The Six Week Challange?

[Eulaha L. Long]

Hello folks

I took a two year break from "church" of any kind.  I needed time to heal, and to figure out what true Christianity is all about.  I visited several different churches, and I spent time with other believers outside of church.

I have not been to "church" in over a year now, and now I feel like it is time for me to look for a gathering to fellowship with.

[outdeep]

J. Vernon McGee once said that when Satan fell from heaven, he landed in the choir loft.  Therefore, I tread lightly when it comes to a discussion of worship styles.

I am not exactly sure what people mean when they say, “that music is worldly”.  Unless an angel whispered the tune in someone’s ear, all songs were derived by some physical means and find its origin in an author who lives in this world and was influence by his cultural tastes in rhythm and style.  Or does the term mean that worldly music seems to support Satan’s administration more than Christ?  If so, I am not always sure how to tell the difference between this song sung in church and that one.

Music is a neutral medium.  It is used to convey thoughts and emotions.

The question of whether a worship song is good enough depends on whether or not it is accomplishing its purpose.

Most people who tend to be thinkers (and less feelers) gravitate towards some of the classic hymns because the thrust of hymns is to put clear affirmations of God’s truths to music.  I remember one time at a Men’s retreat sitting in the chapel and thinking line by line through Charles Wesley’s “And Can It Be That I Should Gain”.   I probably spent over an hour on that hymn mulling over each phrase in my mind.  Those who enjoy doctrinal truths about God codified in expressive language enjoy hymns for that reasons.  It causes them to think higher thoughts about God.

Those who enjoy the emotional uplift tend towards some of the more contemporary choruses.  If you look at the words of the very popular “Shout To the Lord”, the words really don’t say much of real depth.  But the emotional crescendos of the song helps one lift up their hands and feel as if their very inner being is being poured out before a loving God.  To them, worship is the inner experience of pouring out their emotions to God.

Which is right?  Maybe both.  It seems that both can find their justification in the command to love God with our heart, souls, and mind.  In times of meditation, use a meditative hymn.  In times of delight, strike up the band and sing out a celebration.

The question isn’t “is this song right” or “is this song wrong”.  It is “what is this song trying to accomplish?”   And is the thing it is trying to accomplish a worthy goal?

When you try and cast a song as “worldly” or not “worldly”, you are really not talking about the song but whether or not the purpose of the song is a worthy endeavor.  Those who don’t like the doctrinal hymns are saying that worship should be a matter of emotion and heart.  Those who don’t like simple choruses think that worship should engage the mind.  

That is really where the discussion lies.

[d3z]

When you try and cast a song as “worldly” or not “worldly”, you are really not talking about the song but whether or not the purpose of the song is a worthy endeavor.  Those who don’t like the doctrinal hymns are saying that worship should be a matter of emotion and heart.  Those who don’t like simple choruses think that worship should engage the mind.

The music we sing many of the old hymns to has many and diverse origins, from music written for the hymn, to old bar tunes, and patriotic songs.  What is contemporary today will be old fasion later.

This happens with all music.  I have found many good contemporary worship songs, and many that just aren't very good.  With older music, the good stuff remains, and the no-so-good stuff just dies away.  Many of the popular songs from even ten years ago seem to have gone, but some of the real good ones remain.

I know some people feel its sacreligious to put old hymns to contemporary music. However, this is really no different than where many of the hymns came from in the first place.

Dave Brown

[Arthur]

I think that one can make a distinction and say, "This is music is good.   This music is bad."  
Think of the human voice.  A person can say the same words in all manner of different tones.  You or I or anyone else can infer what that person is meaning based not upon the words, but upon the way in which it is said.  
Music is very similar.  A person's voice, by dictionary definition, is a musical instrument. The words that he speaks, as well as the manner in which he presents it, come from his heart.  Some could be good, some could be bad.  It is usually easy to discern which.  Would you say that heavy metal music is one of those pure, good, and noble things that we are to think upon?

I think of music like words.  Some comes from a pure heart regenerated by the Holy Spirit.  Some do not.  A lot of the "Christian" artists today are living immoral lives, and what comes from them is sensual and meant to appeal not to our spirits but to our carnal nature  They are written not for the glory of God but for money and fame.  

I think that a person can hear a melody and say whether it is pleasing or not.  Obviously, we can tell the difference between a vacumn cleaner and a violin.  One produces noise the other produces beautiful music.  What about an electric guitar?  Well, it produces both.  lol.. Depending on who plays it, as I'd say is the case with most instruments.  

