Another Abused Wife Comes Out of the Closet

[Nate Dogg]

Yeah, what is it about?

  peace and love,

         Nate

[editor]

Dear Chuck, John and Rachel

I have to agree with Chuck on this one.  My kids were born in the living room, 2 of em have never seen an MD, the other 3 haven't more than once or twice.

Suzie had midwives for all pregnancies, no MD..

I do not abuse her.  Rachel, I know you very well, and I know you don't mean exactly what your post seemed to say, but I am saying this just to make sure that people do not misunderstand your position, based on your words, which perhaps were not carefully chosen.

I am with Chuck on this one.

Brent

[karensanford]

I would never go a couple of weeks into a pregnancy without seeing the chiropractor!!

Segue...

I wore a brown shirt yesterday.  

[karensanford]

I was going to add this after re-reading what Rachel wrote.

Living here in hippie-mecca, I know a lot of midwives and natural medicine types in general.  Shoot, my in-laws are still hippies.  I have asked several of them, esp. the midwives, about home birthing and "natural" (read: non-traditional) pregnancy care.  Every one of them has stressed that they feel that first and foremost the woman should choose the method that she is most comfortable with so that she might have the best success.  If she feels the most comfortable in the hospital, she should be in the hospital.  One of them stated to me just last week that she felt that if a woman was really worried and stressed about having her baby at home, she was not as likely to have the most successful pregnancy that she could, because of her stress.  

So....I was thinking that Rachel may have been referring to women who WANT to go to the doctor, and those husbands who will not "allow" it.  Certainly if a woman, or any other adult, wishes to see a doctor, they should be free to do so.

If they don't want to, more power to 'em.

PS-I will vouch for the home-birthed, non-MD'ed Tr0ckman children as five of the most delightful, healthy, and well-adjusted children I have ever known.  
                       **Can I get some overcomer points for this?**

[Rachel]

Ok. to clear this up.  I meant lack of medical attention.  Midwife, Nurse Practitioner, any of the above would constitute fine medical attention.  Also, I meant that the lack of medical care in combination with other "red flag" warnings of abusive behavior.  If you have a personal philosophy on medical care that would not have you going to a doctor regularily and both spouses agree, fine.  I meant that it is wrong to, as a pregnant woman, be prevented from medical care because the husband thinks it is not a priority, financially or otherwise.  My own parents had two of their three kids at home, I think home birth can be a wonderful way to have your kids.  I think Mid-wives are great.  I also think that if a woman is being cared for and cherished by her husband, this whole medical issue will be moot.  He will die making sure she is ok.  I meant that the lack of medical care in combination with other abusive behavior.

[TGarisek]

Ok, this isn't sticking with the abuse topic but I've always wondered why anyone, in this day and age, would risk having a child at home. I question the ability of anyone to sanitize a home environment. And, I don't think the standard household has emergency medical equipment available in case of complications. I am not on "Little House on the Prairie" and I don't have an aversion to most medical professionals.

[Arthur]

There's a family I know that has nine children.  The first three were born in a hospital. The next one or two were born on the grade (the highway mountain pass on the way to the hospital).  The next ones were born at home  I see that as a good reason.

Another one:  I don't really trust doctors.  I've heard a statistic that, while the average life expectancy of americans is around 70 years old, the average life expecatancy of medical doctors is 58.  
And their so-called science (knowledge)--changes every year.  Breast feed, no don't breast-feed, ok breast-feed again.  Lay baby on back, no lay baby on stomach, no lay baby on back again. etc.

Another one (more directed to the brown shirts): If the government wants to have a say in how to catch crooks.  I say, "Ok.".  If the governement wants to have a say in how to defend the nation, I say "Ok."  But if the governments to have a say in how I raise my own child.  I say "Nuh uh."  

[Mrs. Arthur]

And their so-called science (knowledge)--changes every year.  Breast feed, no don't breast-feed, ok breast-feed again.  Lay baby on back, no lay baby on stomach, no lay baby on back again. etc.

Another one (more directed to the brown shirts): If the government wants to have a say in how to catch crooks.  I say, "Ok.".  If the governement wants to have a say in how to defend the nation, I say "Ok."  But if the governments to have a say in how I raise my own child.  I say "Nuh uh."  

