Very concerned.

[hh]

Hi! This is my first post. I have known the Lord since I was 17 and am worshiping with believers in the UK (not an "Assembly")Two very dear friends of ours have joined themselves to "an Assembly" in the UK and I am concerned for them. From their conversations with me I sensed they were involved with "loose cannons" Am I right or wrong? I have longed for them to know Christ and with their welfare in mind I sought more info on the web. What I`ve found disturbs me. Should I be disturbed? I am open to talk with folks re whats going on in your group and the need for honest communication to my friends about the consequences of joining you.

[editor]

Dear HH

You should do everything you can to get your friends out of there, if for no other reason than they would be much better off in a church with more than a dozen people!

England is somewhat far removed from George, and is far less abusive, to the point of maybe being benign, but God has not ever blessed the group there.

Plenty of other churches around, why attend that one!

Brent

[hh]

Can you fill me in on who you guys are? Is the site you run an official "Assembly" site ie.you are members in fellowship? Or are you ex-members in fellowship via this forum? I am glad of the advice you are giving and would be glad of any more info to give me a better insight.

[Toni Fuller]

Dear HH,  many of us who post here are ex-members, not all.  My advice for you is to let your friends read this web site and see the havoc & things that have taken place over the past 30 yrs and keep hidden in the closet.  I'm sure they have questions too, let them come here and ask for themselves.  I'm glad to see you're concerned and very well should be!!

[Luke Robinson]

Dear HH

You should do everything you can to get your friends out of there, if for no other reason than they would be much better off in a church with more than a dozen people!

England is somewhat far removed from George, and is far less abusive, to the point of maybe being benign, but God has not ever blessed the group there.

Plenty of other churches around, why attend that one!

Brent

Dear Brent,

Just a few observations.

So you are saying that these people would be better off in another church, because other churches have more than a dozen people.  So the Chinese Christians in China meeting in homes, should stop and join the Three Self Church, because their gathering only has six or seven people.  The mormon church has more people than we do!  Should I go join them?  That should definetly not be a reason why you leave one place and go to another.

So your gathering is blessed by the number of people that you have.  

Deuteronomy 7:7-8
The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were in more number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

God picked Israel, not because of how many people they had, or because how powerful they were.  GOD DOES NOT DEAL WITH NUMBERS.  I heard someone say,"One man with God is a majority."  So even if the gathering in England has only two people who want to serve God, He will use it and bless it.  If the Lord is there, he will bless it.  Just because it doesn't have three thousand members, and a huge cathedral, and a ten thousand dollar offering every Sunday, doesn't mean that God isn't blessing.  
"Guys, you gotta leave that place, because it only has twelve people!"

Dear HH, you should in no way be disturbed.  There is still a God in heaven and He knows all of the problems in every gathering.  When you talk to your friends in the assembly, speak with wisdom, and try the teachings whether they be true or not.  That is where you'll find your answer.  In the word of God.

A Concerned Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

[MichelleDJ]

The mormon church has more people than we do!

Define "we" - there are 1.9 billion Christians in the world, of which 4.4 million are Mormon (if you want to call them Christians, that is.)

Luke, are you purposely twisting Brent's words?  Because nit-picking really doesn't do much besides cause distraction in threads.  What Brent seemed to be saying is that a church with more than a few congregants is less dangerous than one with a more limited number.  There is less accountability in smaller groups.  (If you don't believe me, explain where all that cash went in Fullerton!)

I've experienced a hurt, frustrated lashing-out when it comes to seeing with your own eyes that an organization that you put all your faith in is not what it was supposed to be.  (Even I have experience with that.)  Be careful here, brothers, not to sling that hurt and frustration around to slap out at other people.  You won't feel any better, and neither will they.  God doesn't work that way.

HH, be disturbed.  I have never been exposed to an organization like this one.  In conversations and e-mails and posts, I've yet to read/hear anything about the organization that brings joy and freedom to someone's life.  

My recommendation to you:  Ask your friends to explain the gospel to you, as clearly as they can.  

Listen carefully.  Then gently explain the freedom in the gospel message to them.  Sadly, though, be prepared to meet a brick wall when you do.  But fear not!  God uses the most interesting ways to get messages through.

