The Six Week Challange?

[Stacy Clark]

Brent,

May I ask why this article inferes that those of us who have not left the assembly are incapable of knowing what God wants for us? I agree with 98% of the things that have been brought up on these boards and I have been given a sense of liberty in speaking my mind to the LB's and infront of whom ever I wish. I also know that the "warning flags" are up now and I will be watching the goings on in this gathering much more closely and responsibly. However, I have been given a promise from God about staying. I hope, brother, that you will cease to belittle "us" for choosing to stay. Your article basically dictates to us that we don't know the will of God and that ,in your opinion, God's will for us is to take a vacation. I do not mean this as an attack or insult in any way, but I did think your Six Week Challange was patronizing.

Stacy

[Toni Fuller]

Stacy, I don't think Brent was trying to be patronizing but realistic.  I was involved for over 20 yrs. in fellowship and left in good standing.  I think that people do need to take a step back and look from the outside in.  My family has been gone for almost 2 yrs. and my husband & I still wrestle with guilt over things we were taught that we no longer believe.  For example: we were told and you felt the pressure of the idea there is no place at all like the assemblies, it's impossible to find God in other places like you could here.  This is just one example.  I have  many, many experiences myself & from watching what others have gone thru over the years, agree that it's going to be hard to see the kind of permanent changes that are needed for the long term.  The mindset that has permeated the assy's is one that is severe and not easily done away with.    

[Dale Yuzuki]

As one who was involved for 15 years in everything (and David K will attest to this fact   ) it took a long time after leaving to feel and think somewhat 'normally' again.

When I read Brent's 'six-week challenge' I know that it's a reasonable thing to consider and not condescending at all - because Brent is asking people involved in an entire system to take a short break from that system, and re-examine it in view of what is best for you.

What you call a 'vacation' may be just the opportunity for God to open your eyes to what was really going on with the lives of precious people for many years. I agree with Toni that from the 'outside', the thinking is very difficult to change, and from the 'inside' others (such as Brent) seem to be on the 'attack', when all they are are pointing out the need to reconsider your premises. It's not possible when still under the influence of others to reexamine these premises objectively from the 'inside'.

Thus the call for a six-week period of re-examination. It's something worthwhile to consider - you may begin to see some new things you didn't see before.

Dale

[editor]

Dear Stacy, Dale, Tony, Dave

The scales fell off my eyes on July 4th, 2000.    
It boils down to this,

It is a six week challenge, not a six week command, or burden.  That's why I called it a challenge as opposed to a dictate.  It's a challenge.  

If God intends to end the Geftakys ministry, which seems a reasonable assumption, then continuing to meet won't accomplish too much.

However, If God intends to raise up something new and beautiful from the ashes, how will taking six weeks off, for the purpose of seeking His face, undistracted by all the old habits, noise, inputs and training hinder His purpose?

You can't go wrong with this, unless you are afraid that the gathering will fall apart in your absence.  If you are praying, fasting and drawing near to Him, how is this going to make His church fall apart?

It won't.

Don't take the challenge if it worries you.

Brent

[Stacy Clark]

"So, I challenge every gathering that is seeking whether to continue meeting, or who should lead, or what the new dress-code should be, or whether one Geftakys doctrine or the other is correct,  to take six weeks off.  Get total separation and retreat from the dysfunctional Assembly culture.  Go apart, and seek the Lord.  Get counsel from other Christian leaders.  Visit other churches.  Walk on the beach with your family."

I can see your point, and for those who have not sought God's will in light of thier involvement, by all means seek Him. I suppose my perspective is that the entire gathering in Arcata is doing exactly what is quoted here. We have separated from the entire ministry, we are getting counselling from local pastors (they have been so gracious and loving and helpful) we are invited and inviting other christians to share ourselves with one another, there have been those among us who know the Lord is leading them elsewhere and for once we are rejoicing with them. We are experiencing liberty and hope like we haven't in the 12 years I have been involved. So, I felt like, "sheesh, I'm repenting as fast and furiously as I can, why and what must I do to please you." If a person doesn't know what God's leading is regarding their involvement, then I agree. Get yourself up to the mountain top, fast and seek God's direction. However, if a person is assured that the Lord still has them involved in the location he or she is in, then go for it, take responsibility for that and go from there.

