God brought me here.

[Observer]

Kimberley,

If the failure of a man or a few men has 'rocked the "assembly" to it's very foundation', then there would likely be no "church" left in the world today.  The personal failures are something that must be dealt with, but no man and no man's ministry are the foundation of what I am believing.  To me, it is a sorrow that you are so adamant in your attacks on God's people.

I think that many would do well to take heed to the wisdom of Gamaliel.

[Observer]

Kimberley,

If the failure of a man or a few men has 'rocked the "assembly" to it's very foundation', then there would likely be no "church" left in the world today.  The personal failures are something that must be dealt with, but no man and no man's ministry are the foundation of what I am believing.  To me, it is a sorrow that you are so adamant in your attacks on God's people.

I think that many would do well to take heed to the wisdom of Gamaliel.

[Kimberley Tobin]

Observer:

I am not attacking God's people.  I am attacking the doctrine and it's practices.  Yours is the circular reasoning that is so prevalent in the "assembly".  Don't tell me that what has transpired in the last three weeks has not "rocked the assembly to it's very foundation."  Otherwise, it would be business as usual.  It is not.  The members are questioning the core tenants of what they have believed in, etc.  Whether you like to admit it or not, what is transpiring throughout is members questioning exactly where the foundation of their faith has been placed, on Christ, or on a teaching that one man has perpetrated, George Geftakys.  They might not be able to articulate it as such, but it is happening nonetheless.

I am glad that you are not following a man or his ministry.  Then you would be willing to seek the advice of Godly men and women who are not associated with the "assembly" in order to make sure that whatever "assembly" you are gathering with is adhering to proper biblical understanding in order to clear yourself in the matter.

[Phil Strangman]

I want to add to that, Observer. I agree with you on the first part. I don't know where the Church would be today if everyone left every time its leaders were found to be in evil. All those heretics in the first few centuries, the traditions that snuck in creating the Catholic system, the Inquisition, the indulgences, all those crazy cults that formed in America like Oneida in the early 1800s, on and on and on! I am only 19 and probably have only scratched the surface of knowledge as far as church history goes, but even through the problems of the Catholic church with its corrupt leaders sending armies off to kill thousands, perhaps millions of innocent lives (ever read about the Children's Crusade? Sick and disgusting), men like Francis of Assisi, Brother Lawrence, and others maintained a walk with God.

Here's where I am. I agree that the leadership in every assembly needs to take an honest look at themselves. I need to look at myself, others do. Everybody does!! A verse says, The heart of man is evil, who can know it? (paraphrased)  But if we say that all the assemblies need to go, what happens to all the individual walks with God? Hopefully they can find another church, but is that what's best? Would they keep growing? The Assembly has had a lot, a lot of problems, but don't think that other churches haven't. There was a church up near Gloucestor, MA where a lot of family lives that lost over half of its membership suddenly. Why? Because several of the influential members started dabbling in Masonry, and the pastor of that church made a stand against it, and those people angrily left and took others with them.

Is there not so much that we can learn as we repent and learn about what God wants us to change? That's why at this present time I'm staying. I love the people here in St. Louis (and you can go ahead and fault assembly child training or assembly brainwashing or whatever) and I want to be there for them. We are all "brainwashed" in that we have parents or guardians who raise up and teach us morals and right and wrong, without letting us make up our minds about them.

Whatever needs to be changed, I trust God to show me, because now, Hallelujah! I no longer will look to one human being for the answers like I did before. I looked up to Br. George so much. I have memories of watching him at the Midwest Seminar and thinking how wise he was, but I've been delivered from that now! I no longer will look at the leading brothers as leading brothers. I will respect them and listen to them because they are older and they have learned a lot about walking with the Lord and they ARE learning a lot right now, but I will never look at them the same way again. If I need to talk to them about something or address them about something, then may God give me the strength to do it because I've never done that before.

At the same time I don't want a little thing to set me off and make a scene, everyone has personalities and I have to allow for that. But if God wants me to address something, then by His grace I'll do it. I'm not claiming power in any way there. That's something we all have to be willing to do. The people who left sure did it, to sometimes disastrous results. But I don't have to be afraid any more! They are my FRIENDS! I love them! Do you suddenly leave a friend when he's done something wrong? You stick with your friends! I look at them differently now, but that's ok! There's nothing wrong with that! As a matter of fact, one "leading brother" here said that he doesn't want to be called that term anymore. Now you can go ahead and say, "But you know, he's still going to ACT just like a leading brother!!" We'll see. He's exercised to preach on Sunday afternoon, he has the capacity. I won't tell him he shouldn't until there's a good reason why he shouldn't. You see what I mean? I don't want to just jump the gun so much. Time hasn't sped up at all, as far as I know.

