Worship

[Arlene]

Where in scripture does it say the bread and the cup is worship?
Or, that the offering is a part of our worship?
Or, only leading brothers can give the ministry before the Lords Supper?

[JS]

Hi,
The way I understand the Lord's Supper being a part of worship, is that it is a remembrance of what the Lord Jesus accomplished on the cross for us.  Remembering what He has done for us can be considered worship.

Our offering is a part of worship
Deuteronomy 26:4,10 And the priest shall take the basket out of thine hand, and set it down before the altar of the LORD thy God.
And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O LORD, hast given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the LORD thy God:

As for only leading brother's giving the word before the Lord's supper, I think it depends on which "assembly."  I've done it many times in different places and I'm not a LB.

Joel

[Joe Denner]

Good questions.

I agree with Joel on his third point.  I have been involved in two different assemblies and in both places there were non-LB's who were not only allowed, but who were also encouraged to share something before the Lord's Supper.


Joe

[Arlene]

Thank you Joe and Joel.

[Oscar]

Hi saints,

Say, I've been reading your posts, and I would like to say a few things on this subject.

First, let me say that there is no such thing as "the worship".

The Bible teaches that our entire lives are to be an offering, an act of worship.  Romans 12:1-2.  It teaches in Hebrews that we can worship God with prayer, songs, and giving.

Now, of course we can come together to worship God, in song and prayer.  But the idea that there is some pattern of worship that all Christians are supposed to follow is not taught in the New Testament.  That idea was for the old testament.

In the assemblies we were always taught that we were to "come together on the first day of the week to break bread".  This comes from Acts 20: 7-11.

Did you ever notice what they actually did?  
1. They came together to break bread.
2. Paul started preaching.
3. Paul preached until midnight.
4 Eutychus fell out the window
5. Paul restored him to life.
6. Paul gave thanks for the bread and they ate it.  (This took place on MONDAY morning, not Sunday).
7. Paul talked until daybreak.
8. Paul left.

There it is.  No mention of a time of prayer, blessing and drinking the cup, singing of hymns, or anything else. The breaking of bread in this case, was a meal. Just like in Luke 24:30.

Whatever you want to call this, it is difficult, (impossible in my opinion), to see a Plymouth Brethren breaking of bread meeting here.  Yet, this is the flagship verse for the "New Testament pattern of worship".

Now, in saying this, I am NOT saying we can not or should not worship God during the Lord's Supper. I have absolutely no objection to the prayers and hymns.   What I am saying is that it is not necessarily the Plymouth Brethren Mass that GG learned from them and established in his assemblies.  And the idea that God will abandon His people if they don't do it just right, is pagan.
God bless,
Thomas Maddux

[Bob Sturnfield]

. . . first day of the week . . .
6. Paul gave thanks for the bread and they ate it.  (This took place on MONDAY morning, not Sunday).

I know that this is not "a major point" to what you are saying about worship, but the Sabbath ended at sundown.

Yes, I am aware that the word "day" is not in the original and the word "week" is actually sabbath, but the phrase "first of sabbath" referred to the start of a new week or "Saturday evening".

So, Paul started preaching sometime on what we would call "Saturday evening".

The breaking of bread was sometime just after midnight on Sunday morning.

[Arlene]

The question about the Lords Supper being worship was put forth because Tim G made a statement in a Sunday meeting (in Springfield a few years ago) that the Lords Supper was worship.  That statment seemed to imply the Lords Supper was the only real essential part of worship.
I do believe it is apart of worship and that it is as the scripture says, "to be done in rememberence of Him."
I put the question out because it has stayed so clear in my mind.

[psalm51]

My family and I worshipped with another fellowship of Christians this morning. It was wonderfully refreshing. God has His people everywhere who are worshipping in spirit and in truth. PTL

[Oscar]

. . . first day of the week . . .
6. Paul gave thanks for the bread and they ate it.  (This took place on MONDAY morning, not Sunday).

I know that this is not "a major point" to what you are saying about worship, but the Sabbath ended at sundown.

Yes, I am aware that the word "day" is not in the original and the word "week" is actually sabbath, but the phrase "first of sabbath" referred to the start of a new week or "Saturday evening".

So, Paul started preaching sometime on what we would call "Saturday evening".

The breaking of bread was sometime just after midnight on Sunday morning.

Bob,

You could be right.  IF 30 years after the crucifixion, 25 or so years after Paul's conversion, in a Greek speaking city, far from Palestine, with Greek brothers, Luke is reckoning time according to Jewish law.

Nevertheless, it sure isn't what was called "the worship" in GG's assemblies.

God bless,
Tom Maddux

[d3z]

Bob, I love you!  But, If Sabbath starts at sunset, it wouldn't be the first day of the week until the following suset.  Why are we discussing this?    "vyhe erev vyhe voker yom echad."  Gen 1:5 (evening and morning)

At least what I remember reading, the Jewish Sabbath started what we would call Friday evening at sunset.  The "first day of the week" would be what we call Saturday night, at sunset.

This is not what I was expecting to be my first post.

[H]

Excellent post, Tom! As you so well point out, there is no NT equivalent of the book of Leviticus. Instead, "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (2 Corinthians 3:17) Keep up the good work!
Love in Christ,
H

Hi saints,

Say, I've been reading your posts, and I would like to say a few things on this subject.

First, let me say that there is no such thing as "the worship".

The Bible teaches that our entire lives are to be an offering, an act of worship.  Romans 12:1-2.  It teaches in Hebrews that we can worship God with prayer, songs, and giving.

Now, of course we can come together to worship God, in song and prayer.  But the idea that there is some pattern of worship that all Christians are supposed to follow is not taught in the New Testament.  That idea was for the old testament.

In the assemblies we were always taught that we were to "come together on the first day of the week to break bread".  This comes from Acts 20: 7-11.

Did you ever notice what they actually did?  
1. They came together to break bread.
2. Paul started preaching.
3. Paul preached until midnight.
4 Eutychus fell out the window
5. Paul restored him to life.
6. Paul gave thanks for the bread and they ate it.  (This took place on MONDAY morning, not Sunday).
7. Paul talked until daybreak.
8. Paul left.

There it is.  No mention of a time of prayer, blessing and drinking the cup, singing of hymns, or anything else. The breaking of bread in this case, was a meal. Just like in Luke 24:30.

Whatever you want to call this, it is difficult, (impossible in my opinion), to see a Plymouth Brethren breaking of bread meeting here.  Yet, this is the flagship verse for the "New Testament pattern of worship".

Now, in saying this, I am NOT saying we can not or should not worship God during the Lord's Supper. I have absolutely no objection to the prayers and hymns.   What I am saying is that it is not necessarily the Plymouth Brethren Mass that GG learned from them and established in his assemblies.  And the idea that God will abandon His people if they don't do it just right, is pagan.
God bless,
Thomas Maddux

[Arthur]

Where in scripture does it say the bread and the cup is worship?

Nowhere in the scripture does it say that the bread and the cup is worship.  However, there is a reason why Christians eat the bread and drink the wine.  

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

In Luke 22:19-20, Jesus is with his disciples just before he was about to give his life -his body and blood- to redeem them, and he has a meal with them.  (Note that this was at the time of the Passover (ref Exo 12), a remembrance of God's deliverance that involved a lamb's blood being shed and put over the doorposts.)
This is a very precious time with his followers.  Jesus said, "With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer."  He loved them; he was going to die for them, and now it was their last meal together.  A meal is a time of fellowship, a time to be with your friends and share food and drink--that which sustains us and gives us life.  It meant something to Jesus and to his disciples.  Jesus said, "I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."  This was what he was looking forward to.  This was why he came.  He was about to give his life for these that were there at the table, and all who would believe on him through their word, to redeem them, and then they would be with him forever in His Father's kingdom.  How wonderful!  
So you see, the Lord's Supper isn't some formal whatever.  It is a time for us who also believe in Jesus to remember him and what he did for us.  We share the bread and remember his body that was broken for us.  We share the cup and remember his blood that was shed for us.  It's almost as if he is right there with us, just as he was with those first disciples on that day.  In this time of remembrance (at least this is what it is for me), there is sadness because of his death, but great joy because we know that he is risen!  
May we never forget and may our love for him always be new and strong and vital.  

In I Cor 11:17-25, we see that the Lord directly revealed and/or instructed Paul what he had previously told in person to the disciples there in that upper room just before his death. Paul wasn't there at the time.  He says of his being an apostle, that he is as one abnormally born.  So the Lord revealed it to him later.  And this is what Paul then in turn told the churches that they also should do.
Paul chastised this church because what they were doing was not celebrating the Lord's Supper (as maybe some of them thought they were doing). It obviously wasn't a time of remembering the Lord because they were being selfish and disorderly.  Then he gives them instruction as to what they should do.  He wasn't chastising them for not doing it on a certain day or with certain frequency.  He was chastising them for their behavior during it.

I think from this passage and from Acts 2:42-47, it can be inferred that it was custom for the believers to come together to partake of the Lord's Supper.   Others have already explained in this thread that there is no pattern for when or how, other than what was given by the Lord and reaffirmed by Paul, that it is to include the bread and the wine for the purpose of remembering Him.  

17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. 23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. 27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

[Arthur]

Um..ok.  But it was custom then and is custom now for believers to partake in the Lord's Supper, right?   I understand about that the book of Acts was meant more as a historical document then to set precedents or policies for believers.  Note that I didn't say that we should follow some precedent now, I just meant that they seemed to be having the Lord's Supper every once in a while back then, and probably regularly, wouldn't you agree?  And I dunno why you focused on what was really just a side point to the main point of my post, which was how wonderful the Lord Supper's is when you think about Jesus.  

[Arthur]

Ah, ok, that's cool.  I do the same thing, there are so many posts

[H]

Excellent post, Arthur! I especially liked this part (it's worth repeating):

He was about to give his life for these that were there at the table, and all who would believe on him through their word, to redeem them, and then they would be with him forever in His Father's kingdom.  How wonderful!  
So you see, the Lord's Supper isn't some formal whatever.  It is a time for us who also believe in Jesus to remember him and what he did for us.  We share the bread and remember his body that was broken for us.  We share the cup and remember his blood that was shed for us.  It's almost as if he is right there with us, just as he was with those first disciples on that day.  In this time of remembrance (at least this is what it is for me), there is sadness because of his death, but great joy because we know that he is risen!  
May we never forget and may our love for him always be new and strong and vital.  

P.S. I would like to respectfully suggest that John and Dave continue their exchange via PMs rather than posting to this thread (or post on the new "John Malone" thread). The topic of this thread is "worship", remember? I would further like to suggest that they delete their last few off-topic posts (or at least move them to the "John Malone" thread).

"Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:"
1 Peter 3:8