Nebraska

[Toni Fuller]

I find it interesting that for real, things are proceeding as usual.  I just found out that the teen conference is going on as scheduled with Roger Grant & Mike Zach at the helm.  What's with that???

[Toni Fuller]

Nancy,  dear friend of mine,  I welcome your 2 cents and I understand that it will be a great time of fellowship with each other.  My other 2 cents are that how can in such a brief time, 2 men who like the rest of us have had such influence and deception be fit to lead young people in a new way??  From what I've seen there has been more talk seen than response from several places.  It's going to take much time for the GG influence to be cleared away from people's minds and thoughts, esp. for those who'be been influenced for over the past 20 yrs.  Just my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own....Thank GOD !!    

[Rachel]

Nancy,

No your teens are not stupid.  However, they have grown up with the assembly indoctrination as their only reference point.  Like a child that grows up being beaten, they don't know any different.  They have no healthy situation with which to compare.  "Business as usual" is the comfortable place for your teen because it is what they have always known.  

All they have now is emotional response of fear of losing friends.  We all know that teens will do a lot to keep from losing friends.  Look at teens who use drugs or drink just because, "their friends are".  

To say you have faith that they are not being brainwashed is niave to say the least.  To say that you believe Mike Zach has been moved to real humility and repentance is also wishful thinking.  Here is a man who witnessed first hand what had been happening in my family's home.  Heard my mother's first hand account three years ago.  He promised help and then none came from him.  He was a full time worker.  I wonder how much his paycheck influenced his decision to remain silent, protected by the geographical distance of his Omaha location.  Also if he has truely repented, how come he has not written to my mother asking forgiveness like so many others who knew have done after being involved in her situation.  You are saying you are believing the best about him until you have hard proof.  Well you have hard proof of his involvement and no hard proof of his repentance.  Are you going to take the word of a man who has been complicit in the abandonement of an abused woman?  The lack of a letter of any sort to a woman who he counseled, promised help to and then did not follow through on that promise should be proof enough for any concerned parent to ask some serious and hard questions.  Also here are men who were in leadership and were totally fooled by a self proclaimed "Servant of God" who was living an immoral life.  If as a leader they cannot even see that, how can they be arrogant enough to believe they are still qualified to lead.  Why would they expect the sheep to trust them with their lambs, just because that was business as usual in the past?

Yes your kids need to be able to be honest with out fear of punishment.  Why would you trust that to happen with men who have been leaders in an organization that has supressed  honesty.  Yes, your kids need to have open and life changing comunication.  Maybe it could be with their parents, and as a family, to build the relationships that have been so strained by the assembly's training.  Maybe instead of spending the money on the T&T you could go for a weekend away as a family and enjoy connecting with each other and discussing your family's thoughts and struggles through this whole time.  I wonder why they haven't encouraged the families to do something like this instead of the T&T.  It would do the families well to have time to enjoy each other and decide as a family, with the teens imput, what they believe, and what they think God wants.  Instead the teens are sent off to be talked to about this by a suspect leadership?  Kind of like sex ed being taught in school instead of by the parents, in an open discussion.

I have been to the T&T as well as the TT and I know the emotional and social pressures brought to bear during those times.  It is a pump up time, emtionally to help the teens feel like they really are involved despite the realities they are faced with every day.

You are making excuses for Roger and Mike because it is hard to say to your teen, I don't trust those men and yet I continue to recognize them as leaders.  The truth is they are not worthy of your trust and yet you continue to give it.  And now you send off your impressionable teen to spend an intense couple of days being given the revised party line.  Really scary if you ask me.  

[editor]

If I had teens old enough to go, I would not let them.

I think the bowling alley is a more healthy spiritual environment that a conference led my Mike Zach.

I am afraid that he might impart his "wizdom" on the youths.  Remember, Mike didn't know about George's character.  How come I did?  Do you want you teens coming to my house and being taught by me?? I at least figured out that George was a wicked man, and I didn't serve him when I found out.

You should send your teens somewhere else, or better yet, send Zach somewhere.

Brent

[editor]

Hello Everyone

The website is not ending.  It will change of course.
Much of the posting right now will change, and we will all once again return to a more sane frame of mind.  The sad thing is that very many excellent posts get buried in flames.  It'll all work out.

In the mean time, what think you of this?

Dear Friends:

I would like to ask all of you to take 10 steps back from this whole thing, in your mind's eye.  Remove yourself from it, and pretend that a broken confused Christian, who is experiencing all of the events at the Assembly, but at another church, has come to you for counsel.  You can see that this person is sincere, but also confused and hurt.  As a strong, mature believer, who has advanced insight into the truth of God's word, you want this person to break free from any sort of bondage, and have joy and liberty in Christ.

This broken, confused brother has told you:

• The leader of his group is an adulterer and an immoral man
• All of the money is kept secret and is handled only by the immoral leader
• The leader's son is a wife beater and has his own, very dysfunctional life
• The leadership was all handpicked by the immoral, money loving leader
• Hundreds of former members of the group have identical stories about abuse and control
• 2 best-selling books and numerous articles by a Christian author called the group "Abusive"
• Every other Evangelical church in town counsels people to stay away from the group
• A national cult expert, and several leading Christian Cult awareness groups have called the group a cult, and former members have actually been de-programmed.
• There is a website about this dear confused brother's group, that has thousands of pages of testimonies that all point to the fact that something is seriously wrong

How would you counsel this person?

If this person turned out to be you, would you take your own counsel?

Take Six Weeks Off!

Brent

[guest]

Could you provide a bit more detail regarding Mike Zach? I hope that the conversation will be amicable but would like be able to raise other legitimate items besides Judy if they are documented. He must not be allowed to maintain a cloak of respectability if he has been unfaithful. While I do not want to prejudge him, his silence so far has been quite deafening. Why are so few willing to face these folk?  E-mail me if you care to. Thanks.
Verne

[guest]

Could you provide a bit more detail regarding Mike Zach? I hope that the conversation will be amicable but would like be able to raise other legitimate items besides Judy if they are documented. He must not be allowed to maintain a cloak of respectability if he has been unfaithful. While I do not want to prejudge him, his silence so far has been quite deafening. Why are so few willing to face these folk?  E-mail me if you care to. Thanks.
Verne

Simple reminder
  - get it from the mouth of 2 or 3 or more
  - don't take your news as fact from an anonymous source (including me!)
  - I would guess there's enuff intelligence in NE, that if that's being said, MANY will bolt (these aren't little children)
  - I would encourage any: inquire personally

[BenJapheth]

My name is Chuck Vanasse, my Father-In-Law is Chuck Miller father of Becky Cohen, Nancy Lehmkuhl, Patty Mathews, Chris Sjogren, Mike Miller as well as my wife Ann Vanasse and three other sons.

The little church in Omaha began in Chuck Miller's home and was merged or taken over by George Giftakys in the late '70s. Chuck Miller was severely sinned against by Mike Zach and Jim Hayman 25 years ago in dividing Chuck's family in two.  

One example for now...

Chuck Miller was told when he decided to leave the Assembly by Jim Hayman - "Chuck, if you leave the assembly you're leaving God."

Witnesses include my wife who was then 17 years-old and Chuck's wife Mary Ann Miller.

This and many other evil deeds need to be repented of immediately.

I call upon Mike Zach as well as Jim Hayman to repent of their evil deeds in the sight of God and men concerning Chuck Miller or your deeds will be published.

If anyone would like to locate witnesses to these two mens divisive deeds please write Chuck Miller chuckfmiller@hotmail.com

Chuck Vanasse

[BenJapheth]

One of many witnesses to the evil deeds of Mike Zach and Jim Hayman in deeds of divisiveness toward Chuck Miller and his family.

"Dear Chuck & Mary Ann,  

This is ***** *****.It's seems like so long ago, during those early days in the assembly. A lot has happened since then, but I'll make a long story short. I moved to ****** and was married in **** in the assembly. In *****, my ******* and I left the assembly and were branded as deceivers. I always saw myself and others in the assembly as victims, not as willing participants in the sins of the assembly. Through the website that Brent Tr0ckman has started I have come to see my part in the wrongdoing that destroyed so many families, including yours. As I sat by and even cooperated with the Omaha leadership, your name and your home was being attacked. I didn't bother finding out the facts, I just took my stand against you while they split your familiy apart. For all of this I repent and ask your forgiveness. I know you have endured many years of pain because of all this. I only pray that now that things are really being brought into the open that your family will be restored. I have only fond memories of your love and graciousness and I thank you for your example to me as a young Christian.  