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Michelle and Brent,

Alright.  I did go a little far with the Mormon comment.  But when we are talking about numbers, you could take that a whole lot of ways.  I was using it in a specific aspect to say the gathering that I go to, and the Mormon Temple down the street.  They have hundreds of people.  The reason I said this is because I don't want HH to get the idea that you can see God blessing in a gathering by the amount of people that they have because that is not what the Bible teaches.

Secondly, I do not put my faith in an organization in a group.  I put my faith in God, in the word and in the servants that He chooses.

Lastly, how do you know that maybe the gospels will agree?  And maybe, this gathering is going by God's word?
You just don't know what God can do in a situation like that.

As I said before, HH, try the teachings.  When you hear all what is being taught, go to the word and let God show you the truth.  

Again, what is there to be disturbed about?  There is a God in heaven.  Our human resources can do nothing.  We must trust Him to lead us and not go by the seat of our pants.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson  

[MichelleDJ]

Lastly, how do you know that maybe the gospels will agree?

True dat, Luke.  I don't "know" anything.  But, upon an educated guess, I'll wager on the gospels being different.  Because if the true gospel were being preached and taught, it would be next to impossible for them (or anyone) to be ensnared in this organization for any length of time.

God is good, though!  Look what he's done so far!  

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Brent, Michelle, and Everyone reading this,

I am really sorry how I have been treating everyone tonight.  There has been a lot of sarcasm.  A lot of disrespect.  A lot of downright nastiness.(if that is a word)  And I would like to just stop it.  Right here and now.  
It does not help what is going on here, it is just pushing it the opposite way.  I would like to repent, like Brent, for being sarcastic.  I know that I have spoken about how badly people treat others on this website and here I am doing the same thing!!  Pray for me.  That I would have my speech seasoned with grace.  Thank you to all those that have brought my foolishness to my attention.  He is able.  

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

[hh]

Having heard all you have said I get the impression that many of you are smitten with  the "churchianity" bug as I was in the past. Let me explain. I read in a book called "New Wineskins" that individuals in the early church spent 95% of their time in the world.They were going about their daily work,socialising,playing sports,buying and selling etc. etc.. But through all of that they were being a testimony to the life and death of Christ.They were salt in a rotting world.They were returning to the church building and to friends with a need of prayer and to worship. If God didn`t answer who was going to supply their need. Certainly not the state. Thats what was done plus other stuff in the other 5% of their time as believers. I have also experienced what happens to believers when we live in each others pockets.To day those percentages are reversed. It`s not healthy. We are the church whether in the building or not. I am the church in my neighbourhood along with my family. I am no longer obsessed with, "full time ministry", "my ministry", impressing other believers and so on. They are all things and more that we are into when we live in eachothers pockets. We have invented "church speak". A language no one out there understands. God intends that I "get a life" and He`s offering one. Forgive me for preaching. I do hope all of you find healing for your hearts and hope for tommorrow. I will join my friends soon on a visit to their "assembly" and see for myself what gives. The last thing I want to do is shatter their faith and disillusion them. I want to see them grow. I`ll keep you posted.

[MichelleDJ]

Never, ever shatter someone's faith.  We're called to speak the truth in LOVE, and I believe that means gentle, gentle conversations.  I hope your comment wasn't directed at me re: shattering faith.  I didn't mean "go debate them."  I meant, have open communication with them, see where they stand because of what they've been taught.  Then let God use you to reach out to them with the gentle and forgiving gospel.

I agree wholeheartedly re: speaking like no one else in the world does.  To converse on this site, I've had to dredge up what I used to call PCA-speak.  (The Presbyterian Church in America has many extremely intellectual churches in StL, along with Covenant Seminary.  Words like "grace" and "justification" and "sanctification" et al become common, and it took a wonderful guy, covered in tattoos and earrings and holding a huge heart for God, to show me how silly that was.)  We are never called to throw ourselves into church buildings and hide.  I am not a Christian school teacher, I do not homeschool my son, I do not work in a church - I am out in the big bad world of finance.  And I try every single day to be a testimony to Jesus.  But do I mention Him?  No.  It's through my actions, not words.  Have I touched people's lives?  Yes.  Do they wonder why I do the things I do for them?  Yes.  And that's the groundwork.

I am a believer 100% of the time.  And I spend about 4 hours a week, at best, inside my church.  "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations..."  Those desperately in need of Jesus don't generally come to church.  They are found in book stores and coffee shops and on the street and in my office - looking for financial advice!    And that's where I meet them - where they're at.

