Very concerned.

[editor]

Dear Chuck

I drink beer, and only rarely red wine, but Suzie loves a good Zinfandel (not white zin, real zin!)

I guarantee that I am "wrong."  I don't pretend to understand it all, but this one thing,

Keep your eyes on Christ.  And if in anything we disagree, He will make even that known to us!

Seekeing the kingdom:  the shortest distance is to follow Jesus, the king.  Can't miss!

I took the long way, followed the House of God and its goverment, pattern etc.

May the Lord give me balance and clarity!

Brent

[AaronC]

This thread began with some advice about whether a person should flee the assembly or not.  

For me, that issue reached its critical mass during the summer of 2000.  I realized that even though I might be able to safely walk the minefield of assembly abuses and errors, my infant children might not.  It became clear that I had to take my "little flock" out into greener pastures.

Two weeks ago, our pastor (Tom Ferrell, Atascadero Bible Church) addressed the congregation about the confirmation of some elders.  He read from Titus.  My wife very brilliantly remarked that this is exactly appropriate regarding the assembly.  I challenge all to read the following.  What does the Word of God say about assembly leadership?  Let that guide your decision to stay or leave (or to advise others to stay or leave).

For those still clinging to the assembly (and I spoke with a brother in this group just yesterday): Read Titus 1:5-16.  This is a list of requirements for elders.  One need not progress beyond THE FIRST REQUIREMENT (vs. 6) to realize that the assembly leaders are disqualified.  In a host of ways they are not "blameless."  There are many others verses here that touch on their disapprobation.  Let the first suffice.

5: For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7: For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8: But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9: Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10: For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12: One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13: This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14: Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15: Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

In light of that, consider the following:

It is clear from Scripture that Christians are to worship with others.  It is also clear that the church is to be governed and led.  If the men of the assembly are unfit (and I think Titus is the end of that debate) then it is a matter of logic that God's people need to flee the assembly.

(Sidebar: I disagree with Brent about his 6 Weeks Off call, if that means 6 Weeks away from church.  I'd say 6 Weeks away from the assembly...I'd also support 6 decades...When my wife and I left, we tried to treat it like honeymoon time with God...We Looked at how various Christians worship.  My wife and I asked a Christian lady for a list of 10 Bible-based churches and then visited them all.  Some places were weird for us...But most were great.)  

A friend yesterday asked me if God could "raise up something new" in SLO.  Of course.  He could also astralproject Saddam Hussein to Venus or cause my freshmen to like John Milton.  It's axiomatic that God can do as He chooses.  

But here we're dealing in hypotheticals.  God has shown the current assembly leaders to be unfit.  There might be leaders in the future who are fit.  If such a day ever dawns, then perhaps saints may consider returning to assemblies.  I might consider returning.

But that seems to be a distant hope.  It seems silly to trade the plain teaching of the Bible for a "maybe."

As I am prone to error, I submit the preceeding for comments.  I would especially like to hear from those who think saints should stay in their various assemblies.

Aaron Cantrell



 

[retread]

...
And, since you're not in the assembly anymore, I'll bring the red wine...You know you shouldn't just have water exclusively, you should really have a little wine for your stomach (I knew all my scripture memorization was going to come in handy)  
...

1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us

Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Galations 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

He abides in us, wine is a mocker, and God is not mocked. Hmm...

[Kimberley Tobin]

Retread:

For those of us who are willing to admit we are a little dense, what is your point?

[editor]

Dear retread

I assume that your last post was meant to poke fun?

Aaron:

six weeks off, clearly means six weeks away from the Assembly, and everything in its sphere.

Your last post was quite excellent,  and I agree with it.  In fact, I find it very difficult to disagree with.

The only thing I would add, is that after Suzie and I left, remember how you pleaded with me to stay and "preach Christ?"  It took you a little time to get things figured out.  About a month to six weeks to be precise....these folks will get it, soon enough, execpt for the ones who are proud and who suppress the truth.

Brent

[retread]

Retread:

For those of us who are willing to admit we are a little dense, what is your point?

Point? You mean I have to have a point.  All I was doing, was quoting three entirely different scripture verses saying that:

1) Wine is a mocker.
2) God is not mocked.
3) God lives in is.

The missing step from here being that how could we allow wine to be in us if God lives in us (as God is not mocked).  This was intended as a "cute" response to Chuck's "cute" reason of "a little wine for the stomach".

...
I assume that your last post was meant to poke fun?
...

Oh, do I have to admit this. Err, Umm. Okay, Okay, I was poking fun of the "little wine for the stomach" reason.  Brent, you should know that I am not above poking a little fun here and there. Do I need to repent?

[editor]

Dear retread

If you continue in this manner, I will demote you.  You will no longer be a full-time poster!  

