Biased

[retread]

Anyway, Why don't you take six weeks off of this site, it may do you some good.

Brent:

It sounds like some are beginning to squirm.  Don't worry, this is common when sin is exposed (people don't like having their sins brought to the light).  It is sort of like turning on the light in a room with cockroaches in it, they don’t like to be exposed and they immediately try to conceal themselves.
 
Thanks for not taking time off from the work you have done in exposing the truth being the Geftakys system, so that God's people could be delivered from bondage.  Thanks for being bold, and standing for what is right even in the voice of criticism.

[Curious]

1) No one knows in advance (except the Lord)who will start the worship, any brother may lead the worship out (not just deacons or elders,)
2) No one knows in advance who will pray, what songs will be given during worship (sisters and brothers involved here)
3) No one knows in advance who will end the time of worship and partake of the Lord's Supper. Again, not necessarily deacons or elders do this either.
4) No one knows in advance who will share and what will be shared during the morning ministry.  


Well, I don't know what it's like in too many other assemblies but I can share my perceptions of how things were done in my locality.
1) It was always a LB who stood up to start worship and almost always with a "call to worship" from the word.  It was usually the same two brothers praying at the beginning and leading out the "opening hymns"
2&3)This is partly true...but if some unenlightened brother or sister requested a hymn not found in the "worship" section of the hymnal it was put on hold or we read one verse etc...
And it was a very uncomfortable feeling.  Another aspect of this is,I can't tell you how many times I held back in worship to let the Spirit lead so that others (like my kids who are all baptized and able to participate) could enter in...only to have a LB(and in the 14 years I've been here it's ALWAYS been the LB's who start, stop and regulate the flow of every meeting) who couldn't tolerate a minutes silence or "lag" in the worship shut things down...to me this was not Spirit led worship...it was keeping to the timetable and schedule.
4)This is partly true too...but in my locality...again, it was hard for certain brothers to sit on their hands for a minute and not get up...so invariably for months on end the same two or three brothers would stand to speak...and often I would go away with the thought..."What did they say?"  

There are other things I could add but as it is I've probably said enough...and others have made similar points I would make,about the money...if you seriously think that GG and others could tell you where all the money has gone over the course of 30 years....then they have better memories than most 75 year olds I know...

Gues...who are you? and why do you sling accusations while hiding behind a pen-name???  Come into the light and join us in  open and honest communication...that leaves room for a difference of opinion.  I may not agree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it...for further details see the Constitution and Bill of Rights!

[Andrea Denner]

Dear Gues,
This is coming from someone still semi-in.  (meaning that we disassociated from the ministry at the end of Dec. and are doing things a whole lot differently, but still considering exactly what God wants for our family).  I had a HUGE post written about the liturgy that we have practiced.
I will just give a little here.

9:20  saints are seated, some reading their Bibles
9:30  worship starts with a brother giving a word on worship
Prayers and songs commence.  Perhaps the prayers and songs are spirit led, but I must say that I have seen people with written out prayers more than once.  {I'll put a little note in here addressing what Ken said....have you ever heard George stop worship because 1. Not enough sisters praying  2. singing is too fast or too slow or not loud enough  3.  George singing ahead of everyone else  ?  I have heard all of the above.  IMO this is not spirit led}  Anyway, worship goes until about 10:30 to which a brother says "Saints, may we all be seated?"
10:30 Lord's supper.  Brother gives a word on the Lord's supper usually ending with I Cor. 11.  Bread and cup passed with songs (There is a Fountain,  etc.)  
10:45  Next comes 10 min brother, 20 min brother, 40 min brother.  If someone is in town, they may take the whole time.  It is painful for us when a 10 min brother gets up for the 40 min slot.  And woe to the brother who does not land the plane by 12:00.

OK, now am I saying that this is a heinous crime?  NO.  I am just pointing out that we have severely lacked autonomy, and we have done just what we said that we didn't want to do which was to have religiosity instead of worship in spirit and truth.  There is nothing wrong with some structure, but for crying out loud it has been almost exactly like this for 30 years.  Where is the autonomy in that??

I know I'll probably take some heat for this post, but I know that Joe has also been preaching this tune of lack of autonomy for a long time now.  Anyway, for those of you who are still in and truly considering these things, I would hope that you would consider that we can't put God in a box like this!  Worshipping in spirit and truth can't be nailed down like this.  FREEDOM IN CHRIST is the tune we need to be singing!!

Andrea

[editor]

Gues, my dear french friend:

If you think that anyone in Fullerton knows where the money is, then you are totally naive.  Also, if you think that they have the courage to actually let me post it, you are even totallier totally naive.

Most current assembly folk email me, telling me how the Lord has delivered them, and how the website was used of God, etc.  But then tell me not to post their email, or let anyone know they emailed me!!

There is no way anyone in Fullerton, who knows about the part of money that George let them know, would post on this site.  

WHERE ARE THEY!!  NO LEADER(EX) FROM FULLERTON IS ON THIS WEBSITE!!

You, Gues, if you are not just trying to play devil's advocate, are ripe material to continue to follow Geoge on the path to WACO.  I am not kidding.

Please, I implore you, do not take six weeks off from this website.

Brent

[gues]

This is my last post. It is quit evident that this is not a discussion since minds are made up in one direction only.  Good luck in finding a perfect church with no issues or problems.  I am sure there many other groups that meet in simplicity.  But after a while, you will pick them to pieces also and when will the cycle end?