[H]

I would like to suggest that those who take Brent up on his "six week challenge" spend part of those 6 weeks studying some of the material on this web site:
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/
There is so much good material there that I don't think anybody would be able to get through even half of it in 6 weeks, so I would particularly recommend the material on this page:
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/calvinism/L.asp
(note: I have not read everything on this site, there is simply too much material and I have too little time. I do not necessarily agree with every viewpoint expressed, and it is always good to "search the Scriptures to see if these things are so." Read with discernment.)
 
Another alternative would be to read the book "A Price for a People" by Tom Wells. It is available for $3.75 at Trinity Book Service:
http://www.trinitybookservice.org/16238.html
It is the best short and simple book on the death of Christ that I have come across so far. Even if you do not want to accept all of his conclusions, I don't think you can avoid being blessed by his discussions of the wonderful things that the Lord Jesus Christ has done for His people (at least not if you are a child of God and read it with an open mind).

Anyway, just thought I would chime in and make this suggestion. I think it would be a good idea even for those who don't take Brent up on his "six week challenge" or who have already left "the assemblies."

May the Lord richly bless ALL of you!

Love in Christ,
H

[editor]

Dear Stacy

Arcata is quite a bit ahead in many areas.  So is Champaign.  The six week challenge is for those who don't know what to do.  Also, you don't need to please me, I'm used to not pleasing people.  

I like what you said at the end of your post, "Get yourself up to the mountain top and seek God."

That's what it's all about.

Brent

[outdeep]

I remember having lunch with a brother in my new church.  I was shortly out of the Assembly and I was excited about ministering without the constraint and micromanagement of the Assembly leadership.  I don’t know what he saw in my tone of voice, my enthusiasm, my actions, but he said, “Maybe you need to wait a bit, enjoy the church and let yourself heal.”

I was insulted.  What did he mean?  I thought through everything.  I was ready to go.

Time vindicates things.  A couple of years ago, I was at a foster care class.  A teacher spoke of her divorce and in the course of the class mentioned that it took her six years before she could talk civilly with her ex-husband – the emotional baggage was so great.  I caught her after the meeting as I was interested.  That “six years” rang true because it took me about six years before I no longer felt I had to talk to people about this “strange group” I was in.  It was that long before I stopped feeling that outreach and prayer meetings and personal devotions had to feel just like what I experienced in the old group and that I was responsible to help see it happen.  It was that long before I gave myself permission to take up the hobby of writing for a publication that was not expressly Christian.  It was that long before I stopped feeling guilty whenever a pastor wanted to meet with me for fear he was going to “exhort” me about something I was doing wrong.

In my article “My Thoughts on an Assembly Afterlife”, I discuss the fact that though we may think through the Assembly issues on an intellectual level, there are things that are tied to our primal emotions and feelings.  We don’t shed this by staying in the pot.  Rather, by getting out and experiencing other perspectives on what “normal” is like.

All that to say, Brent is not being patronizing or commanding.  He is giving a challenge that means that he is giving a strong, educated suggestion that is optional for his hearers.  (The offense comes because in the Assembly a “challenge” literally meant “do this or else”.  Stacy, I am not trying to be patronizing, but your emotional reaction only demonstrates why a break is necessary.)

The bottom line is that it is up to you.  Personally, I think six weeks is too short.  I would recommend that people go to established churches to learn what “normal” is instead of staying within the splintered groups trying to sort out what is “good” and what is “bad” (with very little objective basis upon which to do that).  

But again, it’s up to you what you do and I would respect whatever decision you make.

[Arthur]

When I told Betty that I needed a vacation, I remember her telling me "What? Do you need a vacation from God?"
Words like that may still be hanging over people's heads who are still in the groups.  
After I left, I slept for six months (of course, getting up to go to work and such, but you get the idea).  I think everybody needs to get some good sleep and rest.  Its kinda like how in II Chronicles, the Israelites didn't allow the land to enjoy its Sabath rest for many years...well, there was a lot of catching up to do--to the tune of seventy years.   Heh, ok, just an anaology.

