God brought me here.

[jesusfreak]

Hi Joseph,

What I meant was that there was an incredible emphasis on meeting attendence, and this was the verse that was always used to justify coming to someone that missed a meeting.  Haven't you ever heard, "Brother ,we missed you. " I sincerely believe this was meant to solicit an answer of why you weren't at the meeting, and not goodwill. This verse applies to the person who WILLFULLY, HABITUALLY forsakes the assembling together. This to me seems like they are doing this in a rebellious way.

Taking a break for the sake of seeking God, is hardly "forsaking fellowship."

Just thought I should add little something on this note.  

I moved out of my parent's house into a school dorm 3 years ago.  Since this school is 40 minutes away from the meetings, that puts a dampener on my attendence.  Coupled with projects, dinner meetings with scientists/politicians, and other activities, this pretty much kills my meeting attendence completely.

I usually don't make it to the weekly meetings, and I average about 2 Sundays a month.  Now, sometimes I am gone for a month or 2 at a time.  When I finally get to a meeting (whether after being gone for a week, or even those months), i am always greeted and the "Brother, we missed you" is very common.  I have heard this comment many many times, but never once have I had anything but appreciation at the care of the Saints.  I do not burst into explanation as to the events of the past week, but simply take it as a greeting.

This may not be the situation you are refering to in terms of chronic absentism as I do go to every meeting I am able to attend, but just another viewpoint.  I am actaully thankful that I have had the opportunity to be stuck on campus on the occassional weekend, as it frees me up to visit other churches in the area and see how they do things.

[John1335]

Kimberly

Job 12:1-2 And Job answered and said, no doubt but ye are the people...

Sounds like you were in boot camp...sure glad I wasn't.

My family (wife & 3 kids @ time) & I lived with Mike & Meg Glesener. Don't know if you knew them. It was the best time we ever had. Later we shared a place w/Ken & Jori Cachelin - old Arcatites (what a blessed time we had). I'd do it again but they probably won't have me now - ha ha (house has grown a bit since then).

I personally never felt the pressure you described. We didn't have any SS enforcement party checking up to see where the prisnoers were either.

Boy are you sure you were part of the same work as me?

Regarding the inheritance, I don't know about you, but I'm trusting the Lord.

Regards

[retread]

This is just amazing!  I haven't been on the web site for about one or two days and already it is up to four pages!!  I know that this is a little far ahead of when I wrote and when the rebuttals came, but I would like to speak about this right now, if that is okay.

It does get difficult to keep up with the volume of posts here. I'll try to be short and to the point. Luke, of course it is okay for you to speak about this now.  We do appreciate your perspective.  If we didn't care about you, we would have just ignored you (and as you saw, we did not just ignore you).

Dear Retread,
Concerning your letter, don't the assembly leaders use the word to back up what they are speaking?  I cannot speak for everyone, but I know many of these brothers and know them to be God-fearing men who seek to do the Lord's will.

I also can't speak for everyone, but as for the Geftakys clan on the west coast, I have first hand experience.  I have heard the lies. I have heard them tell others to lie as well. This is not Godly leadership The leadership in my local assembly also had first hand exposure to the lies, but refused to stand up for what was right, and rather followed the will of the Geftakys clan. I can see of no way that they could back up these actions by using the Word of God.

I know there has been a lot of sin and that has been dealt with.  George and David have been removed, and many of those that have lied or covered up have repented, and some have stepped down.  But do you know the hearts of these men?  Can you say when they are serving the Lord and when they are not?  How do you know who was serving the Lord and who wasn't?  Retread, we need to know the Lord's mind in all things and not jump to conclusions, no matter what failings you see in their lives.  This does not mean that some have been sinning.  That some have lived secret lives, and chose to cover up the sin instead of bringing it in to the light.

