Very concerned.

[guest]

Luke,
I appreciate your sincerity and the stand you are taking very much. May I suggest  if you haven't done so already, that you read the thread called "Assembly History" by the Irons. I would also recommend the thread about assembly history that other people have started. I think it is incumbant on you to know the beginnings of "this ministry", which after all is what you are involved with. I am gratified to see what a serious young man you are. I have no doubt that God will lead you.
Guest

[Brian_Steele]

I would like to repeat my offer to send anybody an analysis of Robert Lifton's 8 criteria of a cult and how it relates to the Assemblies.  Decide for yourself.  I would be more than willing to keep your identity in confidence if you don't want others to know that you're being sent this material.  The document is about 12 pages long.  If the Assemblies truly do share common ground and practices as other acknowledged cults, wouldn't you like to know?

Please contact me if you're interested.

Brian Steele
dirtsqueezer@hotmail.com

[editor]

Dear Brian

Your analysis is going to be posted on the main webpage soon.  Of course, that doesn't mean that people can't get it from you,  

Brent

[Kimberley Tobin]

Luke:

I appreciate your sincerity.  That is one of the refreshing things about youth.  Isn't it interesting that our Lord said we would need to become like children (I am not referring to you as a child - young adults, generally still hold childlike qualities-a good thing) to enter into the Kingdom?  

However, your warning me about my statements regarding George.  The Lord Jesus said some pretty harsh things about the pharisees, didn't he.  He called them hypocrites, fools, blind guides, serpents, vipers.  How did Paul counsel the church in Corinth, (1Cor 5:11-13) "11  But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13  But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

Paul called a brother  in George's condition "that wicked person".  He is simply calling a spade a spade.  I am sorry if it offends.  I am not trying to offend.  I am trying (like what Rick Ross did for Brian Steele) to present you simply with the facts in order for you to think through clearly your decisions.  

I understand I will stand for what I say.  You aren't even aware that what you stated there  is an assembly tactic to put the burden back on me for the truth I am giving you, rather than for you to look at the information I am presenting undistracted.  These accusations against George, yes God knows they are truthful, are you questioning as to the veracity of the accusations?  I am not being "hasty".  George has been allowed to deceive hundreds (if not thousands) for 30 years.  This is not "hasty", this is God patiently waiting on George to repent.  He has given this man plenty of time.  This is God's judgement on the man and his ministry.  

Why did Jesus warn us of false prophets?  He did that, so when they came (and he said they would) we would be able to know them.  It is by their fruit that you will know them, that is what we are to judge.  And yes, we are to judge their fruit.  It is not a lack of compassion I have, in fact it is the compassion I have for my brothers and sisters that keeps me involved here.  I am nothing.  Believe me, I am not the person to come to, to find out all the doctrine that is wrong with what George has taught.  I have stated that over and over in my posts.  Get with men who have been trained in seminary.  I don't think I am anything.  But just as when God told Jonah to go to Ninevah and tell them to repent, that is what I am doing.  I am obeying God in my involvement here.

If you don't know what is false and what is "good" (as you put it) how will you know what to keep and what to throw out?  Scripture is not to be of any private interpretation (see 2 Peter 1:20.)  

We all at one time had "total peace" about being involved in this gathering.  Why, you ask, do I not have peace about men and women being involved in this place?  You (I believe I am correct in saying this, correct me if I am wrong) do not have a wife and children yet.  Although the teaching is dangerous for single men and women, I believe it is EXTREMELY dangerous for married men and women and their children.  Talk with numerous individuals in this situation who have left.  I know the fruit in my own family.  AWFUL!  Thank God, He is redeeming our lives and repairing the damage.  Of course I leave you in God's hands to make the decision you feel is right.  I'm just shocked that with the MASSIVE amounts of information presented thus far, anyone in their right mind would stick around.

Why don't you take Brian up on his offer of his analysis of Robert Lifton's 8 criteria of a cult and how it relates to the assembly?  Just because you don't see the correlation yet, I hope you don't have to wait 10 years, with a wife and children to see what those of us who have come out have seen.

