Quotes to Ponder

[Sondra Jamison]

"Do not be too quick to assume that your enemy is an enemy of God just because she is your enemy. Perhaps she is your enemy precisely because she can find nothing in you that gives glory to God. Perhaps she fears you because she can find nothing in you of God's love and God's kindness and God's patience and mercy and understanding of the weakness of men.

Do not be too quick to condemn the woman who no longer believes in God, for it is perhaps your own coldness and avarice, your mediocrity and materialism, your sensuality and selfishness that have killed her faith."

---Thomas Merton


For the women on the board.   I like this version even better.   

This sounded like a good quote at first, and I love Thomas Merton, but the more I read it, I thought, this isn't true and this offers a lot of guilt and condemnation toward the believer.  I cannot think of a scripture that says this or even a passage.  So I have to conclude - this is not God's perspective.  This perspective seems to drive the Lord's people out of guilt to take the sins of others on themselves.  The fact is we can do nothing/very little about the sins and wrong thinking of others much less our own selves.  Past making the best choices daily for Christ that we can, we are God's responsibility and heaven's.  So are all others. 

The Word says to preach the Word...share with others, love them, go out to them.  It doesn't say that if they lose faith that it was because you didn't do it right....essentially "you were a bad example." I think the human soul has enough sin nature that it is condemned already.  Yes, there are those who can trip up or cause others' faith to shipwreck, but I dare say that this is the case with most believers.  Most of God's people try very hard to win others to Christ. 

This is surprising for Thomas Merton.  Perhaps it was taken out of context which changed the intended meaning.

Respectfully, Elizabeth, IMO, there is something about this quote that is inconsistent with the Spirit of the Lord.  No offense intended - after all, you didn't write it.

sj

 

[moonflower2]

"Do not be too quick to assume that your enemy is an enemy of God just because he is your enemy. Perhaps he is your enemy precisely because he can find nothing in you that gives glory to God. Perhaps he fears you because he can find nothing in you of God's love and God's kindness and God's patience and mercy and understanding of the weakness of men.

Do not be too quick to condemn the man who no longer believes in God, for it is perhaps your own coldness and avarice, your mediocrity and materialism, your sensuality and selfishness that have killed his faith."

---Thomas Merton

I like this quote, Elizabeth. What it says simply, IMO, is what the scriptures say about complaining about the speck in your brother's eye when you have a beam in your own.

"You" can be taken to be plural and applied the the church as a whole. What kind of picture have we left to the unsaved world? Something that would draw them to Christ or to turn them away, hopeless and bitter?

Sure, GG would find fault with it! He didn't say it first.
The above sentence in italics was a response to SJ's reference to how GG would have interpreted Elizabeth's quote. SJ has deleted that part of her post.

[Scruffy]

"Do not be too quick to assume that your enemy is an enemy of God just because she is your enemy. Perhaps she is your enemy precisely because she can find nothing in you that gives glory to God. Perhaps she fears you because she can find nothing in you of God's love and God's kindness and God's patience and mercy and understanding of the weakness of men.

Do not be too quick to condemn the woman who no longer believes in God, for it is perhaps your own coldness and avarice, your mediocrity and materialism, your sensuality and selfishness that have killed her faith."

---Thomas Merton


For the women on the board.   I like this version even better.   

This sounded like a good quote at first, and I love Thomas Merton, but the more I read it, I thought, this isn't true and this offers a lot of guilt and condemnation toward the believer.  I cannot think of a scripture that says this or even a passage.  So I have to conclude - this is not God's perspective.  This perspective seems to drive the Lord's people out of guilt to take the sins of others on themselves.  The fact is we can do nothing/very little about the sins and wrong thinking of others much less our own selves.  Past making the best choices daily for Christ that we can, we are God's responsibility and heaven's.  So are all others. 

The Word says to preach the Word...share with others, love them, go out to them.  It doesn't say that if they lose faith that it was because you didn't do it right....essentially "you were a bad example." I think the human soul has enough sin nature that it is condemned already.  Yes, there are those who can trip up or cause others' faith to shipwreck, but I dare say that this is the case with most believers.  Most of God's people try very hard to win others to Christ. 

This is surprising for Thomas Merton.  Perhaps it was taken out of context which changed the intended meaning.

Respectfully, Elizabeth, IMO, there is something about this quote that is inconsistent with the Spirit of the Lord.  No offense intended - after all, you didn't write it.

sj

 

"Then said He unto the disciples. It is impossible but that offences will come; but woe unto him, through whom they come! It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."

[al Hartman]

       Political freedom cannot exist in any land where religion controls the
       state, and religious freedom cannot exist in any land where the state
       controls religion.

               --Samuel James Ervin Jr.,
                 lawyer, judge, and senator(1896-1985)

[al Hartman]

          To bless him who gives is easy, but to cling to him who
          takes away is a work of grace.

          --Spurgeon

[al Hartman]

       ...The bent and bias of the soul in all its internal workings must be toward God--the serving of Him in all we do and the enjoying of Him in all we have.  This is principally intended in the commands given us to "pray always" (Luke 21:36), to "pray without ceasing" (1 Thess. 5:17), to "continue in prayer" (Col. 4:2).  Even when we are not making actual addresses to God, we must have habitual inclinations toward Him.  A man in health, though he is not always eating, always has a disposition in him toward the nourishment and delights of the body.  In this way we must always be waiting on God, as our chief good, and moving toward Him.

     --Matthew Henry

[al Hartman]

   ...refuse to speculate beyond Scripture and insist on proclaiming the whole counsel of God, not simply the passages that seem to reinforce one-sided emphases.  It is not a question of where the logic should lead us but where the Scriptures do lead us.  It might be easier to resolve the mystery in simple, either-or solutions, but such a course would certainly not be safer.

                  -- Michael S. Horton

[Oscar]

   ...refuse to speculate beyond Scripture and insist on proclaiming the whole counsel of God, not simply the passages that seem to reinforce one-sided emphases.  It is not a question of where the logic should lead us but where the Scriptures do lead us.  It might be easier to resolve the mystery in simple, either-or solutions, but such a course would certainly not be safer.

                  -- Michael S. Horton

Al,

What a strange thing for Michael Horton to say!!  He is a staunch Calvinist, and ascribes to a theological system that is derived from the application of the very methodology that he is exhorting us to avoid.   

What is the context of the quote??

Tom

[al Hartman]

   ...refuse to speculate beyond Scripture and insist on proclaiming the whole counsel of God, not simply the passages that seem to reinforce one-sided emphases.  It is not a question of where the logic should lead us but where the Scriptures do lead us.  It might be easier to resolve the mystery in simple, either-or solutions, but such a course would certainly not be safer.

                  -- Michael S. Horton

Al,

What a strange thing for Michael Horton to say!!  He is a staunch Calvinist, and ascribes to a theological system that is derived from the application of the very methodology that he is exhorting us to avoid.   

What is the context of the quote??

Tom

Tom,

The article is entitled "Reformed Theology Vs. Hyper-Calvinism," and is one of a series of articles by various Reformed authors on the general topic "No Strings Attached -- What Reformed Theology Is Not."  The articles appear in the Nov. issue of Tabletalk, a publication of Ligonier Ministries.  Their overall point is to use "the way of negation" to demonstrate that true Reformation Theology, or Calvinism, is neither what non-Calvinists teach it to be,  nor is it exemplified by extremists who choose to call themselves Calvinists.


Here's another gem from the same series: 

"...God's sovereign grace is the basis for the life of prayer, which is the very heart of personal piety.  Prayer is not a way of getting something that God has no intention of giving -- of persuading Him to do something He doesn't want to do.  Rather, it is a way of surrendering our own will to God's sovereign purpose.  We pray according to the promises of God, asking Him to do what only He can do, and then waiting for Him to answer.  We are all Calvinists when we pray, because in prayer we submit to the sovereignty of God, trusting His gracious plan for our lives."

                -- Phillip Graham Ryken


I'm sure you have read Calvin-- Have you studied "Calvinism" as taught by current theologians of the Reformed perspective?


It is my personal opinion that Calvin would find utterly abhorrent the use of his name attached to Reformation theology as the label of a movement, but that is a separate matter.

al

[Oscar]

Al,

Tom,

The article is entitled "Reformed Theology Vs. Hyper-Calvinism," and is one of a series of articles by various Reformed authors on the general topic "No Strings Attached -- What Reformed Theology Is Not."  The articles appear in the Nov. issue of Tabletalk, a publication of Ligonier Ministries.  Their overall point is to use "the way of negation" to demonstrate that true Reformation Theology, or Calvinism, is neither what non-Calvinists teach it to be,  nor is it exemplified by extremists who choose to call themselves Calvinists.