I was not talking about "secret lives", I was talking about the leadership's belief system.  Lies, deceit, and abuse, this was their life, this is what I saw! Their open actions to lie, deceive and cover up their sins were part of their belief system.  Their "open" actions were to glorify themselves, not Christ.  I was talking about their leadership sins, not what might be thought of as their personal sins. Their actions would indicate that they did not have Christ as their foundation.  They had failed from step one.  I truly believe that the Geftakys clan's foundation was not in Christ, and because of this their house fell, and they will be personally accountable for the results of this.  We are left with many broken pieces, which only God can put together.

But there has been true repentance from many brothers, and those that haven't, you need to pray for.  Yes, many lives have been hurt over the years, and maybe some more reconciliation still needs to take place.  We need to stop placing blanket statements such as: "For the assembly leaders to associate their lies, abuse and deceit with the message of Christ is despicable."
There were certain ONES that did these things.

Yes of course there were certain ONES.  I was referring to "the assembly leaders" as a group entity, not individuals.  I don't consider what I posted to be a blanket statement.  If there were assembly leaders who did not "associate their lies, abuse and deceit with the message of Christ", then of course they should not be blamed for this particular offense.  But the assembly leadership did do these things (I am a witness), and those who did are accountable for their actions.

It does not solve anything to say these things, only to stir up more anger in your mind and in the minds of others.

Dear Luke, please trust me when I say, that there is no personal anger in my mind towards any of the leadership who wronged me. I say these things to warn others of what I have seen, to protect my brothers and sisters in Christ.  We need to be sure that we are submitting ourselves to God, and resisting the devil as stated in James 4:7.  This is what I am striving to do, I am not striving to incite anger.

Yes, these men were in leadership so they will be held with great responsibility.  But pray for them.  Don't use this oppurtunity to turn your back on these people because a few failed. We all fail miserably in our lives, but God does not let us go, so neither should we let others go.

Yes, and the fact that they were in leadership and running the show is the problem, and because of this the lives of many have been impacted.  If you only knew how much this hurts my heart.  I pray with tears for my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.  Don't worry Luke, I have not turned my back on anybody, and the saints in the various "assembly" fellowships are in my prayers (yes, you too Luke).

To liken what God is doing in this place to Satan worshippers, is not logical, and is not pleasing to the Lord.  He knows what He is going to do, so we need to trust Him for it.

Luke, I am most certainly not likening what God is doing "anywhere" to Satan worshippers!  Please do not even suggest this. I consider your insinuation "not logical and not pleasing to the Lord".  Please do not "insinuate" that I said things that I never have said or never would say. Let me be clear on what I said:

For the assembly leaders to associate their lies, abuse and deceit with the message of Christ is despicable.  We would expect this from Satan worshipers.  But to do these things in the guise of serving the Lord is mocking Christ, not preaching Christ.

I said that I would expect associating lies and abuse and deceit with the message of Christ from satan worshipers, and I would.  I also said that having assembly leadership do these things is despicable, and it is!  To do any of these evils in the guise of serving the Lord is also mocking Him, not preaching Christ.  I do not know how I could be convinced otherwise, nor can I imagine how you could agree otherwise.  The reason why satan worshippers came to mind for my example, was that you said you were not taught satanic worship (and I would not have expected you to have been). Perhaps we have a failure in communication going on here.

You are using your opinion for most of this article in saying that these men were not serving the Lord and they were only using Him

No, I was not basing this on an opinion, this was based on first hand face to face experience with the leadership in the Geftakys clan.

I have sat under hours of ministry, here in St. Louis, and I can tell you for a fact that these men are serving the Lord.  You know why?  Because I see their actions, I pray for them, and the Lord gives me total peace in this place where He has put me.  I don't need anyone else to give me peace, because it is only temperal, and empty.  Only in God.  And He wants me here.

I can't speak for St. Louis, as I have not had real exposure to their leadership. You say that you see their actions, well I saw the assembly leaders actions too, and the actions that I saw were to glorify themselves, not Christ.  This was made extremely clear to me.  This was like day and night, no doubt about it.  But praise God, for those who are faithful and do serve him.

