Note: Assembly leaders are not Nazis

[brian]

this post is ridiculously long because i have been too busy to post half as much as i would like, and all these thoughts have been waiting impatiently to be expressed for much too long.

first of all, i think an old rule of internet debate (and debate in general) could bear a good hard looking at by all of us:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

while it may feel gratifying on occasion to compare those who have oppressed you to nazis, the simple truth is that they are not nazis. the only reason a nazi analogy springs into your head is because that is the most horrific example of an oppresive regime that you are aware of, and you are trying to express your deep hurt and anxiety. anyone who is freely comparing the assembly leaders to nazi generals is working actively to prevent any meaningful exchange from taking place between themselves and those still in the assembly, especially the leaders.

it is a simple fact that an analogy never proves anything. ever. the only thing an analogy does is clarify what the person using it is trying to explain. nothing more, nothing less. a very common mistake is for someone to make an analogy, draw conclusions from the analogy, then step back and admire their beautiful flawless argument. the problem is, they haven't proven anything useful. proving that something is true in an analogy you used does not prove it is true for the subject at hand.

assembly folks (like most of the population) do this all the time, and those of you who have left the assembly don't find it at all convincing. how many evil sinful things have they compared you to? does it make you want to 'repent' and return to the assembly? why do you think doing the same to them is going to help?

in the case of comparing assembly leaders to nazis, it is nonsensical to say that nazi leaders, or nazi war prisoners, acted a particular way, and you think people in the assembly are acting the same way, and heres why the nazi people acted that way... you have already completely discredited yourself in the eyes of those you are supposedly trying to get your message across to, if they have any sense at all. they are not surrounded by nazis - they are surrounded by lifelong friends and family. their leaders are not committing war crimes, nor have they ever killed or tortured anyone (with the notable exception of david g who dosen't need the analogy because he has set his own standard of cruel, sick, and depraved behavior). the only purpose this analogy has served is to make those of you using it feel a bit better because you briefly relieved the stress inside of yourself by comparing the geftakys ministry (which hurt you and others deeply) to the most evil thing you could concieve of.

sorry, i just had to get that off my chest. group hug  

[brian]

ok, so the main point i have been wanting to post about all week concerns what i am looking for from the assembly leadership to 'make things right'. in other words, at what point will i be satisfied that they no longer need pressure towards change? this issue began coming into sharp clarity for me when brent's meeting with the leaders in slo last weekend had unexpectedly good results. they are starting to change, they want to repent and make things right... so what now? i have been thinking hard about this all week. where is the line which, once passed, will allow me in good conscience to relax in relief at a job well done and free up my time and energy for other pursuits?

one point that complicates the issue tremendously is the fact that there are huge differences between the various leaders in the assemblies. some of them have lived in complete sincerity before god, and are simply good people who were sadly misguided (for reasons i don't have time to develop right now). on the other extreme are completely corrupt leaders who have been intentionally lying and manipulating (and worse) for many years in order to maintain control over others for their own personal gain. of course, the vast majority of the leaders fall somewhere in between these two extremes, and a few perhaps fall outside of them. so what do each of these people need to do to show true change and restoration? there are no easy answers here.

let me focus on a specific situation for the purpose of clarity, and because it is the one situation we all share the most common knowledge about.

fact: the leaders in slo, every single one of them, allowed judy g to endure horrific suffering without doing anything meaningful to end it. worse, they worked actively to hold her in that position of horrific suffering. and again worse, when she finally fled the situation, they worked actively to slander her so that noone would believe her when she told the real reason she fled. the result of this was to isolate her from virtually every soul on the face of the planet that she had thought she could confide in. they knew that would be the effect of their actions when they did this to her, and that was why they did it. the realization of the depth of their crimes against this woman made my blood run cold.

lets imagine for a moment that it is concievable that someone could be a leader in slo and do all of those things, and somehow never realize the truth of the situation. this imaginary leader would be acting in complete sincerity, dutifully carrying out against judy what he believed god's will to be. what would the reaction of such a man be once he learned the truth of the horrible crimes he had committed against this woman?

