God brought me here.

[Joe Denner]

Chuck,

I talked with Andrea and she thoroughly enjoyed her time with you and your wife the other night.  And, she is really hoping to make it to your place tomorrow for worship.  She is going to my sister's church in the morning, so she wasn't absolutely sure if she was going to be able to make it.  But, I know she is going to try.

And, you are correct.  She is a wonderful, godly woman.  She has been a great support to me in my walk with Christ.  And there is no one I would rather be with than her.  She is truly my closest friend and companion.  And on top of it all she is a great mother for our troop of 7.

I look forward to talking with you sometime and getting your input on things.  God bless you and your family, and those in your fellowship.

Walking in Sunlight,

Joe

[Kimberley Tobin]

.......As we stand in this time of great sorrow and great hope, REMEMBER YOUR ENEMY....It is easy to begin pointing the finger and going,"It's their fault, or them." "It is that brother."  "Two years ago, he offended me."  We can all say that of each other.  We have all been offended and since we are humans, we have offended.  We need to forgive and pray hard........

We have a responsibility that when someone says something, or when something is preached, we do not sit back on our rear-ends and "take their word for it."  We must search the scriptures and seek if these things are true.........

Now concerning this assembly, I have heard many things, but mostly all the time, it is backed up by the living word of God.  And when it isn't, I am responsible before God to go look it up for myself and really seek the truth.........

God is not going to let you off the hook for another man's false teaching.  I think He might say something like,"Yes, I know that preacher taught you wrongly, and he will be responsible for that.  But you had My WORD.  You always had the Bible to look it up.  Why didn't you?"  God does not want us to walk blindly but circumspectly, always comparing the world around us, with the word of God.

Acts 17:11  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they recieved the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scripture daily, whether these things were so.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Luke:

1)  It is interesting that you ask us to remember who our enemy is.  The assembly taught that those who left fellowship were their enemy.  We had "left the covering of God".  We were often referred to as "Diabolos."  Yes, I would like for ALL of us to remember who the TRUE enemy is, it is satan and ALL of God's children are just that, GOD'S CHILDREN, not DIABOLOS.  

2)  Most of the offenses that are discussed on this board are not petty.  They are serious.  Shepherds are going to be held to a higher standard and it is not a petty thing that we are discussing regarding these shepherds who have abused their spiritual authority.  God looks at these things seriously and thus, so should we as his people.  

3)  Again, these shepherd have taken the scripture and so twisted it that what you are encouraging us to do (although scripturally accurate) flys in the face of the practical teaching in this place.  We are not to criticize the leadership.  We are to submit to the leadership, EVEN IF THEY ARE WRONG!  If you ever do bring up your thoughts regarding a teaching that you believe to be not doctrinally correct, you are told that you are being divisive and you are warned to cease from such activity.  This is the practicial teaching in the assembly.  THIS MUST CHANGE.  If you don't see this as an active teaching, that is simply because you have never practiced challenging those in leadership in this manner.  

4)  God does not say he is going to hold the sheep accountable for the wolves that come in not sparing the flock, who lead the sheep astray.  It is the teachers of the word of God He is going to hold accountable.

2Peter 2 and James 3:1

Luke, the problem boils down to.....for the most part, you are right.  You just don't see that this is NOT what the assembly teaches.  This is why those of us who have left, are continually beating the drum for the kind of change that allows for just what you are writing about.

[Oscar]

Laura, Luke R., John 1335,

I understand how you feel.  However, I don't think you realize just how much has changed with the excommunication of George Geftakys.

Let me ask you a question.  From where do your "leading brothers" get their authority to lead?  No local assembly in the Geftakys system ever chose their own leaders.  I sat in the Fullerton worker's meetings for years and saw what went on.  

Of course, the theory is that  the Lord raises up leaders in every local assembly and the people just recognize what God has done.   In reality the choice of who would lead in each local assembly was made in Fullerton by George Geftakys.  You see, Big G. thought he had "apostolic authority", and later, after I left, he wrote things in the T&T that sure sound like a claim to be an apostle to me.

So, his apostolic authority turned out to be bogus.  Where does that leave the local assemblies?  Should these men just appoint themselves as leaders?   Where does the Bible teach that?

What was taught in your assemblies for decades was that Christians have to choose between God's, (meaning George's), appointments and man's appointments.  

So I go back to my original question-From where do your leaders get their authority?  Will they continue the ridiculous pretense that an apostle has appointed them, and thus continue the false system of George Geftakys?  Will they continue to lord it over the people of God because they received an "apostolic" appointment?

Or, will they admit that what was taught in their assemblies for years was false teaching?   That they were recipients of perks for years because of a man's bogus authority?

Or will they face the fact that they need to either step down or seek confirmation from the saints that they truly wish them to continue as leaders?  In other words, will they hold some kind of an election?   That could be done, but in doing so they will be admitting that the Word of God has never been taught  correctly in the George Geftakys assemblies.
Sticky wicket, what?

Will they change the financial policies and "provide for things open and honest in the sight of all men"?  There's a verse that, as far as I know, has NEVER been mentioned in the assemblies.  It wasn't when I was there.

Are they going to obey the tax laws according to Romans 13?
Or are they going to continue George Geftaky's claim to be ABOVE all law because they are "God's Government"?

Are they going to continue the "snitch" system where people are encouraged to demonstrate their "spiritual" commitment by tattling on others over any and all percieved opinions or actions that they might not approve of?

So you see, dear ones, that the Word of God has not been taught or OBEYED as well as it has seemed to you.  

I sincerely hope that these men will in all honesty before God and man do all they can to put things right in their fellowships, by whatever means necessary.  If they don't, then they are deceived and decievers.

I know some of these men.  I have blessed memories of some of them.  I believe that they are sincere Christians.  But sometimes we are presented with difficult choices, and these brothers need to face up and "quit you like men".

I take no pleasure in saying these things, but you need to know that all is not right in these groups.  It's not about your feelings of being led.  It is about TRUTH, INTEGRITY, RIGHTEOUSNESS, and OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

[Joseph Reisinger]

Tom,
Hi.  I've never met you to my knowledge, but I've been considering this issue of the appointing of bishops(elders) and deacons in the different assemblies.  Although I was not present at Fullerton workers meetings, and therefore do not see this issue from your viewpoint, I have seen some things in God's word to help bring some light to my considerations.
In Acts 14:23, we read of Paul and Barnabas 'ordained them elders in every church', speaking of those cities they had visited
In Titus 1:5, we read of Paul's instruction to Titus, to 'ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:'
These, to the best of my knowledge, are the only examples of elders being ordained in the new testament. (please correct me if you know otherwise)
There is one example that I know, of deacons being chosen - and that was in Acts 6:5-6.  This was in Jerusalem, and was done by the whole multitude.  (At the advice of the apostles)
Beyond these examples, I know of no others.  It would seem then that it would not be according to the pattern in scripture for a local gathering to choose their own elders.  Deacons, however, were chosen by a local gathering.

Now, what I do not know.. is what would constitute apostolic authority.  How would a church today know who has this apostolic authority?  However, I believe that there is yet answers to the issue which you are addressing.  Paul tells us of guidelines by which we may put the lives of elders and deacons in our local gatherings to the test of God's word.  I Timothy 3 deals with both elders and deacons, and Titus 1:6-9 again addresses the requirements for elders.  These passages are quite clear - and are not only requirements for one to become an elder or deacon, but speak of a life which must be lived before God and the sight of His people for all the time that they hold that office.

So, as each individual member of each assembly has a responsiblity to read these passages at such a time as this, and see if the elder or deacon matches the qualities that are laid out in God's word.
Joseph Reisinger

[Oscar]

John,


"So, as each individual member of each assembly has a responsiblity to read these passages at such a time as this, and see if the elder or deacon matches the qualities that are laid out in God's word."

The lists of qualifications found in the NT were for the purpose of selecting the candidates for the position.  Not for confirming people who have already siezed, or have been improperly appointed, to said postition.

First of all, there is something that GG and other folks of Plymouth Brethren opinions are going to have to face.  THE APOSTLES ARE DEAD.  There is no one with apostolic authority.  Not in Rome or in Fullerton or in Chicago.
The bible says NOTHING of the office of the apostle continuing, nor about their authority being passed on to anyone.

Second, how are the Lord's people supposed to indicate whether or not they accept X as a leader? How will everyone know that this is the choice of the assembly?
The scriptures don't really tell us.  Most Christians feel that where God didn't give us instructions, we must use our intelligence, and look to the scriptures for what HAS been given.

In other words, we are talking about some form of election.  Show of hands, voice vote, ballots, whatever.  How else are we going to do it?

Even in Fullerton they had elections of a sort.   GG put people in positions, and if you didn't like it, you voted no.

With your feet.

I remember your mom and dad well.  We had some good times together.  Greet them for me.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

[Joseph Reisinger]

Tom,

"First of all, there is something that GG and other folks of Plymouth Brethren opinions are going to have to face.  THE APOSTLES ARE DEAD.  There is no one with apostolic authority.  "

From reading your last post - it would indicate that you believe that all gatherings, be they Plymouth Brethren, these assemblies, or any other church which has its elders appointed or ordained by anyone other than voting in some way by the local gathering - should ask their elders to step down.
Is this what you believe?  I do not want to put words in your mouth... but I was wondering what you meant by... "how much has changed with the excommunication of George Geftakys."  because it seems as if you believe that the only way to ordain elders or deacons is to have them voted in.  If that is so, then nothing (in light of the "rightness" of the ordination) would have changed with the excommunication of George Geftakys - for you were saying he wasn't an apostle in the first place.
Could you clarify?

By the way, I will give greetings to my parents for you.
Joseph

[Scott McCumber]

Hi, Joe,

From another Midwest Assembly Kid (escaped).

This won't answer your doctrinal questions directed at Tom, but I want to make sure something is clear.

George was not an apostle. He never appointed any leading brother or elder based on their fitness to lead and/or care for the flock.

He appointed "lieutenants" who he thought: a) would carry out his policies, b) carried enough popular local lodge support that they needed a title or c) contributed an above average amount financially to his "ministry".

No, not all leaders turned out to be as horrific as others and some certainly grew into their positions and served the Lord as well as they were able. But make no mistake as to why someone was originally appointed to leadership in the Geftakys ministry: They served George's purpose.

Scott

[Oscar]

Tom,

"First of all, there is something that GG and other folks of Plymouth Brethren opinions are going to have to face.  THE APOSTLES ARE DEAD.  There is no one with apostolic authority.  "

From reading your last post - it would indicate that you believe that all gatherings, be they Plymouth Brethren, these assemblies, or any other church which has its elders appointed or ordained by anyone other than voting in some way by the local gathering - should ask their elders to step down.
Is this what you believe?  I do not want to put words in your mouth... but I was wondering what you meant by... "how much has changed with the excommunication of George Geftakys."  because it seems as if you believe that the only way to ordain elders or deacons is to have them voted in.  If that is so, then nothing (in light of the "rightness" of the ordination) would have changed with the excommunication of George Geftakys - for you were saying he wasn't an apostle in the first place.
Could you clarify?

By the way, I will give greetings to my parents for you.
Joseph

Joseph,

My point is that the current leadership of the Geftakys assemblies fails both the tests we have discussed here.
1. They were not appointed by apostolic authority.
2. They were not put in place by the people in their assembies.

In other words, they are, to borrow Scott's term, Leftover Lieutenants.  What Scott said is true, they were chosen by GG for GG's purposes.  What GG would do is that after he had attracted some followers in a place, he would appoint "leading brothers" from the fellows that were there.  Later, as other people were attracted to the ministry he would sometimes replace the original leaders with men he felt were more capable or more loyal to him.

Now, it has been many years and I haven't thought about this for a long time, but I think that that is what happened to Gene and John Atwood.  If I remember correctly they were leading brothers at first in Chicago, and then were "asked to step down", (translation into plain English: Kicked out), later.   GG was quite open about this.  He would say, "You were all we had".  

Most evangelical churches don't need to ask their leaders to step down, because they have never made any pretense of them being appointed by apostolic authority.  They were chosen either directly, as in congregational churches, or indirectly, as in Presbyterian churches, by their respective congregations.  Only the Catholics and Greek Orthodox really claim apostolic authority for their leaders.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

[Joseph Reisinger]

Dear Tom and Scott,
Thank you for taking your time to discuss these things with me.  I have a couple of questions.

Scott,
you mentioned in your post, "He never appointed any leading brother or elder based on their fitness to lead and/or care for the flock."  
Do you have any proof to back this up?  I would find it hard to judge a man's motives at every point in these last 30 years.
Also "c) contributed an above average amount financially to his "ministry"."
As far back as I can remember, there was a box in the back where money was offered.  I wasn't aware of any personal checks being given, or of names on the cash put in.  How would George know?  Maybe you know something I don't.
just a personal question as well, how old were you when you left this ministry?

Tom,
I appreciate your re-iteration of your point.  I think the question I had was a broader one though.  Is it correct that You believe that there is no more apostolic authority in the world today?  If there is, who has it?  
Secondly, if it is true that there is no apostolic authority, then would you say that any gathering with elders who have been "appointed" by one man as opposed to voted on by the group should ask their elders to step down?  This is a broader question than just these assemblies.
Thank you for your concern,
Joseph

[Scott McCumber]

Joseph,

Of course I have proof! Every time George appointed a leader he called me first! Forgive the sarcasm, all in fun.