I've rambled here and I may have not said some things carefully. Forgive me if this is offensive in any way, and let me know what you think it is. This is where I'm at. I'm willing to admit that I don't want to leave, and I'm trying to say why. I'm sure there's more to it, there always is, isn't there? Must we always do what we don't want to do? Must we always do what others tell us to do?

Again, I've rambled. See above.

Peace

[Laura]

I think a lot of people have not given credit to the fact that those staying with the assemblies are people. What I'm saying is that we are not nameless lab rats that have there every thought imposed on them. We are capable of researching things and drawing our own conclusions. Just because something is said doesn't mean we believe it (this BB is testimony of that). We all own our own Bibles, and last time I check George didn't issue a new one. In fact everyone on this BB has the SAME BIBLE! (give or take the translation) I think your underestimating God's ablitiy to speak to people through that (and their personal conversations with the Lord). If the Lord has something to say, NO man can stop Him. Are you all trying to say that the Lord hasn't spoken to different brethen individualy and that the brethen who have stayed have not iintensly searched the Bible and God's heart for answers? I can honestly say that is not the case here in ST. Louis and in many other places. Do not belittle a brother's conviction. You do not know where they came from! Each of us has been changed by this and each of us has gone to God for answers. That's right GOD not George. So while you are debating all of this don't forget that everyone here has done there research (no one who has stayed has been brainwashed!) God is still speaking to all of us and we need to(and have been) going to His Truth(the Bible) ultimatly for answers.

Didn't mean to offend, just putting it out there

Laura

[Joseph Reisinger]

Kimberly,
Thank you so much for your post.

"Don't tell me that what has transpired in the last three weeks has not "rocked the assembly to it's very foundation."  "
That's it.  That's what has happened.  If you came and listened to what is said - to what things are discussed.  You would see that it is so.  I can only speak for our gathering, but it has been "rocked... to it's very foundation"

"clear yourself in the matter. "
This is the need.  The need for each gathering is to take IICor7:9-11 and pray, and confess, and do WHATEVER it takes to both be clear AND prove ourselves clear.

I see that I have been blind, and we have been blind, not to see the missuse of God's word.  I have been proud, and we have been proud and elitist, thinking form more important than Godly humility.  I have been and we have been ignoble chicagoans - not standing as a gathering against false teaching.  The fruit, as has been said, has rotted on the vine.  The evidence of an unhealthy gathering is here.  I see lastly, that I yet do not know all that is wrong or has been taught wrong.
I have one recourse.  That God will, as we confess our sins (not only individually, but as locales), be faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Kimberly, Nancy, Tony, Tom, Brent, I do not want to ever make you, or any others on here my enemy.. or treat you as such.
I am reminded of what I read today in Galations 4
"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? "
Please keep telling the truth.  We need to keep hearing it.
Joseph

[brad]

 TO: Joseph, Strovos, John1335,Phil and all current  conflicted Assembly observers wondering about all of this...

Tom, Verne, Kimberly...and all "enlightened" posters...

It is abundantly clear to me and most that it would be impossible to agree on these weighty matters. Far too fresh are the wounds and fears and way too many people are emotionally charged, hurt and reeling from the recent Assembly events.

 After being away from the Assembly for 15 years...it would be difficult at best for me or Tom, or Verne to understand all of the issues, changes and "improvements" to the local churches. For those still on the edge of decision...you seriously don't know what is out there in the modern Evangelical realm of Christianity...if you did, most of this discussion would be MOOT.

My fear after reading, watching and praying...is that we could miss the entire point. HOW IS GOD being honored here? The truth has been revealed...minds and hearts have been challenged even confronted. Now its up to those individuals to seek the mind of the Lord. Mutual respect and patience is a "must" for this BB to be effective.

Satan would love for us all to forget who we are ( children of GOD) and our mission to impact the world for JESUS. I hope we can all keep this perspective and move forward. Prayer is our greatest weapon...not our keen intellects.

My feelings and thoughts are based on the pain and relief of seeing GOD work the most impossible good out of sooooo many of man's twisted attempts to do the right thing. Lets not loose sight of grace in the process of discussion.

I see the emotional undercurrents and pain here boiling around the real turmoil that must quickly come now to the front of our minds....A CHOICE IS GOING TO BE MADE....one way or another. The basic facts remain unchanged....George is gone, the Assemblies have a huge decision to make....re-organize and go on in the shadow of this fiasco... or disperse in a reasonable manner and join with fellow scriptural based churches for healing and perspective. I don't believe that most of us here have the influence or ability to make those decisions and we might want to pray for those who do?