Try going to other churches.  Get in a bible study there and see what the doctrinal differances are.  If you don't have all the information how can you make an informed decision?

Kimberley

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Kimberly,

No doubt that George has done some very wicked things.  We are getting off on the right foot.  I know that Jesus called different people things to yield a response in them.  Brent has told me that.  John Malone has told me that.  That is not what I am saying though.  I am not saying that George is innocent or should be allowed to preach.  I am not saying that he isn't wicked or that it is a light thing of what he has done over the years.  

But especially on the point of "false teacher".  Yes, he might have said some things that I and others have totally unagreement with.  But I don't believe he was a false teacher, because he went along with the word of God.  And that is one good thing that he has continued to drive home whenever he spoke.  TO READ GOD'S WORD.  To label people a false teacher is very serious.

I am not offended by what you are saying.  Far from it.  But you say that you are simply just presenting the facts and letting me decide accordingly.  Please read your post again.  Read the one before that.  You have said that it is "wicked from the root."  That "God is not in this place."  So if you are just presenting the facts...why does it seem like you are trying to heartily convince me to leave?

I IN NO WAY AM TRYING TO USE "ASSEMBLY TACTICS".  I AM NOT TRYING TO PUT BLAME BACK ON YOU.  IN NO WAY.  I AM VERY AWARE OF WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING AND HAVE READING THIS WEBSITE INSIDE AND OUT.  I HAVE READ BOOKS AND PAMPHLETS AND ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT INFO.  I AM NOT TALKING OUT OF IGNORANCE HERE, MA'AM.  

The point of my writing is not to put blame back on you.  I just want to remind you of your responsibility in what you are saying.  

I am just saying that I don't think "false teacher" is right.  Do you know of examples of where Geoge said things totally contradictary to the Bible?  I don't want personal differences, just things where what he says totally interferes with the work of God in your life and in others?

I know that he was exclusive.  Very wrong for him to do.  I know he was proud and overbearing.  Very wrong.  

But you're saying that he is a false teacher and a false prophet.  So what did he say that contradicted the Bible?  Did he say that Christ never died on the cross?  Did he say that there is no such thing as the Trinity?  Did he say there is no God?  Did he say we don't have to confess our sins?  Did he say that you can lose your salvation?  Did he say that Jesus Christ was only a prophet?  Did he say that only Jews have the opportunity to come to God?  Did he say that God is dead?  What has he been saying that was against the Bible?  I have never heard him say anything that I just listed but if you have or you have any more things, I would like to know.

Do you think I am just sitting around writting on this website with out any insight at all?  If I didn't, I would go to a different web site, such as ignorance-is-bliss.com.  (just made that up).  But, ma'am, I have been reading my Bible every day and have been consulting other people about what they think about certain things that George has said over the years.  No, I am not brainwashed or a "slave to assembly tactics".  You are getting the wrong idea about me.  

But I want to say, that one day, I would like to meet many of you.  Face to face.  Where we can get to know each other and talk about these things.  The web site seems cold and the written word sometimes conveys wrong feelings and emotions.  

I thank you for your compassion and love.  But I want you to know that I am walking with the Lord and if he wants me to move to the church down the street, or to your church, or to a church in northern Thailand, I will move there.  I will not just stamp my feet, and say,"No, Lord, I am staying here!"  I am willing for whatever.  This is not a topic worth discussing.

As soon as we establish whether George is a "false teacher" or not, then we can talk about whether it is a dangerous place for everyone to be here.  I have talked to people.  Married people.  Single people.  But you are blaming the teachings of George and the assembly for the problems in your family.  What did he teach that was utterly wrong?  Think about it.  You could be in the Baptist Church, the Methodist Church, the nondenominational church, in fact, you could be in the statistically most holiest gathering in the U.S.  But what makes a person right before God, is having a personal relationship with Him, confessing sins and many more things.  I don't know all the details about your family, and I am not acting as if I do.  I would like to see your reasoning behind this argument.

I see that all the people that went to another church must be in their right mind and those sticking around must not be.  Or is that just the impression I get from paragraph seven?