Trusting His Mercy, *****"

I implore Mike Zach and Jim Hayman by the Mercies of God to repent of their evil deeds against Chuck and Mary Ann Miller

[jesusfreak]

How would you counsel this person?

If this person turned out to be you, would you take your own counsel?

Take Six Weeks Off!

Brent

If the point of the 6 weeks was to distance yourself from the assembly in every way possible to allow you to clear your head and help you see clearly from the less intense viewpoint of being *right there* and looking out, would it not also follow that this board should not be read?  It seems like it would be a hinderance to one's goal of seperation otherwise.  Just a thought

[BenJapheth]

We are prepared to bring forth witnesses

One of many witnesses to the evil deeds of Mike Zach and Jim Hayman in deeds of divisiveness toward Chuck Miller and his family.

"Dear Chuck & Mary Ann,  

This is ***** *****. It's seems like so long ago, during those early days in the assembly. A lot has happened since then, but I'll make a long story short. I moved to ****** and was married in **** in the assembly. In *****, my ******* and I left the assembly and were branded as deceivers. I always saw myself and others in the assembly as victims, not as willing participants in the sins of the assembly. Through the website that Brent Tr0ckman has started I have come to see my part in the wrongdoing that destroyed so many families, including yours. As I sat by and even cooperated with the Omaha leadership, your name and your home was being attacked. I didn't bother finding out the facts, I just took my stand against you while they split your familiy apart. For all of this I repent and ask your forgiveness. I know you have endured many years of pain because of all this. I only pray that now that things are really being brought into the open that your family will be restored. I have only fond memories of your love and graciousness and I thank you for your example to me as a young Christian.  

Trusting His Mercy, *****"

I implore Mike Zach and Jim Hayman by the Mercies of God to repent of their evil deeds against Chuck and Mary Ann Miller

If Jim Hayman and Mike Zach refuse to repent we are prepared to bring forth witnesses with respect to the specifity of times, parties and other particulars.  

Mike Zach and Jim Hayman by the fear of God and His infinite mercies will you repent?

[BenJapheth]

Mike Zach has been complicit in the destruction of two families...

Mike Zach is a man who witnessed first hand what had been happening in my family's home.  He heard my mother's first hand account three years ago.  He promised help and then none came from him...a man who has been complicit in the abandonement of an abused woman

One of many witnesses to the evil deeds of Mike Zach and Jim Hayman in deeds of divisiveness toward Chuck Miller and his family.

"Dear Chuck & Mary Ann,  

This is ***** *****.It's seems like so long ago, during those early days in the assembly. A lot has happened since then, but I'll make a long story short. I moved to ****** and was married in **** in the assembly. In *****, my ******* and I left the assembly and were branded as deceivers. I always saw myself and others in the assembly as victims, not as willing participants in the sins of the assembly. Through the website that Brent Tr0ckman has started I have come to see my part in the wrongdoing that destroyed so many families, including yours. As I sat by and even cooperated with the Omaha leadership, your name and your home was being attacked. I didn't bother finding out the facts, I just took my stand against you while they split your familiy apart. For all of this I repent and ask your forgiveness. I know you have endured many years of pain because of all this. I only pray that now that things are really being brought into the open that your family will be restored. I have only fond memories of your love and graciousness and I thank you for your example to me as a young Christian.  

Trusting His Mercy, *****"

I implore Mike Zach and Jim Hayman by the Mercies of God to repent of their evil deeds against Chuck and Mary Ann Miller

Mike Zach is a man that is not above reproach...

[Nate Dogg]

Rachel, I know this is a bit late-- I'm reading all of this a bit late, and am strangely drawn to it and every other bit of information i can get my hands on. anyway, just wanted to say, thank you so much for the post, it was right on in so many ways, esp enlight of the social pressures of the teen team and teen conference. I used to dread those things because of how uncool i was and because most of the spiritual stuff seems manufactured.
Also, big up Uncle chuck this is your nephew Nate! How are you?
                              peace,
                                  Nate

[Guest]

COLD WEATHER:  After the 30 degrees below zero weather, it warmed up to 4 above freezing.  Our phone lines froze and then someone stole the copper wires to sell.  So we have been without the internet off and on for three weeks.  If you wrote and haven't heard from us, maybe the message didn't go thru.  Please write again.  For those who sent money to buy food, wood, and warm clothing and are sending material help....."thank you" seems so inadequate.  If you were here, these poor people would kiss your hand. (that is a custom here in Romania) with tears of joy and gratitude.  
 