     Can you tell that we have just had a baby?  It seems that there are so many "well intentioned" individuals out there and it seems that when you have a baby they come out of the woodwork!  By the time our baby was a week old I felt like telling all those "well intentioned" individuals that they could just go and jump off a bridge.
     I'm beginning to wonder what happened to the "listen to your mother" concept.  I mean people have been having babies for centuries - don't you think that the generation before has ANYTHING good to say?  Mankind would survive if we all lived in log cabins in the Great White North and had no govt., no lawyers, no grocery stores, no MDs, etc. (but then again a lot of us would be dead, but hey that's just a side note  ).
     Also - sometimes I think people don't really have much of a choice when it comes to where they have their babies.  Like Arthur said about the family with nine kids - they didn't have much of a choice where they had their kids - they just came SO fast that there wasn't time to call a midwife - go to a hospital - or anything.  

[Rachel]

Ok,
Again, maybe if I give you a little background or example of what I am talking about people will better understand me.

The woman who has had 7 or 8 kids and she is now having in her late forties and is having one miscarriage after another, hemoraging with each one to the point that she is having to go to the hospital.  The doctor tells her and her husband that her body is just worn out and can't handle these pregnancies any more and if she keeps miscarrying and hemoraging like that she may die.  The options: use birth control or abstain from sex, there is nothing medically they can do to prevent these early miscarriages.  Her husband doesn't believe in birth control, and doesn't want to have to go without sex, so.... they just role the dice and keep on going and now just stay away from the doctor.  

So you all decide where the line is.....

[Arthur]

Sorry Rachel, my post wasn't intended as a negative response to your posts.  You made it clear from your followup post what you meant to say, and I totally agree that if a woman wants medical care for her pregnancy, she should get it, and her husband should by any and all means see to it that she gets the proper care.  I was just speaking my mind on the general issue.  And I should qualify what I said by saying that our stay in the hospital had some plusses to it.  Some of the nurses were very helpful and kind to us.  It was overall a good experience.  It was a couple things that happened later that were somewhat unpleasant--namely dealing with a particular home health nurse...

[Susan McCarthy]

Dear Chuck,

Thanks for your thoughtful analysis on this subject.  I think you made some very important points.  From my standpoint, Judy and Rachel's stories point to blatant cover-up of obvious and serious sins.  The witnesses and participants are being called into account as they should be.

Several brothers from the SB Assembly called me this past week to apologize because they said they didn't notice anything was wrong while Tom and I were in fellowship. (i.e., they were unaware of the physical abuse).   And my reply was gracious to them, because I suffered in silence while examining myself (as I was instructed to via Betty's counsel), and I did not specifically go to them with my complaints- they didn't know the dynamics in my home and did not witness what was going on.  I can honestly say that I have no hard feelings toward any of them personally.  

But, had they seen my bruises and confronted Tom, I am not confident that the outcome would have been positive for me or our marriage for the following reasons:

1.  I may have been blamed by the brothers and/or Tom for being a bad wife and deserving to be harshly disciplined.    It is one thing to disagree with your spouse about your relationship patterns; quite another thing to let the dirty laundry out of the closet and risk being ganged up on by people who spoke as God's authority over you and your family.

2.  The universal prescription for these types of personal problems was more Bible reading, shallow admonitions to just trust the Lord and to obey the advice of the leaders (no matter that some of them advising had unhealthy marriages and disfunctional situations themselves- or on the childrearing issues- they weren't even married and didn't even have their own kids! - But of course, they were authorities on the subject because they had been trained by George and Betty as their "surrogate children"), etc.

3.  "Brother, get your home in order or you can't be a doorkeeper... "  Throughout the years I heard leading brothers brag about how they had put their wives in their places, or they were condenscending when they spoke of the women, "Oh, you know, sisters are more emotional and more easily deceived.... remember Eve.  You've got to be strong and lay down the law."  and,

"Sister, you need to be completely obedient   Your resistance shows a rebellious spirit.  When you married, you gave up that right to  (fill in the blank)."

3.  The prohibition against seeing psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health counselors outside the fellowship not only prevented common sense and legal rights from entering the picture, but the hurting couple was left to their own attempts to fix the problem (with the counsel of the leadership prescribing the solution).

4.  The code of silence makes it unsafe for both men and women to tell the truth.  All churches and organizations have this dilemma (it is human nature to avoid embarassment and to downplay our wrong actions), but the way people are confronted in the assembly made it especially hard to "come clean."  Would you be kicked out?  Publically ostracized?  Have privileges taken away?  Lose your chance to move up the leadership ladder?  Have to endure more lectures about how bad a Christian you were, how you weren't overcoming, how you weren't capable of making decisions for yourself, etc.?  And if you were a wife, would you have to do your "consequences" and your husbands if he told you to, even if he was in the wrong?  
No wonder both men and women were afraid to speak up;
the culture of the assembly propogated this insidious problem.