"oh my god, oh my god, what have i done??? oh god, have mercy on me, a sinner!!" complete brokeness. a horrified, desperate fear that such crimes might be committed again against someone else if he stayed in leadership. a deep distrust of his once firmly held ideas of what god's will is and how to find it. a deep distrust of his own judgement as a person to know how to handle obvious situations.

all of these things would be the reaction of someone who was living in good conscience and sincerity before god in all of his leadership decisions. clearly, the current leaders are of a whole different nature altogether.

now let us consider the case of a leader who had some inkling of the wrongness of what he was doing, but ignored his conscience. every time he ignored his conscience, every day he let things continue in a way he could have guessed was wicked, every hour he resisted the tension within himself that came from his decent side compelling him to act - he grew that much harder. he became that much more morally deaf. this individual may or may not step down from his leadership position. if he did step down, he would most likely eventually allow himself to be flattered and cajoled back into a position of leadership.

and then there is the case of the leader who knew exactly what he was putting judy through and simply did not care. such an individual would be so hard and power-drunk that they would go to any length of deception to maintain or regain their position of power over others, with absolute disregard for the painful consequences of their actions in others lives.

in none of these scenerios is there any room in my mind for any of these leaders to continue functioning in leadership capacity of any sort, even under close watch by other more worthy leaders. they have each been measured, and found sadly wanting.

now, if the leaders stepped down, but the assembly meetings continued, what do we have? we have a group of people who have wanted these leaders to control them, meeting with the leaders who have clearly demonstrated a desire and ability to control others. if even one of those leaders is corrupt enough to allow themselves to be put in a position where they could decide anything about others lives, or perhaps even actively seek that position of control, it won't take long for the old habits to reassert themselves. it would fit everyones comfort zone.

so let me return to my original question: where is the line? what, in my opinion, must occur? the leaders in slo need to step down unconditionally. and they need to be actively prevented from ever rising to any position of leadership again. then we will see how much of the 'fruits' of the assembly in slo was merely due to their ability to control, and how much of it was genuine.

those same leaders need to publicly acknowledge, in their own words and from their own hearts, their part in the terrible crimes committed against judy, without excusing themselves and without placing any compulsion on judy whatsoever. she does not 'have' to communicate with them in any way, nor does she 'have' to forgive them. their problem is not one of individual sins committed, but of a compromised and malformed character, which is not restored by simple confession and repentance of individual acts of sin.

fact: they can never restore what they have taken away. ever! its an impossibility by the very nature of the situation they were dealing with - which is why they should have recognized the seriousness of what they were handling so badly right from the start! when you finally grow up and realize you can't take the effects of your decisions back, you make them much more carefully.

its getting late so let me finish by broadening my focus. what about all the other assemblies and all the other leaders? again, there are no simple easy answers. much of what i have written here applies to many situation in many different assemblies. do i think every single leaders needs to step down? i would not make such a sweeping judgement. the situation is too complex for that. but every single leader and follower does need to spend a lot of time working hard at understanding the dynamic of control and desire to be controlled that have allowed countless souls to be deeply hurt and countless years of countless lives to be wasted. if that deeply hurtful dynamic of control could be rooted out and eliminated, i would be able to move on with my life feeling very happy about that much more suffering that is no longer in the world. since that is a hopeless pipe dream, because people choose this unhealthy lifestyle every day, let me say that i believe i will be content in good conscience when i can at least believe that everyone in the assembly situation has gotten a good clear look at the unhealthy dynamic that drives this cycle of control, and leave them to whatever they decide for themselves at that point.

more later as the limits of time and space allow...

[Phil Strangman]

there are huge differences between the various leaders in the assemblies. some of them have lived in complete sincerity before god, and are simply good people who were sadly misguided (for reasons i don't have time to develop right now). on the other extreme are completely corrupt leaders who have been intentionally lying and manipulating (and worse) for many years in order to maintain control over others for their own personal gain. of course, the vast majority of the leaders fall somewhere in between these two extremes,

I agree, Brian! Thank you for sharing that. I also agree that all the leaders need to decide what they need to repent of and do it!

Peace

[Toni Fuller]

Brian and Phil,  I understand what both of you are saying.  I have nothing against the leadership in any of the assy's.  I just have been analyzing over the past few weeks many of my experience's here in St. Louis.  It is very disappointing to recall some situations of people who have come and gone thru the years and how they were treated.  I know everyone wants to see the LB's repent , change and make things right, but you also can't force it or it'll not be from their hearts, just lip service.  The reason I feel the LB's in all places should step down is that they've been so trained to think & act the way they do, you can't just automatically change for some time to come.  I think if others would take over, even for a while to come, maybe they could take a step back, and see what's truly happened.  We all are human, but God put in us a sense of how to treat people and how NOT to.  Unfortunately, I've seen horrible abuse of power, esp. over the yrs. in Tuscola !!  I used to have many dear friends and lost them due to being forced out.  God will deal with these things in His time.  Lord bless you!  Toni

[Ken Fuller]

Well said Brian.

What needs to be realized is the assembly way of thinking IS incorrect -- it's legalistic, judgemental, condemning, elitist, and on and on and on ....

You don't overcome this overnight.  WE ALL (especially the leaders) need to realize how deeply we have been trained to think this way.  How quick we are to judge, how critical we look at others.

For many, it's the way they have been trained to think for 20 years or more.  For many it's the way they have been trained to think their ENTIRE ADULT LIVES.  And for others that were raised in this work, THEIR ENTIRE LIVES !!!

I'm sorry, but you don't overcome and 'transform' your way of thinking overnight.

Repentance and humility are what is needed now.  And I can think of no better way to show humility than ADMITTING "I am unfit to lead".  

If you have been in a position of leadership in this work you HAVE led people astray.  If you continue, WITHOUT a renewed way of thinking -- WHICH WILL TAKE TIME -- you will CONTINUE to lead people astray.

As far as I can tell (don't slay me if I'm wrong here, I'm not familiar with the situation) Steve Irons has left an example to follow.  He left the assy, went elsewhere to fellowship and IN TIME God raised him up to a position of responsibility.

True repentance includes an addmission that I've proven myself unfit to lead.  And that should be demonstrated with more than lip service.

[Arthur]

Brian, I think you're right.  They were'nt like Nazi's.  Communists would be more like it.  LOL    j.k., sorry I couldn't resist  

[AaronC]

The leaders are not Nazis or communists.  What I was questioning in my post was their willingness to cling to error and "kick against the pricks" of their consciences.

We all did that--not just the leaders.  I heard David teach that "God did not become a man" and allowed Jeff to explain this away.  I am guilty.

One of the early teachings that I encountered in the Assembly was that lying for leadership and the saints is OK.  I allowed the Scriptures concering Rahab, the Hebrew Midwives, and David among the Phillistines to be twisted to facilitate sin.  I was wicked in so doing.

I saw Judy and David's brusies and didn't dig deeply.  I am guilty.

I heard George teach that there is a separate Glory (one with Jesus and one with The Father) and that the Overcomers got to be with The Father and that the lesser saints had to settle for Jesus.  GOD HAVE MERCY.  I didn't kick.  I am guilty.

I didn't much fight the Assembly's non-purgatory Purgatory.  (Non-Overcoming Christian may find themselves in "outer darkness" where there will be gnashing of teeth.)  I am guilty.

I was a brute to my wife.  I am guilty.

There are scores of areas in which Assembly leaders taught lies and covered for lies.  And yet none of this would have been possible without the complicity of the membership.

To continue with my (perhaps unfortunate) earlier post--If the Assembly leaders could be likened to Nazis whose alligience to their leader eclipsed their consciences, then we the flock were the German people who enabled the deception.

We are all guilty.  May God have mercy on us.

[Kimberley Tobin]

While I actually agree with much of what Brian posts, I disagree that there hasn't been actual blood shed, etc.  There have been suicides (I hold the assembly responsible for putting these poor sheep in the place of such desparation that the only solution for them was to end their lives.)  In addition, there has been physical, sexual, verbal and spiritual abuse that is just as heinous.  Perhaps these leaders weren't holding a gun to people's heads, but the spiritual abuse that perpetrated the above mentioned abuse was just as bad, albeit far more subtle, which is worse-the overt or the covert?