For those of us ( myself included) who have left....we really have no right to try and influence anyone else. IF they want to delve into the years of abuse, deception and control...fine.  Right now thought, the choice to continue or disband is really on the front line and thats their problem to solve. I would entreat you all to strive to encourage our fellow Christians and to reveal the facts related to these vital issues so information is not repressed and the cycle begins again.

Peace my brothers and sisters...

[editor]

Brad

That was an excellent assessment of the situation.

That's really the crux of the matter.  What choice are we going to make?  To stay and attempt to keep this wonderful work of George going?  Or to disband and find healing in a sound church?

I suggest that the vast majority of "saints," are not equipped to lead a church.  The temptation to go back to what they learned under George will be impossible to escape, short of a genuine miracle.  While this may occurr somewhere, it won't occurr in every gathering.  Especially the ones that had George, David and Mike Zach around alot.

Brent

[Phil Strangman]

Questions...

Brad, could you explain what you meant by "what is out there in the modern Evangelical realm of Christianity?" I have some idea, I've been to some youth groups before and a dear friend of mine and partner in musical crime goes to a Baptist church, but what do you mean?

Brent, why must the choice be to dispand in order to find healing? Cannot God restore and there healing be found? I am not saying that the assemblies WILL be restored, we don't know yet. Does a church really get one shot and once they fail, that's it?

Peace,

[H]

I am not going to tell Phil, Observer or any of the others what they should or should not do with respect to their involvement with their particular local assembly. If they have humbly and prayerfully sought the Lord's will in the matter and have concluded that the Lord wants them to stay there for the time being, then I am not going to tell them to go against their conscience in this matter. However, I do agree with Kimberley when she said that there has been "completely wrong interpretation of the scriptures by the "assembly"  regarding the basic truths of salvation, conversion, regeneration, justification and sanctification." As she said, that is "the milk of the word". That's why I started the thread about "For whom did the Lord Jesus Christ die? (And why is it important?)". (By the way, I feel like I have just barely gotten started on that topic. I have much more to write, but unfortunately, I don't have a lot of spare time. I have a full-time job, a family, and am active in my local fellowship, preaching and leading Bible studies. But I do intend to continue, as time permits.)

I believe it is very important to have a correct understanding of the basics of salvation, so I would like to encourage all present and former members of GG's assemblies to re-evaluate what they have been taught in light of the Bible. Search the Scriptures to see if these things are so (Acts 17:11). I have been reading and studying the Bible for over 30 years (among other things, I have learned NT Greek and have read the entire NT twice in the original Greek), and I believe that the Lord in His amazing goodness has taught me a few things (not because I am anything, but because He is so gracious and wonderful!). I am willing to share the things that I believe the Lord has taught me, but I am also willing to listen to and learn from others (especially if they are polite and friendly!). If someone can show me convincing evidence from the Bible that what I believe is not true, then I am always prepared to change my views (however, simply quoting verses without giving solid reasons for your interpretation will not be enough to convince me; I am already familiar with all the verses). I only want to believe what the Bible truly teaches, and I hope the same applies to those who are reading this post. Even if the Lord does not use what I write to open someone's eyes to the truth, I will still do my best to love them and treat them with respect and courtesy (I have good friends who do not agree with me, and I still love them). It would be nice if those who post responses to my writings could also treat me with respect and courtesy, even if they do not succeed in convincing me that they are right. I am very grateful for the gracious attitude and behavior of the editor of this site. My posts here have not been censored, edited, maligned or deleted by the editors, unlike "the other site."  Thanks Brent! May the Lord richly bless you and your family! Keep up the good work!

Love in Christ,
H

[Scott McCumber]

Phil,

One of the basic tenets of the Geftakys doctrine is that the Geftakys doctrine is the one true doctrine. A doctrine that has been restored to its truest New Testament form.

This doctrine was revealed to George and it was his charge as a latter day apostle to teach a select group of "saints" the true way. These points are to be found throughout George's teachings.

Because of this mind-set, the majory of Geftakys saints have been taught, sometimes subtly and sometimes forcefully, that other Christians in the world are "playing games" or unenlightened, or worldy Christians or carnal or one of a dozen other variations on the same theme.

This attitude eventually breeds a contempt in many hearts for the Christian who is not involved in the Geftakys ministry. If a church uses instruments in its worship, for instance, it was dismissed as worldly as saints were encouraged to look down on these poor unenlightened souls.

I could expand on that and give a dozen more examples but anyone in the Assembly knows in their heart how a critical spirit arises whenever they are confronted with Christians outside of the Assembly.

What those of us who left have found out is that MANY  Christians who are not involved in the Assembly live fruitful, joyous Christian lives of freedom. I have been told dozens of times by ex-Assembly members that they had no idea what life in Christ is truly like - the freedom, the joy, the openness.