PS - Brent - take 6 weeks off of this site for your families sake, I have only been here one day, and have seen enough.  

[TGarisek]

I have every reason to believe that Gues is a young man. Reminds me of a little boy stomping off to his room when told he can't watch a TV program. The site (any BB) affords individuals the opportunity to express their opinion but when confronted in what they may deem an unreasonable majority opinion, easily escape into the opiate of their closed environment and fantasy world. I'm afraid Gues hasn't seen much of the truth of what has been aired here... yet.  Additionally, the French are not easily corrected by English speaking peoples. I wouldn't be surprised if he lives in Paris!

[outdeep]

Dear Gues,

The questions I posed in my post are genuine and would I would listen to your answer.  If you don't like the BB format, feel free to e-mail me directly.

Dave Sable
outdeep@yahoo.com

[BenJapheth]

Regarding "Gues"...

This board is open - and YES! - everyone has the right to exercise their freedom of speech and thought here.  

However, it also true that there is nothing wrong with many of us hoping that Gues will exercise his freedom to go somewhere else.

Nothing wrong with wrong opinions, however, uninfomed opinions are really tough to swallow.  This is one of the infinite applications of God's grace, I guess Gues.

God's grace to you Gues!

I would hope that in addition to your apparent bad-will and pejorative demeanor toward Brent and the people who post on this site, you will at a minimum be a man of your word and not post here again.

Many thanks for this assurance and your integrity for honoring your commitment!  

And, All the best to you!

Chuck Vanasse

[gues not]

This is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. You say I am from France and the French aren't easily corrected by English speaking people.  How lame.  Now a new rumor will spread on this board based on your false assumption.

I have every reason to believe that Gues is a young man. Reminds me of a little boy stomping off to his room when told he can't watch a TV program. The site (any BB) affords individuals the opportunity to express their opinion but when confronted in what they may deem an unreasonable majority opinion, easily escape into the opiate of their closed environment and fantasy world. I'm afraid Gues hasn't seen much of the truth of what has been aired here... yet.  Additionally, the French are not easily corrected by English speaking peoples. I wouldn't be surprised if he lives in Paris!

[Andrea Denner]

gues or guesnot,
What exactly did you not like about this thread besides the joking about who you are?

[gues not]

Here is the crux of the matter: There is very little fact on this board and a lot of opinion on what and what not should be done.  WOW startling revelation. People have wasted weeks on this site and found out rumors, whispers and etc...just like the previous person said about me.  Well, she is wrong.

I would encourage all of you ...just as Brent recommended, to take six weeks off....but I would add , six weeks off of this board.

gues or guesnot,
What exactly did you not like about this thread besides the joking about who you are?

[Andrea Denner]

Gues not,
You had given your opinion on what you thought about the Sunday morning worship time, and then I gave mine.  How is that a rumor?

I would encourage you to challenge those who are just putting up rumors and whisperings if you know the truth of the matter.  They want to know the truth!

Also,  why won't you put your name on here?

A

[Rachel]

You want facts:

1 - My dad kept track of all the LT money in a red book in his desk drawer.  When at the end of the month he took the remaining money to Fullerton to give to his mother, he tore out the page and burned it.  

2 - Most Churches, you can walk into the Entrance  of the church and see pinned on a board an accounting of how much money came in, where it went, and what the budget was.  Most Churches are VERY CLEAR on how much money comes in and where the money goes.  That way anyone who can add and subtract can know if all the money is accounted for.

3 - Betty taught we should be faithful in the little things.  She also taught that money was a little thing.  So you would conclude they had been detailed in their faithfulness of the money and yet, no one can tell you were it went except generally. ie - to rental of a hall, paying the fulltime workers, etc.  But how much if any was left over after all that?  Do you know?

Anyone who knows, please send it to me.  I would love to see what has been done over the years.  

4 - They tracked in Fullerton what hymns were asked for and who prayed.  

What are the facts that you know or want to know, or are you just bugged that there are some out here that are no longer fooled and may burst the bubble the assembly has been exisiting in.

[Gues Who?]

Gues not,
You had given your opinion on what you thought about the Sunday morning worship time, and then I gave mine.  How is that a rumor?

I would encourage you to challenge those who are just putting up rumors and whisperings if you know the truth of the matter.  They want to know the truth!

Also,  why won't you put your name on here?

A

Why not put up a name?  Maybe "Gues Not" is a real name.

But seriously, I have seen many sincere posters here with aliases who have brought real insight into the whole assembly situation. I guess that there could be many reasons for aliases.  Here's a few that I can think of.

1)  Perhaps "Gues Not" and others don't want to appear prideful by identifying themselves with providing us with valuable information such as"PS - Brent - take 6 weeks off of this site for your families sake, I have only been here one day, and have seen enough."
2) Perhaps "Gues Not" and others may have some great insight that if their true identity was known, would cause some of the victims identities to be made known against their desires (or perhaps some of the identities of the guilty as well)
3) Perhaps "Gues Not" and others don't want to make others feel bad who have some need to use an alias.
4)  Perhaps "Gues Not" and others really have the last name of Geftakys, or some other name in the Geftakys leadership structure.
5) Perhaps I don't have a clue what I am talking about.

[editor]

Wow Gues

You have really changed my opinion of the French.  I always thought they were rude, but you are so compassionate in your brave use of an alias.

Keep it up.  It really helps many of us out to hear you explain things.

brent