Jesus rescued us from this present evil age. That's huge! It means a lot!  We've been translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.  It's a whole different culture.  I John 2 defines what the world is.  Isn't it interesting?  The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, the boastful pride of life....all these things are what comes natural to us.  Jesus said that the flesh profits nothing but the spirit gives life.  I'd say that worldly music, then, is that which excites and fullfills the lust of the flesh rather than that which pleases the spirit of Christ.  Am I wrong?  Further I'd say that worldy music is any music that "goes with the flow" of the prevailing music of the world.  Hence the term "wordly music"--i.e. it sounds just like the music of the world.  The redeemed sing a different song, I would dare to argue.  Things are totally different for us now then they were before we got saved, which was the way of the world, as it says in Eph 2.  
   
The worshipers that the Father seeks are those that worship him in spirit and in truth.  I may be wrong, but the way I see this it, "in spirit and in truth" seems to be saying that it's not "in the flesh and in vain repetition".  I see worshiping God in spirit and in truth as being a simple song that meditates on the truth of the scripture sung with all our heart in praise towards God, not a contemporary song that is modeled after the prevailing songs of the world that gets my emotions stirred up and just says the same thing over and over again - a message that isn't in the Bible, and may even be in error - a message that comes not from the spirit of God but from the darkness of man's heart.  

I do not believe that all contemporary songs are bad.  Like I said, I really like Kieth Green's songs, but that is because I read his biography and know that he really did have a heart that loved God.  And I think you can tell in his songs.  They are not crude or crass (a couple some may consider to be borderline).  In each one the message is clear and well-thought out.  You can actually hear each word that he is saying, and it is praiseworthy.
I think that we can say, "This music is good and I'll keep it and learn it.  This music is bad and I don't want to sing it." We keep the good and discard the bad.  There are a few good contemporary songs out there.
But as far as big bands during a worship time with other believers--it is not needed, it is distracting and it is an unnecessary complexity, imho  I probably wouldn't mind an acoustic guitar, but by far I prefer the simplicty of the instrument that God gave us, not made with hands, and that is the human voice--reverberating the notes of praise from that which was also not made from human hands - the heart.  

Arthur

[aguyoutthere]

ok-this is just about the six week challenge:
i just read this topic, and i think i understand how some of the people felt about the challenge feeling patronizing.  I also think that what Brent may not have taken into account while writing the article is that to take six weeks off of assembly life which i meant to mean no meetings, no contact with assembliers(for lack of a better word) also requires seeking God's will.  I believe that it is possible to see what is wrong without being so "drastic(sp?)"in action.  Certainly God can reveal this to someone while they stay in fellowship, and that could be what he wants for them.  I suppsose what i've really seen in this site is that the phrases "best for you" and "what you need to do" are used more than "what God wants."  This whole post is kinda disorganized and incomplete, but please somebody answer so i canexplain what I'm trying to say.

[Dale Yuzuki]

Hi 'aguy', I hope you are doing well 'outthere'.

It may sound like a radical step to take 'six weeks off' of assembly life, but it is the experience of many former 'assembliers' that it takes a long time to get a proper perspective after many years of serious 'assembly commitment'. One becomes accustomed to hearing ministry given with subtle inferences as 'from the Lord', when all it is is manipulation. It is when the assembly context is removed that there is some space for God to reveal something more.

One can simply reply 'what God wants is for the assembliers to assemble', but it's is missing the point regarding what is needed now. The six-week challenge struck a chord with me as I personally know how long a time it took for me to begin to start thinking properly. I know that what you are hearing sounds like heresy (not to meet with other assembliers, not to have meetings several times per week), but this kind of action really isn't drastic, although it seems that way.

A few members of the WLA group are now contacting me about which church etc. I'm in, which I'm reluctant to say as I feel that what they need first is a six-week challenge of their own. Brent's article put it very well, not patronizing or commanding, but simply challenging those who are coming out of a corrupted system to have some time to see things as they truly are. It isn't a simple nor easy process, it takes time and effort, and it is well worth it.

[editor]

Hello everyone

I also think that what Brent may not have taken into account while writing the article is that to take six weeks off of assembly life which i meant to mean no meetings, no contact with assembliers(for lack of a better word) also requires seeking God's will.

I thought it was pretty clear in the article that the whole purpose for taking six weeks off was to seek God's will.  Did I make a typo?  Have I been hallucinating?

Seriously, I thought that idea was all over the article.  Why do I have such a hard time communicating simple ideas?

brent

[4Him]

Hey,
aguyoutthere dude,
You said...

ok-this is just about the six week challenge:
...
I believe that it is possible to see what is wrong without being so "drastic(sp?)"in action.  Certainly God can reveal this to someone while they stay in fellowship...