Of course there is a lot more that can be said about the various "Assembly" gatherings, both good and bad, but I have carefully looked over what I wrote, and it appears to accurately convey the points that I was trying to get across, and I still stand by it.  Here is my original reply for those who care.

Dear Luke:

You say that Christ was preached.  Well actions speak louder than words.  For the assembly leaders to associate their lies, abuse and deceit with the message of Christ is despicable.  We would expect this from Satan worshipers.  But to do these things in the guise of serving the Lord is mocking Christ, not preaching Christ.  These people were in leadership and they hurt their flock, this is WRONG WRONG WONG!!!  They used Christ they didn't serve him.  In the words of Bob Dylan:

You got to serve somebody
Might be the devil, might be the Lord
But we all got to serve somebody

All that I can say is these men were not serving Christ.

Yes, I can only assume that some were serving the Lord, but the actions of others can only lead me to believe that they were not.

[Oscar]

                   GEFTAKYS LITE

Hi folks,

My goodness! Two complete pages since yesterday.

I want to add my $.02 to Brad's recounting of GG's "prophetic gift".

Brad said,
"
To put your heart at rest...I humbly offer my own experience with GG. In 1980...when I was a whopping 11 years old...George and Betty convinced my parents to send me to Fullerton ( Cal State Fullerton campus) and live in their home for summer school....the impetus for this "honor" was the impending end of the WORLD! I am not kidding. I was told, convinced and truly believed that GOD was returning at the end of 1984....NO LATER. As Scott McCumber, Gerrod Farlow, Lee Irons, Kris Frederich all can attest this was seriously held to be accurate by our assembly in Tuscola, Omaha, Chicago, Fullerton etc, etc..etc.. so as a ripe sixth grader I started attending the Assemblies version of  College Seminary (which continued until 1987). I was shocked that GOD did not return in the clouds in the summer/fall of 1984. Go back, look at the minestry records for the Midwest Seminar for that time period..(good luck finding any or a Torch and testimony of that era...) GG preached adamantly that Christ was coming...in 1984 no question.  According to GG and his summer school teachings on the old testament...a "Prophet was to be judged by their accuracy" those who were from GOD were vindicated by their prophecy actually occuring...those who did not get it right....were stoned."

I was the "worker" in the San Fernando Valley from 1972 to 1980 or so.  Back in 72 0r 73 some terrorists had kidnapped and murdered a Canadian diplomat.  In a Bible study in the Valley GG predicted that all civil liberties would be suspended in the USA within one year.   Needless to say he was slightly mistaken.  I put that one in my red flag file.

Then in the middle 70's he began his, "The Lord is coming in the 1980's" warnings.  I studied through his verses and interpretation, and decided he was wrong.
So...one night when he was in the Valley we went for a walk.  I, not realizing just how delusive he was, said to him, "You know Brother George, this idea of yours about Christ coming in the 1980's is based on some pretty tenuous interpretations of verses.  If you don't watch out, you are going to discredit yourself."

He didn't say much, other than to ask me why I thought this.
Then the next Sunday he got up and preached it again.
In his "ministry" he said, "A brother who thinks he knows a lot warned me about this.  That just makes me want to preach it all the more."

So much for his prophetic gift.

Now, I want to say something to the younger brothers who are hoping to see the assemblies morph into Reformed Geftakys Assemblies, or GEFTAKYS LIGHT.

1. I can certainly understand why you wish to see the assemblies continue.  The most painful aspect of all in leaving was the loss of all meaningful relationships with people you loved.  Having them turn against you HURT.  I wouldn't want to lose their fellowship either.

2. You do not realize just how many of your ideas and interpretations come right out of GG's mouth.  That Hebrews 10:25 quote from "guest" is a good example.  
FOR CRYING OUT LOUD YOUR LEADER'S REFUSED TO OBEY THIS VERSE FOR YEARS!  They despised their brothers and sisters for decades.  They were "special", the "community of light and life..."you know the rest.  It will take YEARS to see and purge some of these underlying assumptions from your group culture.
"IF YOU LIE DOWN WITH DOGS YOU GET UP WITH FLEAS".

