For whom did the Lord Jesus Christ die? (And why is it important?)

[Arthur]

Lump of Clay

Matthew 13: 28b  The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'
29  But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.'

Who are we to tell the Lord what He can do?  When I was first saved I rejoiced that the Lord had taken me who was but tares, and by His grace transformed the "tares to wheat".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a tare always a tare, and a wheat always a wheat.  They never change from one to the other.  A wheat seed sprouts up into a wheat plant when it matures.  A tare seed sprouts up into a tare plant when it matures.  God sowed the wheat.  The enemy sowed the tares. It is not apparent which is which until both mature.  Then we see the wheat producing valuable wheat germ, but the tare producing poison.  
From this parable, I think it is reasonable to conclude that if a person gets saved, then he always was a wheat seed, and now he is coming to full maturity.  Those who are tares, may look like wheat at one time, but in the end it is apparent that they never were wheat, only tares (hmm...like George?).  By their fruit you shall know them.  We are now finally seeing the fruit of George in the assembly.  
Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but that's my take.

Jeremiah 18: 3  Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel.
4  And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.

My Lord has "endured with much longsuffering" me, who was a "vessel of wrath prepared for destruction" and from the same lump has made a "vessel for honor."

I think this passage is referring to the nation of Israel, who was already delivered out of Egypt.  They had sinned and so God was going to destroy them and build them back up again.  As he did by sending them off into captivity, then bringing them back into the land.  
I think the important distinction to note is that he did not throw the pot away.  He reformed the pot.  See the difference?  
No doubt the potter works with many clay pots.  God didn't throw away Israel.  He decided to reform her again.  I wonder if the potter threw away the others?  
I suppose one way to look at it is, you were never a vessel prepared for destruction.  If you were, he would have thrown you away into the fire.  Rather, you were one that he chose to have mercy on.  He remade you, perhaps this could be a spiritual analogy to being born again, and is forming you into a vessel of honor.  
That's just my take on it, am I wrong?
The only problem I have with what I just said is that, it is hard for me to believe that God has mercy on some and not on others.  He is so merciful...isn't it to all?

[H]

Very good points, Arthur! I completely agree with what you said about the wheat and the tares.

I think the same thing applies to the sheep and the goats. I don't believe that goats can turn into sheep. If someone is one of the Lord's sheep, then sooner or later they WILL hear His voice and believe in Him and follow Him (John 10:27). The goats never will (v.26), although they may pretend to, they may fool the sheep, they may even fool themselves, but they can't fool the Good Shepherd, because He KNOWS His sheep (v.14). The Good Shepherd will save ALL the sheep that the Father has given Him (v. 28-29) and which He has given His life for (v.11, 15).

As He said in John 6:37-39, "ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

It ought to be fairly clear from this passage that the Father has GIVEN certain people to the Lord Jesus Christ, and that ALL of them will come to Him (sooner or later), and that NONE of them will be lost. Praise the Lord! These people are His sheep, the ones He said He would give His life for. Isn't it amazing to think that we, if we are His sheep, are a GIFT from God the Father to His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ? And the Lord Jesus Christ decided to accept this gift from His Father, even though He knew it would cost Him suffering and death! To think that the sinless, omnipotent, perfect Son of God would WILLINGLY lay down His life for someone as sinful and vile as myself!  "Love so amazing, so divine, demands my life, my soul, my all."

Love in Christ,
H

[Bob Sturnfield]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a tare always a tare, and a wheat always a wheat.  They never change from one to the other.  . . .
The only problem I have with what I just said is that, it is hard for me to believe that God has mercy on some and not on others.  He is so merciful...isn't it to all?

You are very right.  Genetically it is impossible.  But the unsaved that hang around his flock, can be saved.
Jerimiah 13:23  Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

Isaiah 55:7  Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
8  "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
9  "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
. . .
13  Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress tree, And instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree; And it shall be to the LORD for a name, For an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off."

Genetically it is impossible, that is why we are called a "new creation"
2 Corinthians 5:17  Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

We "had not obtained mercy" and "were not My people" before we were saved, it is "in Christ" that we become "a new creation".