I think six weeks may not be long enough.  I've been out almost two years now and I'm still learning more about things that were wrong there.  And I was in the group for only five years.

On the other hand, despite what most people are saying, I think that the assembly added something precious and unique to the body of Christ.  I loved the worship times. I haven't found anything comparable.  I don't like the big bands in front.  You can put down the stones now.  Let's hear everyone lift up praise to God for how great he is and what great things he has done.  I like the old hymns of the faith sung in simplicity, not these new-fangled songs that sound just like what you hear on secular radio.  
I think it's great that all the believers come together to pray and study the Bible regularly.
I think it's great to go out and tell the good news to the lost and see them won for Christ.
I think it's great that not just one man does the job of preaching and being a shepherd, but that all are encouraged to read their Bibles, mature in the Lord, and learn to care for one another.  

     I have found in many churches, that there is a very low expectation for what it means to be a Christian.  People who have been Christians for years still do not know that Luke follows Mark.  This is a shame!  This is not what I read in the Bible that at Christian should be.  What happened to "If you continue in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."  In how many churches do you see that people are not set free?  How many do you see that are on the other extreme of the assembly in that they do not exercise church discipline at all, and many members are engaging in sexual immorality, among other things?
If Christians were doing what they should have been doing and reading the Bible, I think that I, as a young man growing up in a Christian home and in a Christian church, would have been instructed more properly in the faith, so that I wouldn't have to turn to a group like the assembly for answers to basic spiritual questions.  No!  I can't say that other places of fellowship are all that peachy either.

     But I must say that I have found something very dear in individual Christians that I have met from a variety of churches and all walks of life.  And that is Christ in them that I see.  It, or He rather, is a most wondrous and beautiful thing.  To see humility, mercy, kindness, goodwill, joy, love and other such things in this wretched world of hate, cruelty and deceit, is like seeing a diamond among coal, or a rainbow after a storm.  

As for other churches, I can't say that the other places that I've been involved with, both before and after the assembly have been soo much deeper in love and more profound in spiritual maturity than the assembly.  I am glad for them, but I was also glad for what the assembly had to offer, minus the leaven of George of course.  No question about it, there are some serious doctrinal errors and cult-like problems there, but that's not all that I remember about the place.  There were so many good things too.  Do you remember the good times that you had with your friends there?   The sweet times of fellowship, sharing about the Lord? Why forget about the good things, or throw them out with the bad?

That's my take.

[outdeep]

Just a side comment.  One reason why it seems like there is a low expectation for Christianity in mainline churches is the fact that they aproach ministry differently.

The Assembly was a magnet for the ultra-committed and idealistic.  Most people, if they didn't have an ideal cause, would not submit themselves to sitting on metal folding chairs all day on Sunday.  If you weren't up to the full weeks commitment (of meetings and personal disciplines), you generally didn't join the Assembly in the first place.

Mainline churches, on the other hand, have to work with the hand that is dealt them.  They get everything from the pew sitters to the radical missionaries and everything in between.

The issue is not that mainline churches don't have a high expectation.  Its just that they don't tend to discomfort those who don't measure up.  They allow for people to make personal choices in balancing their committment to church activities, family, work, and recreation.

[Arthur]

Yes Dave.  That's right and a good way of putting it.  That freedom of choice was and is appreciated.  It was wrong for us, me, to at times, not always, wonder at why people weren't getting it and expect them to see it as I did.  I was idealistic, I confess it.  But is that so bad?   Criticizing others was, yes.  But to hold ideals, I don't think so.
I guess most of our personalities had that zealous or idealistic bent in the first place.  Perhaps that is why I enjoyed being with people in the assembly so much.  I found comaraderie and people who thought the same way that I did.  It was so cool!  My dad and I were really into playing chess at one point, and then we found a chess club in the city near where we lived.  How cool was that?!  Same thing for me with the assembly.  And this was like the ultimate because it dealt with the most important issue in life--God and eternity. It was like a dream come true to be with sincere, God-following believers that did everything they did "because the Bible says right here." Really sucks that there was that leaven.  