I will never have all the information.  It is just not humanly possible.  And also, I can't be sure if what you are saying is absolutely sure.  And I am not sitting around just taking your word for it, just like I didn't take George's word for it.

God doesn't move by majority vote and therefore until he shows me to get going, I guess I will just have to be one of those "wrong-minded" individuals and stick around.  

I want to thank you for your time and may God bless you.  Maybe some day, we can meet on different terms.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson  

[editor]

Dear Luke

I'm sure Kimberley will answer as well.

I am just saying that I don't think "false teacher" is right.  Do you know of examples of where Geoge said things totally contradictary to the Bible?  I don't want personal differences, just things where what he says totally interferes with the work of God in your life and in others?

The most recent example I know of is where george taught that man was created on the seventh day.  He did this several times, and was quite emphatic about it.  This is contradictory to the Bible.

The most serious example that I know of is George's teaching on the inheritance.  His doctrine creates a marriage of Grace and a merit based system of salvation.  This is known as the Galatian Heresy.  Christ plus something.  In  George's case it was Christ plus obedience, yielding, the heavenly vision, being trained, being faithful, etc.

In other words, everyone understood that if they wanted to "get on with the Lord," and "Not miss out on God's best,"  it meant living in a training home and submitting to the leadership, attending meetings etc.  

I know, it was almost never said, "In order to Inherit God's best, you must live in a training home."  However, I guarantee it was taught, by suggestion, unclear ministry, George's books, and most importantly, by practice and example.

Also, George clearly taught a division in the Body of Christ.  There were the overcomers, and then those "merely saved."  In practice, he taught that the Assemblies were exclusive and superior to other churches.  The sole exception to this was when he mentioned churches that were long gone, and how great they were.  Certainly there was no church around as good as the Assembly in this century, only in the last.

As has been stated ad nauseum,  the main problem with the Assembly is practice, not doctrine.  Nevertheless, there is plenty of false doctrine, and a false teacher to go with it.

Brent

[VinnieGalati]

Brent et al,

I can concur with your Galatian heresy claim.  I lived in St. Louis and was involved in the work there for 11 years. From 1984-1994.  I will not bore you with all the details but I will wholeheartedly agree with the mixing of law and grace. With a teaching that put you on a treadmill to be acceptable in God's eyes by what you do and not by your identity in Christ.  I lived in training homes, was sent to Jersualem (I mean Fullerton) to be trained in 1986-1987 at Dan Notti's home. I came back and lived in a training home and was involved in the campus work at UMSL for a few years.  I started to see the reality of the New Covenant for the first time in my life in late '93 through a Bible teacher/counselor/author named Bob George (He wrote Classic Christianity) My eyes were opened to my total forgiveness as a believer and Christs unconditional acceptance of me.  I was so excited I began to share these things with the saints in St. Louis.  I was from the get-go met with extreme resistance and harassment. I was told that I could not share these things with the saints in the ministry. Then, I was told by the leadership there (not by Geroge) that I could not share these things even in private conversations with the saints. That is when I knew it was time for me to go. "Is it better to obey God or men". About 1 month after I left, I attended a volleyball fellowship the saints were having as an outreach. To my surprise I was surrounded by the leadership. They said: What are you doing here Vince?  I was very naive and said, honestly, "I was here to say Hi to the saints".  They told me I had to leave because I had unresolved issues in my life and could not be around the saints until I met with the leadership first. I knew this would be a Royal BBQ, so I never did.  That was my last corporate contact with the saints. People I spent 4-5 days/week with for 11 years.  Needless to say, I was hurt and offended. I am past it now. I only share it to respond to the question- What is not biblical about what Geroge taught. This is another testimony and witness in the real world of the effects of George Geftakys Christianity. God Bless- if anyone wants to know more, write me and I will be glad to clarify more of what Bob George's ministry taught me and how my eyes were opened. VPG

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Vince,

First of all, I want to thank you for being a close friend to me for a long time.  I remember the days when you stayed in our home, and I had a lot of fun.  

Just one thing.  Didn't George teach that you had to confess your sins daily?  Is that what you disagreed with?  

I am just wondering, why am I still here at my gathering?  Or at any gathering?  Why don't I just pack my bags and move to Las Vegas, and live in sin and squalor for the rest of my days, but be totally confident that my sins are forgiven?  Would I still be rewarded?  Would God say,"Well done, my good and faithful servant?"  There is no point to living a holy life.  I am just as bad as the athiest who doesn't believe in God.

Please clarify at your disposal.  Thank you.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

[psalm51]

javascript:grin()
Grin
Dear Vince,

I am just wondering, why am I still here at my gathering?  Or at any gathering?  Why don't I just pack my bags and move to Las Vegas, and live in sin and squalor for the rest of my days, but be totally confident that my sins are forgiven?  Would I still be rewarded?  Would God say,"Well done, my good and faithful servant?"  There is no point to living a holy life.  I am just as bad as the athiest who doesn't believe in God.
Luke Robinson

LUKE, YOUR MOTHER WILL NOT LET YOU MOVE TO LAS VEGAS! I'M CALLING HER RIGHT NOW.

[Luke Robinson]

LUKE, YOUR MOTHER WILL NOT LET YOU MOVE TO LAS VEGAS! I'M CALLING HER RIGHT NOW.

EVERYTHING IS SO UNFAIR!!

[jesusfreak]

EVERYTHING IS SO UNFAIR!!

Ha! My mom let me go to Vegas this summer  

granted, she didnt exactly know all the details of us driving to california, but whatever  

[VinnieGalati]

Luke,

That has been the problem from the get go. I have been misquoted on what I do believe. I do not teach "don't confess your sins". I have been brandished with this since I left. You obviously have followed in this thinking. I do not want to monopolize this post with this doctrinal issue, but Mark I thank you for your last posting.
Suffice it to say We are not forgiven because we confess our sins. We are forgiven because of Christ's finished work. I now walk in forgivness. I am forgiven. This is not, is not, is not, is not to say "don't confess your sins".  The question is: How many times does God forgive a believer. Over and over and over or when we come to faith.  Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins".  We are to forgive others, even as Christ forgave us. Notice the tense of the verse- forgave.
Like I said, this is really for another post. I only wanted to share it in light of how everything unraveled in my assembly experience as a result. Many I am sure will disagree with me. That is okay and healthy. I do not believe many will brandish me a heretic and refuse me from talking to Christians. This is the difference.  I will be glad to have this discussion though. I just did not think this was the right context. You were asking about where the Geftakys teaching was off base and unbiblical. I was responding with a concrete example of what I consider spiritual abuse.  Thanks Luke,  VPG

[moonflower]

Dear Luke

I'm sure Kimberley will answer as well.

I am just saying that I don't think "false teacher" is right.  Do you know of examples of where Geoge said things totally contradictary to the Bible?  I don't want personal differences, just things where what he says totally interferes with the work of God in your life and in others?

The most recent example I know of is where george taught that man was created on the seventh day.  He did this several times, and was quite emphatic about it.  This is contradictory to the Bible.

The most serious example that I know of is George's teaching on the inheritance.  His doctrine creates a marriage of Grace and a merit based system of salvation.  This is known as the Galatian Heresy.  Christ plus something.  In  George's case it was Christ plus obedience, yielding, the heavenly vision, being trained, being faithful, etc.

I agree with everything in your post except this paragraph.
I have heard GG preach a number of times saying that salvation was "Christ plus nothing". He did also preach that the inheritance was conditional, which did seem to be scriptural. You don't give an inheritance to a child, but a son. There is a difference between a son and a child, even spiritually.  
How GG went about applying this principal may have been wrong, but the scriptural basis for it is not heretical.

[moonflower]

Dear Luke

I'm sure Kimberley will answer as well.

I am just saying that I don't think "false teacher" is right.  Do you know of examples of where Geoge said things totally contradictary to the Bible?  I don't want personal differences, just things where what he says totally interferes with the work of God in your life and in others?

The most recent example I know of is where george taught that man was created on the seventh day.  He did this several times, and was quite emphatic about it.  This is contradictory to the Bible.