3. Apart from the teachings of George Geftakys, what is the purpose of these assemblies?  Remember, they were supposed to be "testimonies", showing forth the mind of Christ.   Once GG told me he had "blown away" a minister who visited him and showing him many of your parents in a seminar photograph in his study.  "I told him, that's power", was his boast.   I thought, "Chuck Smith's ministry has raised up more CHURCHES than you have followers."
Relationships are very important.  But they are not the base purpose of the church....to worship God and spread the gospel.

4. If you continue the silly belief that you see the "true" pattern for the church and the vast majority of Christians don't, all you will ever be is another tiny Plymouth Brethren sect, smug in imagined "superiority" as you cluck your tongues over the darkened condition of other groups, all the while dividing into ever smaller groups over such weighty issues as which hand the sisters should use to put their head coverings on.

5.  Your understanding of the Bible is steeped in a theological system taught by George Geftakys.  Is it true?  Do you have the understanding to evaluate it objectively?
This is why you need outside help and accountablity so badly.

Enough for now.  Dear bretheren, I do not doubt your sincerity and good intention at all.  I seriously question your wisdom.

God bless and lead,
Thomas Maddux

[John1335]

Dear brother Tom,
Thankyou for your genuine concern & great wisdom.

A few thoughts

1. Hebrews 13:1 Let love of the brethren continue. (leaving isn't necessarily losing)

2. John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. (Outside help? I need inside help! - aka Holy Spirit)

3. Eph 3:10-11 "...in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus" - (Purpose of the church...hmmm)

4. Luke 12:32 Do not be afraid little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. - (silly little flocks)

Dear saints,
This is probably my last post to this forum.

For those who sounded the alarm - Thankyou very much.
For those who are still bitter, may God bring healing you - we pray for you.
And may God get the glory in all this.

Please feel free to contact me by email if you wish to correspond - I would love to hear how you are doing.
If you have visited us in Seattle in the past and wonder how we are doing please email me (Russ Pittman) at...

thepittmans@peoplepc.com

[Stovros]

I haven't been following this whole website very long, but from what I gather, everybody thinks the other person is wrong in some way.  I am assuming that all those posting on this website are christians, a.k.a. followers of Christ.  I am assuming we all have been saved by the Biblical definition which states, "That if thou shalt confess with your mouth Christ Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."  If you do not believe that is the way to be saved, this message does not apply to you.
Now, we may all have our differences, some are in the assembly and some are not, both believe they are doing the right thing.  One thing we all have in common is the Bible itself.  I would like to say that we all have common goals, such as, the goal to please God, and the goal to be in Heaven with God.  Regardless as to what you believe about the assemblies, I hope that we can agree on those few things.  Regardless of what George did, regardless of what we believe should be done with the elders, regardless of what should be done with the assemblies,.........etc., we all have a desire to see God's work grow.  I believe that can naturally be assumed by the fact that we are christians, and a christian will not knowingly attmept to snuff out God's work.

Now, there are some who would enjoy nothing less than to see God's work fall, namely, satan and his demons.  There is nothing he would enjoy more than to tear apart the saints of God, to cause arguing, to bring contention, to put thoughts in our minds about another saint, to argue to the point of being an offense about a particular point.  If the God's saints are spending all their time arguing and not praying, not seeking Him, and tearing each other down, what are we doing but playing right into satan's hands.  Do you see what I'm trying to say?  We are in a battle together, like it or not.  We need each other in order to get through this.  Are you angry at another saint?  Have you offended someone?  Make it right, because that will only hinder our power with God.  I just wanted to make sure that we are not missing the point here:  this website was made to help each other out, and I believe Brent will agree with me on that.  Do not use it to share bitterness, build up the others.  There is place for rebuke and correction, but in love, which is not something I am seeing all the time.  If we do not do this, we will be left hurt and offended, which is not what the Bible calls us to.