I think that this is what it boils down to.
Having hopes and dreams and aspiring for the best isn't evil.  George's leaven was.  No need to stop dreaming because of one bad nightmare.  How about we just leave George's leaven behind, learn from it, and keep on hoping and reaching higher?
And now we've learned not to be so insistent on how we see it, but to love and be understanding, since we know a little bit about being wronged by over-zealous men.  
But I still have my ideals...somewhere..I think they're surfacing again.    I hope I still have a dream or two left.

[Kimberley Tobin]

I like how Dave put it.  It isn't about having cookie cutter christians.  It doesn't all have to look one way.  We are all different (and by the way-God created us that way-different.)

And Arthur, I happen to like the band thing going on up at the front.  I HATED the assembly accapella, no harmony, no musical instruments, hymn kinda thing......but that's just it.  We all have different kinds of personalities.  We like different kinds of music.  It doesn't make "hymns" bad or "choruses" bad either.  It is simply........preference.  So go to a church (and there are different kinds of churches out there) that fits your "personality type".  

When my husband and I were looking for a church, one weekend we went to a babtist church.  Though they had musical instrument accompaniment (more like orchestra) it was your fundamental hymn style (probably right up your alley, Arthur.)  It didn't appeal to me (liked the preaching though.)  We visited an EV Free church the following weekend, which had the Chorus style band  "going on up front" kind of worhsip and I was in my element.  

I believe the difference is that different music does something in your soul.  Hymns don't do anything for me.  I always had a hard time enjoying them.  But the music we sing in our worship service now, which I really enjoy, it in turn causes me to worship God in a way I never felt with the assembly.  It's better felt than telt, so to speak.  Hope this helps.

[Arthur]

You know that is so funny.  I can see what you're saying, and you're not the only one who has told me that.  And I believe you guys.  For me it was totatlly different.  I was in my element when I experienced the assembly-form of worship.  For me it was like "This is it!!"  And I can tell you why it does it for me.  Having no musical accompaniment, only the human voice, allowed me to focus on the powerful and thoughful words of the hymn.  And singing only from our voices satisifies my conscience as being the pure form in which to convey my spirit's praise to God.  It is, to me, a stark contrast to the rockish (and I see it as worldly) kind of church music of this age. I find singing a simple song with my voice and thinking about the words completely fullfilling.
Interesting huh?  Well, my mind is not made up on what to make of this new form of worship that seems to have arisen in the 70's.  I, personally, don't want to worship that way.  I will say this though, I totally dig Kieth Green!    But he was one of kind.  I know of no other like him in the Christian music industry.  Seems like most are out for the money and fame.    For him, it was all about Jesus.  Speaking about guys who were ideal, he was about the most fanatical person I've ever heard about.  

[Ken Fuller]

I have to agree that much music today is Worldly.

A theme I'm starting to get from this board is that ANYTHING is alright, as long as it conflicts with assembly teaching.  There IS a carnality to Christianity today, and there is MUCH deceit and wickedness in Christianity -- EVEN places OUTSIDE OF GEORGE'S MINISTRY  (you can almost hear the <GASP>)

In fact, while I'm on my soapbox I'll mention -- not EVERY BODY that has left the "lodge" has left because of gg's teaching and the "assembly way".  There ARE people that are carnal christians, and left for issues they would have WHEREVER they went (again, a loud, silient <GASP>).  And yes, some are posting on this board now as "authorities in sprituality" -- okay NOW I crossed the line ....

BUT -- in light of music -- just because SOME is worldly does NOT mean there hasn't been a Godly spiritual song written since 1850 -- there ARE good worship hymns that are written in our day and age.

[editor]

Hi Ken

If you are getting a theme that says, "Anything is alright as long as it conflicts with the Assembly," then I must say that we are in grave danger.

As for me personally, I want people to be delivered from bondage, and to walk in true liberty.  That is at odds with the Assembly.

However, I don't believe for one second that everything and anything is alright.  I don't think others do either, but if they do, myself and others will have some gentle words of correction for them.

God is true and every man a liar.

Brent