I don't have the time for it, but there are many verses that describe the proper use of wine, and it isn't only for the stomach!  Your division of the word of God in your post was not quite a straight line.  Jesus made great wine for His first miracle, and He was perfectly OK with people drinking it!

There is also a verse that mentions the proper use of strong drink, and it is for those who mourn.

If I debate Chuck, he will probably start drinking scotch, straight up, because he will soon mourn the error of his ways.
 

The proper use of beer is to drink it sparingly, no more than one per day, (for me).  An unpasteurized beer, like Newcastle, is best.  It should be imbibed, on the boat, on a comfortable reach, with the auto-pilot steering, and a warm breeze blowing across the beam.

That is the proper use of beer, my friends.

Now, just to make it clear,  Drunkeness is sin.  It is not what goes in to a man that defiles him, but what comes out of his heart.  Drunkeness is a heart problem.  I do not get drunk, ever.

Brent

[retread]

...
Now, just to make it clear,  Drunkeness is sin.  It is not what goes in to a man that defiles him, but what comes out of his heart.  Drunkeness is a heart problem.  I do not get drunk, ever.

I'll drink to that!  

[KF]

Is it possible the disciples had a hard time waking up in the garden because they had too much wine with their dinner?

(just something I've always wondered about)

Maybe that explains why it was always difficult to stay awake for sunday morning ministry!!!!!!  It's SCRIPTURAL to snooze after the Lord's supper!!!!!!!!!!

[Rudy]

Doctor Brent Tr0ckman:

This letter is to inform you that:

It is alright to fall asleep before the Sunday
afternoon meeting since it is all rehash anyway.

It is also medically advisable to drink scotch
straight up considering the "stuff" going on.
Timothy needed wine for his stomach - but
Hoo boy, this stuff requires the medication
for those that mourn. Selah.

R. Kristavcnik

[editor]

Thanks Rudy

I myself, do not drink scotch, or smoke cigars.  but if I did, I would.  But I have no desire to.

I do have a couple friends who do the former, and it doesn't bother me, but I don't know how I could drink a glass of single malt, and not feel it.  I guess you get used to it, but I really don't want to!

The cigar thing makes no sense at all to me.  A pipe has been tempting, but I have never done so, and probably won't.

So, I'm stuck with beer and fresh, hand caught(mine) lobster.
I do often BBQ the lobster with a champaign/butter sauce.  MMMMMMmmmm

Also, cooking shrimp in tequila or triple-sec is amazing!  Then, I make a sauce with 1/2 orange marmalade and 1/2 thai chili sauce, and put the shrimp inside a won-ton wrapper, topped with the sauce, and a good pinch of orange and lemon zest!

Let me tell you, it is amazing!  You don't need scotch when you cook like that!

I sail, and cook.  I also do both at the same time!

Brent

[Rudy]

I feel totally sorry for you. The tugboat thing sounds
nice, but i'm land locked. Except for when I was in
Port Angeles, WA. The best seafood was the stuff i
got from the indians coming through - 3 lbs. salmon
for about 10 bucks.; a couple of Dungeonous crabs
for $10 and even one time got some shrimp for free.
Hey and you know what - the "fresh" salmon i bought
at Albertson's - i got food poisoning of of that "stuff".
Love "Rockzillas" though w/ some turf.

[editor]

Dear Rudy

If you call a sailboat a.....gasp.....tugboat again, I'll boot you right off this forum!

Do you hear me!  Sit up here's where I can see you.  I'm talking to all of you, see?  We've never had that in this place before, and we're not going to start now.

If you hear your brethren talking like Rudy here, please help them to stop it. AMEN?

A sailboat is NOT a tugboat.  That's what the world calls it, but that's not what we stand for in this place. AMEN?

editor...servant of the GM.  GM appointed and clothed in the GM's authority.

[Rudy]

Wow,

The head cheese is hyper-sensitive, eh  

Your tugboat does have a motor in it if the
winds fail doesn't it. If it does, and I suspect
it does, it doesn't qualify as a true sailing vessel.
Sorry, but the lobster bisque and such couldn't
be as good as what the indians dropped off
for me at my house, eh  

Besides, I'm beyond "help"  

[hh]

Well,this is my final posting after stiring up what seems like a hornets nest of heartache and selfjustification. I know from experience that written communicatin can land you in a whole lot of trouble with the recipients depending upon their relationship with you(or lack of one). I do know that Paul teaches us that, "The letter kills but its the Spirit that gives life." I sense many are using God`s word to beat a brother or sister over the head and/or justify themselves. I am gratefull to those of you who have advised me regarding my friends joining an "Assembly". I commend you all unto Him who is able to keep you from falling and present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise God,our Savior, be glory and majesty,dominion and power, now and forever. Amen!