Some of you may be right, some may be wrong, but we can all agree on the truth of the Bible.  Search the scritures for the answers, help each other out along the way, if there is a bitterness towards another saint, make it right, ask God to take that bitterness away, pray with each other, but above all, don't take sides.  We are christians and we need each others help.

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Retread,
Well, as you can see, we are thousands of miles apart.  And I did not see what you've seen and you have not seen what I've seen.  Sorry, it is just that it seemed like you were speaking about all the leaders with the different statements you made.  We have seen different things.  You have seen deceit and sin in the leadership in your assembly while I have seen a lot of light and a lot of love.  I just don't want to see the wrong ones get blasted, you know what I mean?  Well, I see that we are on the same side, praying for the same things, and hoping for the best.  We have had a few misunderstandings and this is all getting cleared up.  Thank you for your post and your prayers.  I was getting the wrong impression about you and you probably were getting some about me.  But I see now that you are wanting the best, and many on this web site like that, are few and far between.  It is mostly an attitude that God has left every assembly and that there is rampant abuse of the leadership everywhere.  I am not saying that you do this, but I read many articles and posts about such things.  There has been libel and other things strewn across this website.  And bitterness and anger shown to different people either in the assembly or out of it.  And I mostly disagree with different people because I don't see it in the place where I am at.  I am very sorrowful that such things could be happening, but I am at peace, with God and with man.  And this is just one of the things I have been learning in this horrific time.  We need to start building bridges as the people of God, and stop tearing them down.    God is getting His perfect work and so we can just keep on praying.  Thank you for praying for me, and if I knew your name, I would do the same.  If you would tell me, I will pray.  We can fight the good fight on the same team, as the body of Christ.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray for one another, that ye may be healed.  The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Thank you for your time and feedback.  
A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

[John1335]

Great perspective Strovos!

Let's stand together for the cause of Christ

[Joseph Reisinger]

Thank you Stovros, I need to keep remembering that.
Your brother in Christ,
Joseph

[Joe Denner]

Luke,

I just wanted to say "thank you" for how you have shared your heart on these matters.  It has been a real encouragement to me.  I know that God will lead you.  He is the Good Shepherd.

Please greet your family for me.

And, thank you to Strovos as well.  Perspective is an important ingredient in where we are headed.  May it be that which is of the Spirit.

Under His Wings,

Joe

[Oscar]

John 1335,

You have just given us an example of what I am talking about.


"2. John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. (Outside help? I need inside help! - aka Holy Spirit)"

Here is a passage from the Gospel of John where the Lord Jesus is talking to the APOSTLES.  He is promising them that the Holy Spirit will enable them to remember and understand His words spoken when He was WITH THEM. (all that I said to you).

Now you lift the passage out of its context, apply it to yourself instead of the to the people it was addressed to, and ignore the fact that none of us ever heard the words that are to be "brought to rememberence".

You consider this understanding the Word of God?  This is exactly the kind of thing that we saw and heard in the assemblies.  This is nonsense multiplied.  


3. Eph 3:10-11 "...in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus" - (Purpose of the church...hmmm)

Again, a standard Plymouth Brethren interpretation of the passage.  Right off the pages of the Brethren writers where George G. learned it, and taught it to your leaders, who taught it to you.  

The manifold wisdom of God of which Paul speaks is found in verses 4-6.
A truth that was never revealed before has now been revealed through the apostles and prophets.  God's purpose is not just for Israel, but God in his wisdom has purposed to include the Gentiles in the body of Christ.  And this is to be made known to rulers and authorities in the heavenly places NOW through the church.

NOW my dear brothers was 2000 years ago!  Yes, this union of Jew and Gentile in Christ is ongoing until our day, and it is seen in the CHURCH.  That means the Church which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.   NOT JUST YOUR LITTLE ASSEMBLIES!

