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Author Topic: Quotes to Ponder  (Read 229187 times)
Mark Kisla
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« Reply #240 on: December 12, 2004, 09:56:47 pm »

" Character is what a man is in the dark"
D.L.Moody
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glossyibis
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« Reply #241 on: December 17, 2004, 10:21:24 am »

They can't score if they don't have the puck.
                                         Wayne Gretzky
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Mark Kisla
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« Reply #242 on: December 19, 2004, 03:40:25 am »

'When we played it was, " How lucky we are to be here "
With players today it's, " How lucky you are to have us."

BOB PLAGER  1967-1978 St Louis Blues
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Mark Kisla
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« Reply #243 on: December 19, 2004, 09:01:12 pm »

" Within the covers of this Bible are all the answers for all the problems that men face. The  Bible can touch hearts, order minds and refresh souls"

RONALD REAGAN
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Mark Kisla
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« Reply #244 on: December 19, 2004, 09:06:35 pm »

" It was the Lord who put it [the discovery of America] in my mind. I could feel His hand upon me. There's  no question that the inspiration was from the Holy Spirit because He comforted me with rays of marvelous inspiration through the Holy Scripture."

Christopher Columbus
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glossyibis
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« Reply #245 on: December 25, 2004, 11:01:16 pm »

Without commonly shared and widely entrenched moral values and obligations, neither the law,
nor the democratic government, nor even the market economy will function properly.
Vaclav Havel

This also was a common saying in Romania , under communism. "NO GOOD DEED WILL GO UNPUNISHED"
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Mark Kisla
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« Reply #246 on: December 31, 2004, 03:44:51 am »

Quotes From RONALD REAGAN

" No arsonal, or no weapon in the arsonals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. "


" The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that is'nt so. "

" The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."
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Mercy4Me
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« Reply #247 on: February 01, 2005, 07:40:02 am »

"We somewhere got the insane notion that the only faithful way to relate to a non-Christian is either ignoring her, persecuting her, or converting her.  That's absurd.  How about befriending her?  How about showing hospitality to her?  How about getting to know her, seeking to understand her, seeking to be a blessing to her?  We're afraid that by accepting people, we're giving tacit approval to everything they believe and do...Beyond love, it seems simple respect is missing in a lot of the rhetoric one hears, especially from some of the extreme conservatives...."  Brian D. McLaren
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al Hartman
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« Reply #248 on: February 02, 2005, 05:33:51 am »



"We somewhere got the insane notion that the only faithful way to relate to a non-Christian is either ignoring her, persecuting her, or converting her.  That's absurd.  How about befriending her?  How about showing hospitality to her?  How about getting to know her, seeking to understand her, seeking to be a blessing to her?  We're afraid that by accepting people, we're giving tacit approval to everything they believe and do...Beyond love, it seems simple respect is missing in a lot of the rhetoric one hears, especially from some of the extreme conservatives...."  Brian D. McLaren

An interesting quote.  I am not familiar with McLaren or his work, and a look at his bio http://www.anewkindofchristian.com/biography.html has done nothing to alleviate that.  Some of his book titles are alarming, but it's tricky to judge them by their covers...  I'm curious as to who he refers to as "we" in the above quote?

Glad to hear from you, Mercy4Me.  Perhaps you'd care to share with us your own opinions on this or another thread?  Whether so or not, welcome aboard...

al
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sfortescue
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« Reply #249 on: February 02, 2005, 08:37:12 am »


...  I am not familiar with McLaren or his work, and a look at his bio http://www.anewkindofchristian.com/biography.html has done nothing to alleviate that.  Some of his book titles are alarming, but it's tricky to judge them by their covers...  I'm curious as to who he refers to as "we" in the above quote?

Glad to hear from you, Mercy4Me.  Perhaps you'd care to share with us your own opinions on this or another thread?  Whether so or not, welcome aboard...

al

Under "Articles", "An Open Letter to Chuck Colson" and "Chuck Colson's Response" seem to be the quickest route to where McLaren is coming from.

It all sounds so very reasonable, except for its subtle deceptiveness.  He calls himself a Christian and yet ever so subtilely denies that truth exists.  This reminds me of "The Silver Chair" by C.S. Lewis.  The Emerald Witch was burning incence and quietly suggesting to Prince Rilian that there was no such land as Narnia, that it was all a figment of his imagination.
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outdeep
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« Reply #250 on: February 02, 2005, 08:06:11 pm »

Brian McLaren is a big name in what is called "the emerging church" or "the post-modern church"movement.  Unlike Colson, who sees postmodernism as a negative thing - relivitism at its worse - McLaren sees Postmodernism as a natural historical movement similar to moving from the dark ages to modernism.