We have also discovered that 90% of doctrinal issues are NOT issues of salvation. And we are not compelled to convince other Christians that they must follow our patterns of worship or doctrine.

When we ALL get to heaven the saints who believe in covering a woman's head will be fellowshipping with the saints who have bands on Sunday morning!

More later.

Scott

[brad]

Phil, I wish I knew more about you...how old you are..where you live generally and your personal interests...

The reason is simple...because there are that many variations and opportunities for genuine christian fellowship. Promise Keepers, South American vacation/mission trips with your local churches...Chuck Swindoll, Jack Hayford, Bishop TD Jakes, AudioAdrenaline, Wycliff, Tyndale house publishers, Big Idea Productions, Max Lucado, Fernado Ortega music, John Eldridge, Rich Mullins lyrics...incredible displays of diversity and unity within a "non-denominational" campus minestry ( ie. Campus Crusade, Inter-varsity Christian Fellowship, Youth for Christ..etc.)

My personal recommendation is to visit several ( more than 2) local and evangelistic churches who have a written doctrinal statement of faith. (ie..Evangelical Free Churches are my personal comfort level)  Have lunch with a pastor, go to their Sunday school or small groups and listen...pray and let GOD show you the marvelous new concepts and revelations that can and do occur every day with his saints...

My other challenge is to look up everyone of those authors or artists referred to above...these are serious and gifted leaders of todays global church. You will be amazed at their depth and encouraging thoughts of every issue you can think to ponder...

Good luck my friend and fear not...seriously don't be afraid to do this. I ask where you are so that others on this BB could give honest and helpful suggestions of reputable churches in your area.

Peace...

[Luke Robinson]

It is obvious that most of these conversations are getting nowhere.  I and a few others on this sight, have decided to stick with the assembly, while some want pastors to be put into every assembly.  I just don't understand the continual struggle over this matter.  I wonder, why do those that have left, seeing that George has been kicked out and that many have repented, still care so much about the assembly?  Yes, I've heard that everything taught is false and all of the leaders are crooks and criminals, but why don't you write to the Johovah's Witnesses?  The Mormons?  The Muslims?  Don't they need your help?  We are going around in circles discussing how different words in the Bible make sense or don't make sense.  This is ludicrous and is only building a wall again, between the assembly people and the people that want to get rid of the assembly.  Folks, what about the possibility that He is working now?  Right now, through these men, of whom you seem to be so knowledgable of.  This site is like getting into the CIA files.  "Did you hear about--?  You know that--".  Paul was just a regular tent maker before He was called to be a minister of salvation.  The disciples were fishermen and tax collectors.  They did not go through multiple years of seminary, but God still used them just the same.  Some men are chiropractors.  Some are programmers.  Some are garbage collectors and school custodians.  But God will call whom He will.  He is no respector of persons.  OK, so we decide to put in a whole bunch of pastors.  Would the web site fold?  No, I don't think so, it will continue to be a place for everyone to take their personal problems out on others and for others to dictate God's will to those "totally oblivious".  Let us use good judgement when we address these topics, and do not limit God as to what He should do or shouldn't do at this time.  May God get the glory and may we learn to agree that what binds us is not the assembly or the local church but Jesus Christ and He is not divisive but holy and just, and He will have the FINAL SAY.  I continue to hope the best in this situation and want God to work His perfect work.  

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

[Scott McCumber]

Luke,

Why do I care so much? OK, this may be one of those heat of the moment posts that gets me in trouble but here goes:

I care because if someone had followed through on this a long time it would have saved some beautiful and innocent women a beating.

I care because I tasted blood in my mouth after a particularly vicious backhand by David Geftakys when I was 15.

I care because the thought of opening my bible, praying or fellowshipping with God's people literally made me sick to my stomach for years because of what I endured.

I care because I can look back now and can see with perfect clarity how the subtle abuse of this doctrine has affected my entire adult life.

I care because the leadership of the Assembly once told friends of mine that their severely retarded son was not going to heaven and they needed to play George's ministry in an endless loop in the child's bedroom.

I care because just because you have not seen these things doesn't mean they are not going on all over this country.

I care because these things WERE NOT perpetrated by a man, they were perpetrated by a flawed doctrine.

I care because this same doctrine will remain in force even though GG is temporarily disgraced in most, but not all of his lodges.

I care because your dad and my dad were good friends once.

I care because if no one else does, this will start up again within a year.

Do you want some more, little brother? There's lots!

Scott

[Luke Robinson]

Also, Dear Brent,

Please refrain from calling me decieved.  I have full confidence in who I am following, and He hasn't steered me the wrong way yet.  As Laura said before, we are not helpless lab rats, but we are people seeking the Lord's will as individuals and as a corporate body of Christ.  I am not decieved but I am at peace.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson