suggestion for all of you arminianists and calvinists. ,  THE FAITH OF GOD'S ELECT
by John f. Parkinson  available at jptbooks@powerlink.net
It is the very best I have ever read to clear up the confusion .  May I add that the reason most people misunderstand Romans 9 is because they don't understand the election in romans 1 thru 8. When you understand what God is saying about election in those 8 chapters then you will be ready for chapter 9.
             love to all , steve harris