You will find that many times in life you will not be able to know every thing you want to know in order to make decisions, judgements, opinions. You will have to learn to weigh many things in the balance and come to a conclusion.

I have no problem stating an opinion and finding out I was wrong. In this case, I hope that I am. But I'm not.

Yes, I know something you don't. I know a lot that you don't. I know about land donated to George. Inheritances signed over. Cars purchased. Companies in names you would not recognize. A small town in Greece. A facility in SLO.

Do I have court documents to prove these things. No. Do I need them to feel confident in believing: no. You may. That's fine. Do some digging. Call some people.

Frankly, Joe, I don't really care about proving any of these things so that others might believe. Fellowship how you want, with whom you want in whatever manner you feel the Lord leads you.

I'm not out to drag anyone kicking and screaming out of the Assembly. But I do have an interest in how things turn out here for many reasons that I will not go into in this particular post.

I was 20 when I left for good. My parents stayed for several years after that. Many of my friends (actually they rejected me when I left) stayed up until the last couple of weeks.

(I added this later via Modify)

I know you didn't ask me about the appointment of elders and I certainly do not presume to answer for Tom whose studies and experience are far beyond mine, but I will venture an opinion:

I don't think you can say that ANY gathering who has appointed leadership should ask them to step down. Why not? Because if you are not a part of that gathering it is not your business.

Most doctrinal issues are not issues of salvation. Who cares if they appoint or elect leaders? Who cares if their women wear headcoverings during this gathering but not that one?

The question is: Should we (as in you and the saints in your particular gathering) ask our elders to step aside because we don't believe (if you don't) that they were appointed correctly or by God's will, etc.

That answer is not easy either. Just because they may have been appointed by George for the wrong reasons doesn't mean they have not been faithful stewards. You may be quite happy with your local leadership. Keep them! Just remember that the head of the house is the man and the head of the man is Christ Jesus - not the elders appointed or elected. They are (or should be) protectors, counsellors, teachers, etc.

OK, I'm done! Just one guy's opinion.

Tell your dad, 'hi'. He was always cool to me.

Scott

[Oscar]

Joseph,

"Tom,
I appreciate your re-iteration of your point.  I think the question I had was a broader one though.  Is it correct that You believe that there is no more apostolic authority in the world today?  If there is, who has it?  
Secondly, if it is true that there is no apostolic authority, then would you say that any gathering with elders who have been "appointed" by one man as opposed to voted on by the group should ask their elders to step down?  This is a broader question than just these assemblies.
Thank you for your concern,
Joseph"

Joseph,

We have apostolic authority today in the New Testament scriptures.  They either were written by or approved by the apostles.  (See F. F. Bruce, "The New Testament Documents, Are They Reliable").

I have encountered a few other claims of apostolic authority.  I always ask, can you work the "signs of the apostle"?  2 Cor. 12:12.  It always stops right there.

There are things the apostles didn't tell us.  This is one of them.  The whole assembly thing is predicated on the idea that the NT gives us a pattern for EVERY aspect of Church life.
When you get out among the Church which is His body, you find out that almost no one believes this.  It just doesn't wash.  Among those who do believe it, if you look you will very soon see that there are MANY unwritten rules of church life.

Example, in Fullerton every Sunday, the Holy Spirit inspired the ministry, right?  We did not follow a man made program.  What most never saw was the leading brothers being grilled by George before the meeting.  "Do you have a word brother?"  "Do you?"  "Do you."  No yak about being "led by the Spirit" there.  

What time should meetings begin?  What time should they end?  How many meetings a week?  The scriptures say not a word about these things, and many more.

So, the difference is that most churches, when they are going to decide how to do something that the Bible does not give specific direction about, they just do it and say so.
In the assemblies and similar groups, they just do it and REFUSE to say so.

Regarding the question about people being appointed leaders by one man, should they be asked to step down.   If there was a false claim about apostolic authority, (believe me GG is not the only one who has done this), there shoud be a close examination of their status AT LEAST.

Two questions should be asked;
1. Are they qualified?  An objective criteria, such as the characteristics of elders from scripture must be applied.  But what if they have participated in the abuse cover up?  Or some other acts of evil.  I believe that men can be recovered. But to get my support, they would have to openly confess their guilt, seek forgiveness, and SUBMIT themselves to some OUTSIDE accountability for a considerable period of time.  God's Church has many godly men able and willing to do this.  But it would be costly.  Doctrines would be examined, and "Brother George or Brother X says so" wont cut it.