Hosea 2:23b  And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy; Then I will say to those who were not My people, ‘You are My people!’ And they shall say, ‘You are my God!’"

In the same way, "MY PEOPLE," "MANY,"  "YOU" (=the disciples), "THE SHEEP," "HIS FRIENDS," "US/OUR/WE" (=believers), "THE CHURCH," "THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED." can not refer to us before we are saved.

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2  in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3  among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

[moonflower]

Your reference to "that ball and chain of Calvinism clanging" gives me the impression that you have only been exposed to negative (legalistic) varieties of Calvinism. Keep in mind that there are many varieities of Calvinism and Calvinists, just as there are many varieties of Arminianism and Arminians. There are undoubtedly legalistic and obnoxious Calvinists, just like there are legalistic and obnoxious Arminians. Lumping all Calvinists into one group and judging them on the basis of your limited knowledge and experience of a few representatives is not really fair. Let me assure you, there are some nice Calvinists around! I know, because I have met some (not in my country, but in the USA and England).

H,
Yes! There are very nice Calvinists around, and I love them! This includes my relatives, family and friends. I grew up in a Calvinistic 'environment', church and school for 25 years, and was catechised in the Calvinist doctrine for years. We even had rooms and clubs named after John Calvin.  

But I do know that the Calvinistic doctrine of predestination can leave one feeling helpless and wondering if they can ever please God, because they have been 'predestined' to be where they are, be it saved or damned. And what is the use, really, of worrying since you would have no choice in the matter, anyway? Clang, clang, ball and chain.

The teaching that people are 'predestined' to be lost, can also lead to the thought that some sins of believers have not been paid for at the cross.  After all, if salvation is beyond the reach of certain people doomed to the lake, then some sins (Which ones could they be? Did I commit one?) committed by believers may also be beyond the reach of the cross. Dreadful thought. Clunk, clunk, ball and chain.

We all have a chance for the prize! "I press toward the goal for the prize of the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus."
Phil. 4:14.
M

[H]

Tom and Bob felt that I Tim. 2:3-6 supports the idea that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the entire human race. But does it really? Their argument is based on their interpretation of the word "all" in v. 4 & 6. Does the word "all" ALWAYS refer to "every single individual, without exception"? Let's take a look at a few verses where the word "all" occurs and see if it ALWAYS refers to "every single individual, without exception."

Acts 22:15 says "For thou shalt be his witness unto ALL MEN of what thou hast seen and heard." Was Paul really going to be God's witness to every single human being, without exception? What about all the people that had already died before Paul was converted? What about all the people that he never met? What about all the people that never heard of him and never read anything that he wrote? It ought to be obvious that ALL MEN cannot mean "every single human being, without exception" in this verse. 2 Corinthians 3:2 says "Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of ALL MEN:" Were the believers in Corinth really "known and read of" the entire human race? I don't think so. Philippians 4:5 says "Let your moderation be known unto ALL MEN. The Lord is at hand." Did Paul really require the Philippians to make their moderation known to the entire human race? How could they possibly do that? 1 Thessalonians 2:15 says "Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to ALL MEN:" Were the Jews really contrary to the entire human race (including themselves)? It ought to be obvious from these verses that "all men" is sometimes used in a general sense and does not always mean "the entire human race, with no exceptions."

Now let's look at the context of I Tim. 2:3-6. The key to understanding v. 3-6 is found in v. 1-2. "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty." Was Paul really saying that prayers should be made for the entire human race, without any exceptions? Even for the people that were already dead? I don't think so (I realize that Roman Catholics won't agree with me). In my opinion, the phrases "For kings, and for all that are in authority" which immediately follow the phrase "for ALL MEN" show that he meant "ALL KINDS OF MEN" not "the entire human race." We are not just to pray for people of our own nationality or social class, but for ALL KINDS OF MEN, including kings and others in authority.