The weather has turned really cold again.  When you go to bed tonight and every night, thank God for giving you warmth and.  pray for those that have none.  Eat every meal and every bite with thanksgiving and pray for those who have none or little.  Give every person you meet a smile - and pray for those who have no reason to smile.  Give God praise for every flower and every beautiful thing - and pray for those who cannot see.  Lift up praises for singing and beautiful music - and pray for those who cannot hear.  Read your Bible daily with joy in your heart - and pray for those who have no Bible or joy in their hearts.  Thank God you can worship in peace - and pray for those who cannot.  When you turn on the water - thank God for every drop - and pray for those who have none.  When you walk freely in the sunshine - pray for those who have no freedom and haven't seen daylight in years.  Pray for those who cannot walk.  Thank God for your children - and pray for those who have no parents.  Thank God for your salvation and reconcilliation to Him and humanity - and pray for those who have never heard this Good News.  Psalm 107 "O give thanks unto the Lord, for He is good, for His mercy endureth for ever.  Let the redeemed of the Lord say so whom He hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy."
 
Your rewards will be great for helping the poor and outcasts of society.  And that number is growing by leaps and bounds in most of the world.  Surely we are in the last days when the God of Peace will descend and bring His peace and prosperity to the world.  
 
THE ANGELS PRAYER:  Luke 2:14   "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth, peace, good will toward men."  Pray for peace.
 
A GREAT TRAGEDY IN ROMANIA:  
 
How many Romanian children will not live through the year 2003 because of what was discussed in the article below::  "Poor nutrition compounded by other problems burden pupils in Romanian schools with a broad range of signs and symptoms: dizziness, headaches and abdominal aches, vomiting and not once, prolonged fainting....lack of proper and emergency medical care, etc,etc,etc."

The article appeared in "Nine O'Clock"
(http://www.nineoclock.ro/index.php?show=politics&issue=2846&id=20030129-212227)

There are 3 stages of starvation......these kids are in the first stage.  Two children died in their classrooms last week. This is a national crisis. Romania used to be the "Little Paris of Europe" and the "Breadbasket of Europe" and now, their society is crumbling.
 

THE POINT IS THIS:   It is difficult for someone to respond to an invitation to Christ if they have an empty belly and not enough clothing to stay warm and no proper place to live....and we do.  It is difficult to share the gospel with someone who sees that the person who speaks of our loving God has their needs met.....and ignores their suffering.  James says it is of no profit to have faith without works.  James 2:15-17 "If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."  We are not saved by works, but we earn the right to speak to another if we show we care about them. They will then listen. God cares through us.  The gifts you send here and elsewhere for the poor are an invitation to accept God's greatest gift - His only begotten Son.  Pray that God will make us more willing workers together.
 
With MUCH love,    Ron and Sue   inasmuch@fx.ro   www.inasmuch.ro
 
Address:  Ron Bates,  C.P.  53--55,  Bucharest 4, Romania  tel:  313-5465 or 456-3224

[Jim Haan]

Where's this post from Nancy Bellinger?  I can't seem to find it.  

Also, I have something to say about the social pressures felt at the T&T and TT.  Why and how did you feel these social pressures?  Why, Nate, did you feel 'uncool'?  It's my understanding that with *any* large group of people (especially teenagers) there are natural social pressures to fit in and find a suitable clique.


david

Thanks Toni...I guess without knowing what the agenda is for the T&T conf it would be hard to know just how much influencing is going to go on THIS year.  What I am hoping is that it will be a time for our YOUNG people to bring issues out into the open and  connect in a way that has been difficult if not impossible to do in the past(not all the teens spend time on this site or BB)Our teens aren't stupid, they can see through hypocrisy and double talk and if someone tries to keep "business as usual" I have faith that they will not be brainwashed by it...also...I'm not trying to make excuses for Roger and Mike...but if the Lord has moved them to repentance and true brokenness and humility(and here I am hoping and believing the best for both of my brothers since I don't have any definitive proof) then I also believe that the Lord can use them at the T&T conf.  What we all need to remember is that our kids want to be heard and have answers...lets pray that the T&T conf will provide for honest, open and life changing communication for ALL involved!  
So that's it from me...I will leave it others who want to continue to discuss this topic.