2. Are the people willing to follow them, to acknowledge them as their leaders?  Just because you know and love someone is not enough.  To submit my self and my family to the teaching and influence of a man, with all the human weaknesses, is a serious decision.  I believe that secret balloting is the best method to avoid social pressure and hurt feelings.  I can love someone while still believing that they are not qualified for some position.  

So, you can see that if the assemblies are to continue, there is much work to do.  The question is, are they willing to do it?

Why aren't the elders and leading brothers participating in this discussion?

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

[Joe Denner]

Tom,

I am a "leading brother" in Lombard.   I hope to enter into this discussion more later.  I am appreciating very much the challenges that you are issuing for us to think about.  (I have not read your whole conversation with Joseph yet).  I am running out the door to watch the Super Bowl in a few minutes.

I will say this.  The other leading brother in Lombard and I have gone before the saints in fellowship (a couple of weeks ago) and asked them to please pray about whether or not they believe that we should continue in a deacon capacity.  I am leaving it there for them to pray about.  We have told them they can talk to us, e-mail us, or give a "secret ballot" to us.  I am not boasting in saying this.  I am agreeing with what you are saying.

Hope to e-talk with you more later on this (after the game and after I can get caught up on this thread).


Joe

[John1335]

Dear Tom,

I am sorry for your experiences with the dishonesty and unrighteousness of certain brethren. Their failure has been great. Thank you for warning me to beware of unrighteousness and the spirit of error. I do think however you will find that God has managed to prevent the infection from this sin from spreading in many places.

I do want to give my testimony to the experience of what God has done in Seattle - having been here from the beginning. I testify to God's goodness. Our desire is and has been Christ - to love Him, to serve Him, to express Him. Our challenge to others is to follow Him. I admit that we need Jesus. Christians have come to our meetings from many different ministries, fellowships & denominations over the years and have testified to the presence of God and the love of the brethren and have we have known great joy with eachother. I'm sorry for your experience, but mine has been truly rich. I can only say He has been merciful to me.

I do have a few questions for you though...  

Do you think it is possible for God to work & bless despite George?
Is God limited by George?
Have those who have been in the presence of George committed the unpardonable sin?

I personally am of the opinion God is far greater than George and in fact He is able to transcend the image/stigma that was left by him. Don't get me wrong, I praise God for those who brought to light the sin of the "Georgisms" so they can be dealt with and eradicated. "Adams likeness now efface, stamp thine image in its place!" I sure don't seek to rebuild the ruins of George - this was never our project anyways. The work here in Seattle is certainly not the rubble of George either. Frankly, now that this has been/is being dealt with, I can't wait to see what God will do! May He truly get what He wants however He wants.

I do say I am saddened by the critical unforgiving spirit I see here by some. I do not see the spirit of Christ in them. I do sympathize for them for the wrongs done to them. May God heal them and there be no root of bitterness left so they too will know God's mercy & forgiveness at His appearing. Hopefully this forum does not become a cannibal feast, devouring eachother because of their failures. May the Light expose the darkness, but may it bring healing as well.

Do remember the end of God's judgment is restoration.

Zeph 3:13 But I will leave among you a lowly people, and they will take refuge in the name of the Lord.

[Laura]

What you, John1335, just wrote is my feeling exactly! Especially the part about God being able to work and bless despite George.

What the enemy intends for evil the Lord can, and does, use for good. And I believe that is what the Lord is doing in this situation. "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water" as the brothers here say. I think some would benefit greatly if they just reflected on their experiences and tried to draw out the postive. I believe it would profit everyone if they really examined their beliefs and discovered for themselves what God wants them to get out of their experience. To my knowlegde, there is no way to delete the past so the best thing to do would be to learn from past and see to it that mistakes are not repeated in the future.

To borrow the colloquailism, "what doesn't kill us can only make us stronger."

May God continue to bless you all-
Laura

[H]

With respect to the abuses of leadership, I think Ezekiel 34 is especially appropriate. Isn't it wonderful to remember that the Lord Himself is the True Shepherd and He will take care of His sheep!

H

Ezekiel 34
1   And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2   Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
3   Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
4   The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
5   And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
6   My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.
7   Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
8   As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;
9   Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
10   Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
11   For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12   As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
13   And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
14   I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.
15   I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.
16   I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.