Therefore, when we come to verse 4 ("Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."), the question arises, does Paul mean that God "will have ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION to be saved" or does he mean that God "will have ALL KINDS OF MEN to be saved" (not just people of one nationality or social class, but from many nations and social classes)? Since a large part of the human race was already lost (those who had died in unbelief before this was written), and since "ALL MEN" in v. 1 obviously refers to "ALL KINDS OF MEN", I believe he meant the latter. In other words, God doesn't just want to save people of one nation (for example, Jews) or one social class (for example, the poor), He wants to save people from many nations and many social classes. I don't believe he could have meant the former, otherwise "ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION" would be saved. After all, God says in Isaiah 46:10 "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" If it really was God's "pleasure" to save "ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION", then He would do it. He is omnipotent and nobody can prevent Him from doing ALL His "pleasure."

So when we come to v. 6, what does Paul mean when he says "Who gave himself a ransom for all"? Does he really mean, as many believe, that Christ "gave himself a ransom for ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION"? If so, then "ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION" will be freed (from sin) and saved, because that is what is involved when "a ransom" has been paid. Since I don't believe that "ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION" will be freed from sin and saved, I don't believe Paul meant that, whatever it is that he really meant (whether "ALL KINDS OF MEN" or "ALL WHO WILL BE SAVED" or something else).

Well, I'll let this suffice for now. May the Lord bless ALL HIS PEOPLE!

H


   

[Bob Sturnfield]

That is exactly what I have been saying.  

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Just as the Jews were "my beloved" and the gentiles "not beloved".

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

I am saying that God is able to "call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved."

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

As I said, "God's longsuffering is to change hearts."

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The clear context of this passage is that My Lord has "endured with much longsuffering" (the gentiles), who were "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" and from the same lump has made "vessels for honor."

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Jeremiah 18: 3  Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel.
4  And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

Romans 9:13-24

In the same way we do not have to understand the intricacies of the working of God to be saved.  God, in sending His Son, has done everything for our salvation.

The "Good News" is that the ones who were "not the chosen" can receive "eternal life", not just to "live forever", but the very life of Christ.  Eternal life is not just "one direction," it is without beginning or end.  We go from being "the rejected", to being "chosen in Him from the foundation of the world".

Luke 14:21  "So that servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in here the poor and the maimed and the lame and the blind.’
22  "And the servant said, ‘Master, it is done as you commanded, and still there is room.’
23  "Then the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24  ‘For I say to you that none of those men who were invited shall taste my supper.’"

Not all that are invited will come.  But God's longsuffering is to change the "hardened heart". This is why we preach the gospel.

Rom 2:4  Or is it nothing to you that God had pity on you, waiting and putting up with you for so long, not seeing that in his pity God’s desire is to give you a change of heart?

Ezek 36:26  "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

[H]

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

Romans 9:13-24

[Bob Sturnfield]

That is exactly what I have been saying.  

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Just as the Jews were "my beloved" and the gentiles "not beloved".

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

I am saying that God is able to "call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved."

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

As I said, "God's longsuffering is to change hearts."

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The clear context of this passage is that My Lord has "endured with much longsuffering" (the gentiles), who were "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" and from the same lump has made "vessels for honor."

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Jeremiah 18: 3  Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel.
4  And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

Romans 9:13-24

In the same way we do not have to understand the intricacies of the working of God to be saved.  God, in sending His Son, has done everything for our salvation.

The "Good News" is that the ones who were "not the chosen" can receive "eternal life", not just to "live forever", but the very life of Christ.  Eternal life is not just "one direction," it is without beginning or end.  We go from being "the rejected", to being "chosen before the foundation of the earth".

Luke 14:21  "So that servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in here the poor and the maimed and the lame and the blind.’
22  "And the servant said, ‘Master, it is done as you commanded, and still there is room.’
23  "Then the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24  ‘For I say to you that none of those men who were invited shall taste my supper.’"

Not all that are invited will come.  But God's longsuffering is to change the "hardened heart". This is why we preach the gospel.