The book A New Kind if Christian is a poorly written but somewhat decent introduction to their thought.  It is about an evangelical pastor in a time of crisis who meets a progressive-thinking former-pastor-turned-history teacher who becomes an answer-man like mentor.  He teaches the pastor things like:

o  Modernists see the Bible as an "answer book" and use the Bible to prove something while postmodernists see that the Bible does not always resolve and strugging with the question often brings us closer to God.

o  Modernists see things as either/or - you are either in the kingdom or out of the kingdom.  Those who are out are seen as "outsiders" and those in are seen as "insiders".  Postmodernists see evangelism much different.  They would be less inclined to emphasize the differences of other religions (as a modernist) and more inclined to emphasize the similarities thus joining the person on their spiritual journey and discovering Christ together.

o  More emphasis is put on community, artistic expression, religious symbolism.  They rightly see that the evangelical church too often follows the corporate business model with the pastor as CEO.  They argue that the church-growth "gather to a big meeting and then try to break out and disciple individuals" model needs to be examined.  Though there are postmodern churches (McLaren pastors one in the Baltimore area), I don't know if they really came up with an alternative.  

o  Postmodernists would see someone as a function of his or her environment and culture and would be more inclined to celebrate a native American dance to Jesus in worship.

o  They see evangelicalism as having been hyjacked by right-leaning conservatives.  They argue that abortion and homosexuality has too long been the prime issue without regard to a practical response to poverty, homelessness, affordable housing, racism, and the morality of war.  It is my personal observation as I read their literature that when they say "God is not Republican or Democrat", they tend to think of God in terms of politically liberal causes.  While I think the church needs to do more in some areas such a HIV/AIDS I think they merely shift the pendulum to the other extreme and ignore abortion in favor of feeding the homeless and protesting the killing of war.

The problem with the whole concept of postmodernism is, by their own admission, there are really no established definitions.  What makes it worse is that postmodernism tends to see definitions as modern constructs and therefore deny the validity of definitions themselves (thinks should be understood by their context, not by absolute definitions, some argue).

From a practical standpoint, here are those I observed in the Postmodern church movement:
o  Those who are disillusioned with Evangelism and is reacting against it (much like the Jesus movement or the Plymouth Brethren had a dissatisfaction with the church of their day).
o  Those who are really into postmodern philosophy and half the time you can't understand what they are talking about.
o  Those who want to tie Christianity with politically liberal causes and who feel the church has aligned themselves too closely to the politics of Falwell, Dobson and Bush.  It amazes me how often they (like liberals) make Falwell the "evangelical spokesman" as opposed to other capable thinkers such as J.I. Packer, John Piper and even Rick Warren (who did a great job on Larry King).

I personally don't care for McLaren both having heard him speak and read his book but others have liked his stuff.  I object to his simplisitic critisizm of the evangelical church and he comes across as someone who wants to be a big fish in the emerging church movement.  I personally (having grown up a modernist) have a difficult time not seeing postmodernism as an extreme form of relativism that fuels the diversity and tolerance (all views are tolerated, but some are more tolerated than others) movement as opposed to a simple and natural paradeigm shift in our understanding of the world.

I think a much better and thought provoking book is Blue Like Jazz by Martin who writes a very honest book and, for the most part, hasn't departed so far that I get completely disguisted.

Another place to investigate this further is www.theooze.com.  It will help you understand a bit where they are coming from.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2005, 09:10:26 pm by Dave Sable » Logged
Oscar
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« Reply #251 on: February 02, 2005, 10:23:13 pm »

Dave,

You said,
Quote
.  I personally (having grown up a modernist) have a difficult time not seeing postmodernism as an extreme form of relativism that fuels the diversity and tolerance (all views are tolerated, but some are more tolerated than others) movement as opposed to a simple and natural paradeigm shift in our understanding of the world.

1. You might just feel this way because post-modernism IS an extreme, and dishonest, form of relativism.

2. What is the paradigm shift of which you speak?  Most paradigm shifts are neither simple or natural.  

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

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Oscar
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« Reply #252 on: February 02, 2005, 10:39:29 pm »

"We somewhere got the insane notion that the only faithful way to relate to a non-Christian is either ignoring her, persecuting her, or converting her.  That's absurd.  How about befriending her?  How about showing hospitality to her?  How about getting to know her, seeking to understand her, seeking to be a blessing to her?  We're afraid that by accepting people, we're giving tacit approval to everything they believe and do...Beyond love, it seems simple respect is missing in a lot of the rhetoric one hears, especially from some of the extreme conservatives...."  Brian D. McLaren

Mercy,

I guess our friend Brian D. McLaren has never read the popular book, "Lifestyle Evangelism" by Joseph Aldrich.  In one chapter he makes the following points:

1. Get acquainted with your neighbors.
2. Establish a growing relationship.
3. Extend an invitation to your home.
4. Cultivate common interests.
5. Be available for the hurting.
6. Be a giver of books.
7. Find an appropriate harvest vehicle.  By this he means things like home Bible studies, church sports programs, fishing trips with your unsaved friends, things like that.

He says more, but as you can see McLaren is reacting to what is done in SOME churches.  Certainly not all.

My adult sunday school class wanted to reach out to our neighbors in a non-threatening way, with the goal that they would become interested in trying out some of the programs we have.  The method?

A free car wash on Saturday morning.  Big sign out front, "Free Car Wash, no donations accepted".

They just washed their cars.  While they waited there was a literature table that THEY could walk over to and take church packet, which contains, among other things, a tract.  