Here's another gem from the same series: 

"...God's sovereign grace is the basis for the life of prayer, which is the very heart of personal piety.  Prayer is not a way of getting something that God has no intention of giving -- of persuading Him to do something He doesn't want to do.  Rather, it is a way of surrendering our own will to God's sovereign purpose.  We pray according to the promises of God, asking Him to do what only He can do, and then waiting for Him to answer.  We are all Calvinists when we pray, because in prayer we submit to the sovereignty of God, trusting His gracious plan for our lives."

                -- Phillip Graham Ryken


I'm sure you have read Calvin-- Have you studied "Calvinism" as taught by current theologians of the Reformed perspective?


It is my personal opinion that Calvin would find utterly abhorrent the use of his name attached to Reformation theology as the label of a movement, but that is a separate matter.

al

1. It sure seems strange to me that R. C. Sproul's magazine would call someone else a hyper-Calvinist.  I have a tape by him in my study.  In it he claims that Charles Ryrie, editor of the "Ryrie Study Bible" preaches "another gospel" and is under God's curse.  When I first heard it I backed it up and listened again, questioning whether or not I had heared him correctly.  Unfortunately, I had.   

Since Ryrie's gospel is pretty much what is taught in most evangelical churches, it made me wonder if he thinks that all of us, or all preachers at least, are equally accursed.  He didn't say so outright. 

As to Horton, I have read one of his books, "Made In America", and some of his articles.  In the book he claims that evangelical Christianity is a big mistake, and not "real" Christianity.

2. To me, it is funny/pathetic for Calvinists to refer to their (semi) Reformed theology as "Reformation Theology".  Calvinism was influential, but was only a small part of the Magisterial Reformation, (the part led by magistrates).  The Lutherans and Anglicans were the majority crowd.  Calvinism took hold in Switzerland and Scotland, and was pretty big in France before it was suppressed.  But to call their part, "Reformation Theology" seems to smack of hubris to me.

Most evangelical churches can trace their descent back to the larger, "Radical Reformation".  That produced all the Baptist/Methodist/Ev. Free/Pentecostal/Bretheren (of various stripes)/Campbellite and so on churches that we know today.  It took place among people who rejected priestcraft in all its forms, and also rejected the power of the state over the church.

3. Most of my professors at Talbot were Calvinists.  I got quite a bit of Calvinist teaching from them.  As you know, I read a lot as well.  I had one professor who called himself an Arminian.  He was such an admirer of Calvin, (not necessarily Calvinism) that he taught seminars on Calvin's Institutes.

Blessings,

Tom

[al Hartman]

Tom,

Good enough for me.  So where does that leave you on the original quote by Horton and the one by Ryken?  I gather that by your saying that Horton's words seem "strange" coming from him that you are saying that a man with bad theology actually said something right?

al

[Uncle Buck]

One of Ronald Reagans favorite stories was one about the parents with the overly optimistic son. In an effort to make a realist out of the boy, they placed him in a stable full of horse manure and ordered him to shovel it out. When they came back to check his progress, the parents expected him to be miserable, tired, and cured of his optimism. Instead, they found him whistling cheerfully as he happily shoveled his way through the mountain of manure. "Why,"  they asked the boy, "are you so happy?"
"Well, with all this manure around," the boy replied, "there's gotta be a pony in here somewhere!"

[outdeep]

According to Dianne Feinstein, Roe v. Wade is critically important because "women all over America have come to depend on it." At its most majestic, this precious right that women "have come to depend on" is the right to have sex with men they don't want to have children with.

There's a stirring principle! Leave aside the part of this precious constitutional right that involves (1) not allowing Americans to vote on the matter, and (2) suctioning brains out of half-born babies. The right to have sex with men you don't want to have children with is not exactly "Give me liberty, or give me death."

-Ann Coulter

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/anncoulter/2006/01/12/182062.html

[David Mauldin]

Admire those who seek the truth, question those who say thay found it.

[al Hartman]

Admire those who seek the truth, question those who say thay found it.

Paraphrased: Feign joy that there is truth to be sought , but never, ever, allow it to be defined .