Rom 2:4  Or is it nothing to you that God had pity on you, waiting and putting up with you for so long, not seeing that in his pity God’s desire is to give you a change of heart?

Ezek 36:26  I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

[H]

Here are some questions for you: If God really loves everybody and wants everybody to be saved, why does God say "Esau have I HATED" and why does Paul say "whom he will he HARDENETH"? Why would God want to "harden" someone if He really loved them and wanted them to be saved? And why did the Lord Jesus Christ say "I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast HID these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight." (Luke 10:21) If God really loved "the wise and prudent" and wanted them to be saved, why did He hide the truth from them? And why did the Lord Jesus Christ say "it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is NOT GIVEN" (Matt.13:11)? If God really loved "them" and wanted "them" to be saved, why didn't He also give "them" "to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven"?  I have more questions, but I will let these suffice for the time being. Look forward to seeing some answers. I really want to understand these passages correctly, so if anybody has some convincing explanations, I am willing to listen.

H

[Nate Dogg]

Taking Biblical passages to support a previously conceived viewpoint is dangerous. So is taking our entire worldview from the Bible. What are we to take literally and why should we take these things literally? For example, are we to take the Sermon on the Mount literally? Tolstoy believed so. Are we to take the passages in Acts literally, esp with regard to shring and giving up possesions? Are we to take the biblical mandate of a Jubilee Year literally-- where all debts are forgiven? Are we to take Jesus literally when he says that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom? Are we to take  literally Paul's command to present our bodies as a living sacrifice? Are we to take Song of Solomon literally? (talk about an oft-allegorized book basically praising the beauty and even eroticism of the human form) How and why do we take certain things literally? Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners and outcasts-- what would it look like if we took those actions literally? I ask these things, not necessarily because we humans know the full answer, but that it is enormously difficult and complex to determine what one should and shouldn't take literally.
Thank you,
                     Nate

[H]

Here is an excerpt from chapter 3 of a book called "By Grace Alone" by Jim McClarty
(http://www.salvationbygrace.org/DofGChThree.htm):

So to summarize, Scripture tells us that, on the cross, Christ ---

1) Was the final substitutionary sacrifice for sin

2) Was the propitiation that satisfied the wrath of God

3) Paid the redemption price to purchase guilty sinners

4) Was the ransom price that was paid

5) Made reconciliation between God and man

6) Justified guilty sinners, satisfying God's Holy Justice

7) Sanctified those people, or set them apart as holy

8) Perfected forever those whom He bought, justified and sanctified.

And, by Christ's own declaration on the cross, "It is finished". He actually accomplished all these things in his death and resurrection.

With this in mind, let us again ask the question:

FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE?

If Christ died for the whole world - every person who ever lived, without distinction - then He also accomplished all the purposes of His death for every one of those people. Nowhere in Scripture do we find language to suggest that the attributes of Christ's atoning work are applied to different individuals in varying degrees. It's all or nothing at all.

Not only that, but the Bible does not suggest that Christ did all this work and then left it unapplied, waiting for someone to take advantage of it. When He said it was finished, it was finished. He had actually accomplished what He set out to do.

Nor do we find any hint that something needs to be added to Christ's work in order for it to be efficacious in a person's life. We don't add our faith, or our choice, or our decision, in order to make Christ's atonement active. He did it alone. He accomplished His purpose and He sat down at the position of authority - His father's right hand.

Given all this, we are forced to conclude that if Christ died for everyone, then surely everyone would be saved. But, we know from Scripture that this is not the case. Not everyone is saved. Some people end up eternally separated from God.

Revelation 20:13-15 - "And, the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And, death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And, whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Matthew 23:33 - "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

But, how could men who have been reconciled, redeemed, justified, sanctified and perfected be put into the lake of fire and eternally punished by a Righteous God? If Christ paid the price of their sin, how could they be tried on their sinfulness?

The answer is - Christ was not their substitute. Their sins were not on Christ's shoulders when He bore the burden of guilt.

And so we plainly declare - Christ died as the substitute for the elect only.

As a result, the elect are already viewed by God as being purchased, reconciled, personally innocent, holy and complete in Christ. They can never be tried for their sins, because God has removed them as far from us as the East is from the West and they'll be remembered no more. (Ps.103:4) And, God will not pour out His wrath for sin on the elect, because He has once poured it out on His Son in their stead.

Hebrews 9:12 - "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

Furthermore, the logical succession of these doctrines leads us to the conclusion that Christ did not die for all humanity. If, as we've concluded thus far, God elected certain individuals before the foundation of the world, and withheld that mercy from others, He would not have sent His Son intending to pardon those whom He positively foreknew would be lost.

"To represent God as earnestly striving to do what He knows He will not do is to represent Him as acting foolishly."

Christ, Himself, demonstrated this relationship - that the elect and the redeemed are the same people - when He prayed:

John 17:5-10 - "And, now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine and thine are mine and I am glorified in them."

So, as Christ was preparing to die and return to His former glory, which He shared with God before the world began, He lists several attributes of the particular people that God gave to Him "out of the world":

1) They were God's, given to Christ

2) They kept God's word

3) They knew that whatever Christ had was from God

4) Christ gave them the words God gave Him

5) They received those words

6) They knew surely that Christ came from God

7) They had faith that God sent Christ

8) Jesus prayed to God exclusively for them, because they were God's. Notice the exact words, "I pray not for the world, but for them ..."

9) Christ was glorified in them.

Jesus then continued the prayer, asking His Father to bless and protect these people. Now, are we to assume that Christ would exclude members of the "world" from His prayer and then spill His precious blood with the intention of redeeming and perfecting those for whom He would not pray? Again, that's to say that He acted in a confused, or foolish, way. Don't miss the contrast Christ made between those that were His, and those for whom He would not pray. Our contention that He died for His elect exclusively simply follows the distinction that He Himself made.

[moonflower]

Here is an excerpt from chapter 3 of a book called "By Grace Alone" by Jim McClarty
(http://www.salvationbygrace.org/DofGChThree.htm):

So to summarize, Scripture tells us that, on the cross, Christ ---

1) Was the final substitutionary sacrifice for sin

2) Was the propitiation that satisfied the wrath of God

3) Paid the redemption price to purchase guilty sinners

4) Was the ransom price that was paid

5) Made reconciliation between God and man

6) Justified guilty sinners, satisfying God's Holy Justice

7) Sanctified those people, or set them apart as holy

Perfected forever those whom He bought, justified and sanctified.

And, by Christ's own declaration on the cross, "It is finished". He actually accomplished all these things in his death and resurrection.

With this in mind, let us again ask the question:

FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE?

If Christ died for the whole world - every person who ever lived, without distinction - then He also accomplished all the purposes of His death for every one of those people. Nowhere in Scripture do we find language to suggest that the attributes of Christ's atoning work are applied to different individuals in varying degrees. It's all or nothing at all.

Not only that, but the Bible does not suggest that Christ did all this work and then left it unapplied, waiting for someone to take advantage of it. When He said it was finished, it was finished. He had actually accomplished what He set out to do.

Nor do we find any hint that something needs to be added to Christ's work in order for it to be efficacious in a person's life. We don't add our faith, or our choice, or our decision, in order to make Christ's atonement active. He did it alone. He accomplished His purpose and He sat down at the position of authority - His father's right hand.

Given all this, we are forced to conclude that if Christ died for everyone, then surely everyone would be saved. But, we know from Scripture that this is not the case. Not everyone is saved. Some people end up eternally separated from God.

Revelation 20:13-15 - "And, the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And, death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And, whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Matthew 23:33 - "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

But, how could men who have been reconciled, redeemed, justified, sanctified and perfected be put into the lake of fire and eternally punished by a Righteous God? If Christ paid the price of their sin, how could they be tried on their sinfulness?

The answer is - Christ was not their substitute. Their sins were not on Christ's shoulders when He bore the burden of guilt.

And so we plainly declare - Christ died as the substitute for the elect only.