There were also some cold drinks available, (free), and people who could answer questions.  Many did.  Some asked, "What do you folks believe?"  The question was answered.  But if they didn't ask, they just got a free car wash.

McLaren should have driven by.

Thomas Maddux
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outdeep
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« Reply #253 on: February 02, 2005, 11:19:57 pm »

Dave,

You said,
Quote
.  I personally (having grown up a modernist) have a difficult time not seeing postmodernism as an extreme form of relativism that fuels the diversity and tolerance (all views are tolerated, but some are more tolerated than others) movement as opposed to a simple and natural paradeigm shift in our understanding of the world.

1. You might just feel this way because post-modernism IS an extreme, and dishonest, form of relativism.

2. What is the paradigm shift of which you speak?  Most paradigm shifts are neither simple or natural.  

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux


1.  Yes, I agree.  I cut my postmodernism teeth on Ravi Zacharis, Os Guinnis and Francis Shaeffer (who didn't call it that but he certainly saw it coming) and I see it as a teaching that says truth is a function of your environment and culture and that everyone's truth needs to be equally affirmed (at least the truths they happen to like).   Truth, after all, is a power grab and exaulting American Christian truth to be a meta-truth (all encompassing truth) would be dishonoring the American Indian who is berated because he doesn't have as powerful of a voice to celebrate his truth.

2.  Here is McLaren's argument the best I understand and remember it:

Once upon a time, there was a medieval church.  People went to church and related to God in a much different way than we do today.  They probably didn’t hear the same type of pulpit ministry as we do, they didn’t see the Bible as an answer book, nor did they reason with the same sort of apologetics.  They related to God based upon the artistic structure of the cathedral, through sight and smell and other means not found in our churches today.  Suddenly, the Renaissance came along and the beginning of modernism arose.  

We began to form logic, a scientific methods and the thesis/anti-thesis governed our thinking.  We began to understand our world using categories and absolute definitions.  This constitutes a shift in the way people thought and related in previous times.  It formed a new “grid”.  Modernism was not a requirement to know God (after all, people knew God before modernism came along).  It just became the context through which people viewed Him.

Just as there was a paradigm shift from medieval to modern, we are currently in a thought shift from modern to post-modern.  Since this is where our culture is heading, we Christians need to learn how to relate to God within this new post-modern “grid” so that we can remain relevant in this new context.

That is his position.  I know you can poke holes in it as well as I – not the least of which to point out that the move from Medieval to modern was forced upon us by such facts as “the Earth really rotates around the sun and not the other way around”.  I’m not confident that postmodernism brings similar truths to the table.  

I personally think that the movement is a  reactionary movement by those who don’t like the way church is done.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2005, 06:28:55 pm by Dave Sable » Logged
outdeep
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« Reply #254 on: February 02, 2005, 11:30:58 pm »

"We somewhere got the insane notion that the only faithful way to relate to a non-Christian is either ignoring her, persecuting her, or converting her.  That's absurd.  How about befriending her?  How about showing hospitality to her?  How about getting to know her, seeking to understand her, seeking to be a blessing to her?  We're afraid that by accepting people, we're giving tacit approval to everything they believe and do...Beyond love, it seems simple respect is missing in a lot of the rhetoric one hears, especially from some of the extreme conservatives...."  Brian D. McLaren

Mercy,

I guess our friend Brian D. McLaren has never read the popular book, "Lifestyle Evangelism" by Joseph Aldrich.  In one chapter he makes the following points:

1. Get acquainted with your neighbors.
2. Establish a growing relationship.
3. Extend an invitation to your home.
4. Cultivate common interests.
5. Be available for the hurting.
6. Be a giver of books.
7. Find an appropriate harvest vehicle.  By this he means things like home Bible studies, church sports programs, fishing trips with your unsaved friends, things like that.

He says more, but as you can see McLaren is reacting to what is done in SOME churches.  Certainly not all.

My adult sunday school class wanted to reach out to our neighbors in a non-threatening way, with the goal that they would become interested in trying out some of the programs we have.  The method?

A free car wash on Saturday morning.  Big sign out front, "Free Car Wash, no donations accepted".

They just washed their cars.  While they waited there was a literature table that THEY could walk over to and take church packet, which contains, among other things, a tract.  

There were also some cold drinks available, (free), and people who could answer questions.  Many did.  Some asked, "What do you folks believe?"  The question was answered.  But if they didn't ask, they just got a free car wash.

McLaren should have driven by.

Thomas Maddux
One of my objections as I read their literature, listened to their sermons, etc. is their reactionary tone.  One would think that Jerry Falwell was the only spokesman for Christianity and the only thing Franklin Graham ever said in his life is "Islam is an evil religion".  I think some in their rank have some great ideas (Tom Sine, for instance, had some excellent ideas of Christian community as a response to the need for affordable housing and Martin in Blue Like Jazz did some really cool things in reaching unbelievers in a very secular university).  But as long as they take their "tolerant and understanding of everyone except evangelicals" approach, I think they will only attract the disgruntled.

Of course, I can think of another church that attracted those disgruntled with the established church back in the 1970's . . .
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