The issue of how far to get involved in one another's lives, especially when relationships seem to exhibit unhealthy symptoms, is a complex and difficult one.  We could start by "speaking the truth in love" and there are many other Bible verses that would give us wisdom and boundaries to follow.  

What is clear is that the leadership's practice of playing Holy Spirit in other's lives, is in direct opposition to the way Jesus exposed and treated sins.  If the only prayer and effort made on my behalf was to exhort me to conform to the "assembly's standard", I do not feel individually respected, "heard" or for that matter, loved.

One of the greatest opportunities we have through this website is to be reconciled to one another and to Christ.  It takes tremendous courage and humility to avoid the prescribing judgments so characteristic of Christian groups and give room for the real Holy Spirit to move, correct, and heal in the individual's life.

[Rudy]

Amy Grant - Heart in Motion

Ask Me

I see her as a little girl hiding in her room
She takes another bath and she sprays her momma's perfume
To try and wipe away the scent he left behind
But it haunts her mind

You see she's just his little rag, nothing more than just a waif
And he's mopping up his need, she is tired and afraid
Maybe she'll find a way through these awful years to disappear

Ask me if I think there's a God up in the heaven
Where did He go in the middle of her shame?
Ask me if I think there's a God up in the heavens
I see no mercy and no one down here is naming names
Nobody's naming names

Now she's looking in the mirror at a lovely woman face
No more frightened little girl, like she's gone without a trace
Still she leaves the light burning in the hall
It's hard to sleep at all

Till she crawls up in her bed acting quiet as a mouse
Deep inside she's listening for a creaking in the house
But no one's left to harm her, she's finally safe and sound
There's a peace she has found

Ask her how she knows there's a God up in the heaven
Where did He go in the middle of her shame?
Ask her how she knows there's a God up in the heavens
She said His mercy is bringing her life again

She's coming to life again
He's in the middle of her pain
In the middle of her shame
Mercy brings life
He's in the middle
Mercy in the middle

[Robb]

Susan, Rachel, Others who have survived this and are gracious enough to come foward to tell their stories:

Thanks for your accounts.  I appreciate the honesty.

I, as a husband and a father, am sickened to death to hear of this kind of behavior.  It makes those of us men who actually try to to the best we can for and with our wives and children look bad, to put it mildly.

the quote from Mr. Malone that says "Statistics show that MOST women who get hit mouth off to men in ways that, if men did it to one another, they would realize it's going to come to blows." shows that he has little regard for women and how important they are in our lives.  I believe that God created each one of us in a wonderful way to fill a special place in his kingdom,  and if we really took the time to look and see the ways in which our spouses and children are "fearfully and wonderfully made", we might have less of the "superior" attitude that Mr. Malone seems to be so willing to spout off about.  Your attitude, Mr. Malone, warrents no respect in my book.

God has been wonderfully gracious to have put men in my life who, while I was growing up, modeled behavior towards their wives and children that was above reproach - first and formost that being my father, and I thank God for my parents who, to this day, show love and respect for each other, their children, and grandchildren.

No man has the right to push, shove, slap, hit, grab, bruise, pull, pick up and move, punch inademant objects in order to intimidate, scream at, call obcenities, or physically force a woman to do anything.  They have no right to dismiss you, humiliate you, threaten ...  Nothing the wife could do, should justify any of the above behavior, including being mouthy or nagging, or "not submitting".

Rachel, I totally agree with you.  I have to say that, although it seems that it happens less often, the opposite can also happen as well.  Please don't get me wrong - I'm not talking about a woman being just "mouthy" or "nagging" - I'm talking about the hitting, humiliation, slapping, hitting, cutting, etc., that so tipifys abuse.  Those of you that know me know that I will never condone any kind of abusive behavior at all, and, in fact, do my best, with God's help, to treat my wife and children with dignity, courtesy, and the utmost of respect - but I also have seen how the abuse described by Rachel but carried out by a woman can have a devestating effect on the man in the relationship, especially if he is trying to be the best husband and father God would want him to be.

Once again, those of you have shared, thanks for recofirming for me the way I never want to become towards my wife and kids and encouraging me to be a blessing to my family.  

[Oscar]

Robb,

John Malone was on this BB for a couple of months at the beginning.  He demeaned, insulted and raged at just about everyone that would communicated with him.  

Thankfully, after it reached the point where no one would engage him in debate, he took his cookies and went home.

Thomas Maddux

[Robb]

Tom -

Thanks for the update.  I appreciate it, and apologize if I've said something out of line.  I'll keep more close watch on what happens to the best of my ability.