You definitely don't get it.  Like my friend Brent said, all of these evils and the general abusiveness of the assemblies was declared from outside the assembly, not from people still in.  There is only denial and "why can't we all get along" within.  As long as you are in you are inside a structure which locks out the true freedom and clarity that is possible in Christ.  It is only outside where you will begin to appreciate this liberty.

Take the plunge.  I have.

[aguyoutthere]

brent-
yes, you did make it clear that the idea was to take six weeks off TO take God's will, but it just seemed like it was not a spiritual issue to you to decide on whether this was a good idea or not in individual circumstances.  A big part of being in God's will, which I have assumed is important to you, is to be where God wants you to be.  If God does still want to do something in the assemblies, he may want to do it now, when people realize that they know nothing as they ought and are totally open to what GOD wants.  To simply decide to take six weeks off to see if God wants you to take more time off seems to me to be saying that you can make God's decisions for him, and that he is so unable to tell you his will wherever you are.  This is how I look at it, but i also believe that if God tells you to leave, that you should immediately, but make sure you ask Him before you leave the place he has put you.

[outdeep]

Perhaps you can help me understand how God communicates to you.  I am not one who has receive many (if any) direct revelations from God.  Here are some methods I have tried to discern God's will.
1.  Try to interpret impresions and inner feelings I have received.  (Though this has often proven to be an unreliable method as I felt deep in my Spirit one day that the Dodgers were going to win but they ended up losing).
2.  Read a verse in my daily Bible reading and if it somehow relates to my circumstances, assume God has spoken (like the sister who decided to move across country because God said to Moses "Go!")
3.  Ask a leading brother.
4.  Walk about my known responsibilities during the day and trust that God's Providencial hand will lead me in ways that I may not even understand or realize.
5.  Make a decision based upon objective criteria - Is it Scriptural?  Is it practical?  Is this the most effective way to do what I am trying to accomplish?  Do I enjoy it?  (Obviously there is a priority of thought.  Scriptural takes precedence over enjoyment but if all things are equal, I would do what I enjoy).  Read, think, pray, discuss, visit other churches, make comparisons so you can make an educated decision.

If you are in camp 1 and 2, you probably have a more direct pipeline to God than I do and I would like to understand more about that.  3 doesn't seem to be a great option right now.   I tend to live in camp 4 and 5.

For that reason (5 especially), Brent's suggestionis a good one.  Take some time to get the tools you need to look at things objectively.  Do some comparison shopping, see what is out there, seek God's wisdom and make an educated, adult decision.

-Dave

P.S.  By the way, Brent's challange is just that - a challenge.  It is not a command.  You Assembly people still respond to challenges in a way that you think if you don't respond or if you make the wrong decision, you are going to get a consequence or lose out on divine favor (or both).

[Margaret]

Dave--

I am reminded of a book you recommended to us, Decision Making and the Will of God, by Garry Friesen.  It is tremendously helpful in this area.  How about an article on this topic?  Looking for a promise to indicate God's will for everything is a practice that has a binding effect on people.  After all, if I got a promise for coming into fellowship, for George's journeys, for being made a leading brother, how can I then say I might have been wrong?  It prevents us from evaluating in light of the whole teaching of Scripture regarding both past and present decisions.

Margaret  

[editor]

Suzie and I were reading in 2 Kings 2:23 this afternoon and It seemed like God was speaking to us:

The he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out of the city and mocked him and said to him, "Go up you bald head; go up, you bald head!"  When he looked behind him, and saw them, he cursed them in the name of The Lord.  Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty two lads of their number.

We considered praying for bears to attack current members of the Assembly who are mocking the website.  

Is this Biblical?

Brent

Take Six Weeks Off!  Don't go Camping.....

[karensanford]

Brent!!  I know just what you mean.

Today I read this: "Watch out for those dogs...those mutilators of the flesh" (Phil 3:2).

I knew that the Lord was speaking to me, so I immediately drove Luke and Abby to the pound so that they could mutiliate someone else's flesh, not MINE.  

These deserve a new thread: funny sounding scriptures.  

[Toni Fuller]

I'm curious?  Why is everyone upset about Brent's suggestion?  It's healthy to take time at different points in your life and re-evaluate what, why etc. of what you're doing with your life.  Sometimes if you come out of the forest, you can really get a new perspective.  

[aguyoutthere]

Has anyone here read the book"Jesus Freaks"?