The most serious example that I know of is George's teaching on the inheritance.  His doctrine creates a marriage of Grace and a merit based system of salvation.  This is known as the Galatian Heresy.  Christ plus something.  In  George's case it was Christ plus obedience, yielding, the heavenly vision, being trained, being faithful, etc.

In other words, everyone understood that if they wanted to "get on with the Lord," and "Not miss out on God's best,"  it meant living in a training home and submitting to the leadership, attending meetings etc.  

I know, it was almost never said, "In order to Inherit God's best, you must live in a training home."  However, I guarantee it was taught, by suggestion, unclear ministry, George's books, and most importantly, by practice and example.

Also, George clearly taught a division in the Body of Christ.  There were the overcomers, and then those "merely saved."  In practice, he taught that the Assemblies were exclusive and superior to other churches.  The sole exception to this was when he mentioned churches that were long gone, and how great they were.  Certainly there was no church around as good as the Assembly in this century, only in the last.

As has been stated ad nauseum,  the main problem with the Assembly is practice, not doctrine.  Nevertheless, there is plenty of false doctrine, and a false teacher to go with it.

Brent

This is a redu of the last posting that was botched.
I have always heard GG preach about how salvation was "Christ plus nothing".
As far as the believer's inheritance, scripture makes a difference between children and sons.  A child wouldn't receive an inheritance, only a son would.  There isn't any striving involved to become a son, it's the natural process of growing. But not all Christians grow or continue to walk the path.  
I'm not saying that these ideas didn't become legalistic to the point where no one but a chosen few would be "entering in" , but to say that what he preached was heretical? I don't think so.  (except the 7th day creation bit)

[Kimberley Tobin]

Dear Vince,

First of all, I want to thank you for being a close friend to me for a long time.  I remember the days when you stayed in our home, and I had a lot of fun.  

Just one thing.  Didn't George teach that you had to confess your sins daily?  Is that what you disagreed with?  

I am just wondering, why am I still here at my gathering?  Or at any gathering?  Why don't I just pack my bags and move to Las Vegas, and live in sin and squalor for the rest of my days, but be totally confident that my sins are forgiven?  Would I still be rewarded?  Would God say,"Well done, my good and faithful servant?"  There is no point to living a holy life.  I am just as bad as the athiest who doesn't believe in God.

Please clarify at your disposal.  Thank you.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Dear Luke:

I was going to respond to your first post to me and then I came across this post.  I will say for now, that both Brent and Vinnie did a very good job of responding to the false teaching/false prophet question, and if I feel so led, I will add at a later time additional comments.

However, in response to what you have just stated, this actually is quintessential "assembly" gobbledegook (sp? )  And you don't even realize it!  To think that there is only one extreme; either I am living a holy life i.e. the way the assembly tells me to live, or I am in living in complete debauchery is ludicrous!  You don't need the assembly (or it's teaching on holiness) to keep you from living a sinful life.   Living in the liberality that is apart from "the law" and all about "grace" enables the believer to walk with Christ in true freedom!  Christ is the one who "constrains" me.  I do not indulge in a completely sinfilled life just because I walk away from the "assembly".   You don't have to be "accountable" to other believers in order to live a holy life.   Christ is the one who motivates you to live a holy life.  HE DOES IT!  I get out of the way and let HIM live my life.  I don't have to have a brother or sister "entreat" me how to live holy.  I don't have to be in a training home to fabricate situations that teach me how to live holy.  Just by trusting in Christ and His work on the cross, he will perfect that which concerns me, drawing me closer to Him, sanctifying me, cleansing me, washing me.  Not because I AM DOING ANYTHING, but simply trusting in HIM and HIS WORK.  THIS IS FAITH AND GRACE ALONE!

I can't even convey what I want through the written word.  It is sooooooooo difficult.  My heart breaks for the bondage that is "the assembly".  I lived it for 15 years.  It didn't produce the fruit of the spirit.  It produced depression, bondage and a lack of fruit in my family.  What I have experienced since being away from the assembly and it's teachings is not a release to sin, but a freedom that is producing the fruit of the spirit and a closer walk with Christ (better felt than telt)

More later.