As a result, the elect are already viewed by God as being purchased, reconciled, personally innocent, holy and complete in Christ. They can never be tried for their sins, because God has removed them as far from us as the East is from the West and they'll be remembered no more. (Ps.103:4) And, God will not pour out His wrath for sin on the elect, because He has once poured it out on His Son in their stead.

Hebrews 9:12 - "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

Furthermore, the logical succession of these doctrines leads us to the conclusion that Christ did not die for all humanity. If, as we've concluded thus far, God elected certain individuals before the foundation of the world, and withheld that mercy from others, He would not have sent His Son intending to pardon those whom He positively foreknew would be lost.

"To represent God as earnestly striving to do what He knows He will not do is to represent Him as acting foolishly."

Christ, Himself, demonstrated this relationship - that the elect and the redeemed are the same people - when He prayed:

John 17:5-10 - "And, now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine and thine are mine and I am glorified in them."

So, as Christ was preparing to die and return to His former glory, which He shared with God before the world began, He lists several attributes of the particular people that God gave to Him "out of the world":

1) They were God's, given to Christ

2) They kept God's word

3) They knew that whatever Christ had was from God

4) Christ gave them the words God gave Him

5) They received those words

6) They knew surely that Christ came from God

7) They had faith that God sent Christ

Jesus prayed to God exclusively for them, because they were God's. Notice the exact words, "I pray not for the world, but for them ..."

9) Christ was glorified in them.

Jesus then continued the prayer, asking His Father to bless and protect these people. Now, are we to assume that Christ would exclude members of the "world" from His prayer and then spill His precious blood with the intention of redeeming and perfecting those for whom He would not pray? Again, that's to say that He acted in a confused, or foolish, way. Don't miss the contrast Christ made between those that were His, and those for whom He would not pray. Our contention that He died for His elect exclusively simply follows the distinction that He Himself made.

"He is despised and rejected of men.....
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him....
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him sticken, smitten of God and aflicted.
BUT He was wounded for our transgressions
He was bruised for our iniquities....
ALL we like sheep have gone astray,
We have turned, everyone, to his own way
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us ALL.
Isa. 53.

Looks to me like He was rejected by all and bore the iniquity of all.  He knew ahead of time and did it anyway, even for those who would never accept Him. That is true love.

[Nate Dogg]

I thought this quote from Dietrich Bonhoeffer may provide some clarity:

   Hasn't the individualistic question about personal salvation completely left us all? Aren't we really under the impression that there are more important things than that question? (perhaps not more important than the matter itself, but more important than the question?) I know it sounds pretty monstrous to say that. But fundamentally, isn't this in fact Biblical? Does the question about saving one's soul appear in the OT at all? Arent righteousness and the kingdom of god on earth the focus of everything, and isn't it true that Rom. 3:24ff is not an individualistic doctrine of salvation but the culmination of the view that God alone is righteous? It is not with the beyond that we are concerned, but with this world as created and preserved, subjected to laws, reconciled, and restored. What is above this world is, in the gospel, intended to exist for this world; I mean that, not in the anthropocentric sense of liberal mystic piety, ethical theology, but in the biblical sense of the creation and of the incarnation, crucifixtion, and ressurection of Jesus Christ."

thank you,
   Nate

[AaronC]

Saints--You will be happy to discover that all of this has been discussed by two of God's greatest men.  

I recommend Luther's The Bondage of the Will
http://www.efn.org/~davidc/luther.html

For an added bonus, check out Jonathan Edwards's The Freedom of the Will.
http://members.aol.com/jonathanedw/Edwards.html

At the very least, reading these men will prevent wisecracks against others with whom we disagree.

Off the cuff reflections are a bit silly until we've read the best of both sides.

Aaron Cantrell

PS--Arthur, I would not say that John Malone defeated H's arguments.  I think he sidestepped them.

[Arthur]

PS--Arthur, I would not say that John Malone defeated H's arguments.  I think he sidestepped them.

Huh? Did I say something?  I think you have me confused with someone else maybe.