Here again, George Geftakys speaks through your mouths.  His ideas are guiding your thoughts.  No I don't mean some mystical influence, I just mean that you have been taught to think this way, and you don't have a broader knowledge base to compare these ideas with.


"4. Luke 12:32 Do not be afraid little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. - (silly little flocks)"

Again, ONLY YOU are the little flock.  The Good Shepherd doesn't really care about ALL his flock.  Only the special ones, the true testimony, the community of light and life ........ This is so  sad.

This is why you folks so desparately need outside help!  

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

[Sebastian Andrew]

Excellent Tom.
I still remember getting excited when I started to get a glimmer of understanding on how God has made from..."twain one new man."

[Stovros]

Keep in my mind that I was not saying that we should stop debating in order to find the truth, I just don't want you to forget who you are debating, and they are your fellow saints.  Don't let the debate get in the way of helping each other along.

[Kimberley Tobin]

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.  And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."  Jude 21-23

To those of you who are fairly new to this BB and the information that has rocked the "assembly" to it's very foundation: those of us who have been posting here since this BB's inception are here for one reason and one reason only, the love of our brethren.  This information, while new to most of you, has been known for many, many years.  Those who have "left" the "assembly" have clarity in varying degrees (for those who have been gone longer there is "more" clarity-time brings this through rightly understanding the scriptures.)  What some of you term "bitterness" or "arguing" is really deflecting the mind (something George and Betty inculcated VERY WELL in the "assembly") from the topic at hand: understanding what you are involved with at its CORE is UNSCRIPTURAL.

Please understand me, I believe those who are staying with their various "assemblies" are extremely SINCERE.  Sincerity does not make you RIGHT.  If you do not go back to THE CORE TEACHINGS, you are missing the boat.  We're not here to "argue" whether there is love for the brethren in your representative "assembly".  We KNOW YOU LOVE THE BRETHREN.  I am earnestly PLEADING WITH YOU to stop deflecting the conversation away from our MAIN POINT.  George & Betty taught your "leaders" and "workers" heretical, unscriptural teachings.  Your thinking is replete with Georgeisms and you aren't even aware of them.  You want us to continually bring out what these are (and we have at various points) but until each one of these localities will address this issue seriously, rather than in debate form, by bringing in the local pastoral community, you will never go beyond the teachings of George and Betty, regardless of the fact they are no longer associated with the ministry.

What are you afraid of by bringing in men and women who have been trained in seminary (rightly, I might add) to verify that what is being taught is scriptural?  My husband and I, one of the newest ones to leave, are so new at this and yet in a basic doctrine class at our church, we are seeing completely wrong interpretation of the scriptures by the "assembly"  regarding the basic truths of salvation, conversion, regeneration, justification and sanctification.  Dear brothers and sisters, this is the milk of the word!

"I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to hear it, neither yet now are ye able." 1Cor 3:2 - Go ahead and read the whole passage of chapter 3, it is rather enlightening, discussing where your foundation is laid, on a man or on Christ.  While I know you will, with one accord, say your foundation is laid upon Christ, you have been following the teachings of ONE MAN-GEORGE GEFTAKYS.  He does not teach in line with mainstream christianity on the fundamentals of the faith.  THIS IS DANGEROUS!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love you my brothers and sisters and am praying for you,

Kimberley

[Joyful]

Tom,

Our Lord Jesus spoke things to His apostles so that WE could continue in the things He said.  One of my (if not THE) favorite passages in the Bible is I John 1:1-4:
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;  (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)  That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.  And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.  
Now I will quickly agree that we need to use some sense when we read the Scriptures (I don't think we all need to be tarrying in an upper room), but I am absolutely convinced that they had absolutely no "advantage" 2000 years ago over someone that puts their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ today (or tomorrow).  If we will give heed to what they heard, saw, looked upon, and handled, we can enjoy the same fellowship with the Father and with His Son that they had.  The Lord knew what He was doing when He departed (so He could send His Spirit to guide us into all truth).  

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. (Jn. 17:20-23)