If I go back to sounding like myself, without KJV and pompous churchspeak, can we still be friends, all?  

HH, LOVE ON your friends.  That's the best thing in the world you can do.  And tell them that Jesus wants them to "Love God, love others."  If they can live up to that challenge, they have God's heart!

[MichelleDJ]

Luke:

((((HUGS))))

-m.

[Peacefulg]

Hey hh, God will honor your labor of love.  

Lord Bless,
G

[Kimberley Tobin]

Secondly, I do not put my faith in an organization in a group.  I put my faith in God, in the word and in the servants that He chooses.

Lastly, how do you know that maybe the gospels will agree?  And maybe, this gathering is going by God's word?
You just don't know what God can do in a situation like that.

As I said before, HH, try the teachings.  When you hear all what is being taught, go to the word and let God show you the truth.  

Again, what is there to be disturbed about?  There is a God in heaven.  Our human resources can do nothing.  We must trust Him to lead us and not go by the seat of our pants.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson  

First, you say that you are putting your faith in the "servants that He (God) chooses".  It wasn't God who chose these leaders, it was George.  George put these men in power and if they did not agree with George, they were removed from power.  That is not God putting these men in power.  We all know who George has been proven to be; a wicked, evil man.  What scriptural principal applies here?  Math 7:15-20; 15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

George could only produce evil fruit, this is a scriptural principal.  These mens teachings are corrupt (ask any pastor to thoroughly research the teachings of the assembly, they will tell you it is heretical.)

Secondly, George was an expert at twisting God's word.  Just because the gatherings go by "God's word" doesn't make it doctrinally sound.  (see my first point.)

Thirdly, how much more information do you want God to give you regarding the assembly in order for you to acknowledge you are in a cult?  Yes, God is leading you, to acknowledge what those brothers and sisters have been shouting from the rooftops: GET OUT WHILE THERE IS STILL TIME, GOD IS NOT IN THIS, IT IS WICKED FROM THE ROOT.  Request Brian Steele's written critique of the assembly after he was successfully deprogrammed out of the assembly.

Begin to use critical thinking and do some research (not the written material provided you by the assembly booktable - but research regarding cults - it will be eye opening.)  Then talk with people, not just bb, but on the phone, in person, speak with people and find out their perspective.  

We love you!  That's why we're here.

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Kimberly,

Thank you for your advice, but I think we are coming at this the wrong way.  You like to use verses like "false teacher",  "wicked", "evil", and "corrupt".  I thank you for your opinion.  
You are thorougly convinced that George and all the teachings can be described by those four lovely adjectives above.  Let us not be so hasty in what we call others.  You will stand for what you say.  And if they are untruthful, God will know.  

George has fallen.  He is only human.  But beware as it says in I Corinthians 10:2-
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Now I don't agree with everything with what George has said over the past years, but I believe that many of the things he said, of which he might have gotten from other people and the Bible, should still be used and in no way should be thrown out.  It is what God has shown to me.  

So God has been leading me to acknowledge what everyone has been saying here on this web site?  No doubt.  But the thing is, HE HAS LED ME HERE TO THIS GATHERING.  In this "God-forsaken place".  Why do I have total peace about being in this gathering but you cannot?  We have our own lives to live before God, and if we seperate on where God leads us, then so be it.  But it would be quite unwise to just jump out because of all those lovely adjectives that you used in your letter.  

No doubt I am seeking guidance.  Of course I am using critical thinking.  Have all the things I've been saying just utterly foolish and ungodly?  

THE THING IS: IF GOD WANTS ME TO MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE, I WILL GO RIGHT NOW.  IF HE WANTS ME TO MOVE TO THE BAPTIST CHURCH DOWN THE STREET, THEN SO BE IT.  THE QUESTION IS NOT WHETHER I AM WILLING OR NOT, BUT WHERE GOD HAS CALLED ME.  

To some, this is a den of demons.  To others, it is a corrupt, god-forsaken cult.  But to me, it is the Lord's house.  And every time I go there, He speaks to me.

And you might say, Luke, you're being decieved.  I know where I stand, and it is on the foundation of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  And frankly, you can say anything you would like, but until I lose God's peace at the place where I am at, I am not going anywhere.  I thank you for respecting my ability to get God's mind.

I am very happy right now.  I have total peace in what the Lord is doing.  Maybe some others should too.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson