ASSEMBLY HISTORY and why it is important.

[outdeep]

Hey!  Watch it!  WHS is our local high school (Watauga High School).

-Dave
Deep Gap, NC

[vernecarty]

"I think perhaps the point that Marcia was making is that George Geftakys was never interested in the truth."

Verne, how do you know what GG was thinking in 1969?  For that matter, how could you know what ANYONE what thinking at any time?

Obviously we cannot. I was invoking the Biblical principle of sowing and reaping - by their fruits ye shall know them. The fruit of a man's life will tell you much about his thoughts. As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. We know that long before the start of the assemblies George Geftakys had demonstrated himself to be a man of deep moral flaws. At the time the assemblies were started by him we know that he was in a state of spiritual rebellion from constituted local church authority. It seems to me his spiritual condition makes what he was thinking a moot point, do you not agree?
The bitter harvest we saw this year was hardly borne of corrupt seed sown in 2003. Some of the illicit relationships continued over many, many years. The physical abuse and frightful moral turpitude in his immediate family was decades old. So we know that he started his so called ministry in a state of gross defilement, and continued it in the same vein. The full and public flowering of sin in the life of a professed believer means that God's private and winsome entreaties for repentance by His Spirit have been spurned and spurned repeatedly. Tom you and I both know this to be spiritual reality - the corruption and sorrow visited by this man on so many should in no way still be a surprise to any of us in view of what we now know about him for the Word of God predicts it! What we have seen about the man is the tip of the iceberg - I am sure of it. In fact the only biblically satisfactory explanation for the delay in his judgment is that his iniquity is not yet full. His present conduct seems to in every way confirm this conclusion.

I met GG when he was 41 years old.  He had been a Christian for over 20 years.  Was he ever interested in the truth in those 20 years?  I think he was.

When I met GG for the first time he was doing evangelistic work with international students.

When George's kids were little he used to go to Salt Lake City frequently to give evangelistic talks in a mission to Mormons.

I spent many, many hours with GG in the early days before the assembly began, and I believe that he really had a desire to serve God.  There were times when the man really helped me in my walk with Christ.

I think that what happened to GG is something like what happened to Saul or Solomon.  Look at Solomon in the beginning, and then at the end.  What a tragedy.  

Evil was allowed into his life.  It was in small things at first, but then it got worse and worse until it became a disaster for him, and for his whole nation.

Tom this analogy has sparked a relentless train of thought. We now know many claims made by George Geftakys were false. Recent evidence has come to light that calls into serious question his often repeated claims to having served in the armed forces as a marine. His recent statements about the reasons for his excomminication confirm him an incorrigible liar. Are you so confident that any claims he made so many years ago regarding his spiritual condition are believeable?
The comparison to Saul is thought-provoking. While it is true that Samuel was commanded to annoint Saul, the ultimate unfolding of the narrative of his life demonstrated that he was never God's choice. He was what the people wanted and so that is what God gave them. They lusted after a king to rule over them like the nations and effectively rejected the Theocracy instituted under Moses. They rejected God as their king. The prarallels with Saul are even more stark than I realised, including Sauls awful descent ultimately into the terrible sin of witchcraft. (Strange that George of all people should have accused Margaret Irons of such a thing).
Has anyone ever explored the possibility that just as in some ways Saul was God's judgment against the nation for its wantoness, George was a direct judgement against the idolatrous, man-exalting tendencies in some of His people?
The thought makes me shudder. Some people are still following the man! I have always considered him an instrument of the devil himself. My thoughts regarding this man have very much been influenced by C.S. Lewis' observation in "That Hideous Strength"

When wicked and dark spirits are finished playing with their human toys, they always break them...

I need to think some more about this...

"The theology he contructed (granted though partly plagiarized from many sources) had at the outset, the intention of bringing many into wicked bondage and making merchandise of the spiritually gullible."

Again, I disagree, Verne.  If you read PB books, especially by ones that were partial rapturists like Pember, Govette or Lang, you will see that there was VERY little if anything new at all in GG's ideas.

Perhaps at the end, when the 7th day creation of man idea appeared, or if Tim's wonky ideas about the incarnation of Christ came from GG, he was charting his own course.  But not in most of what he taught.

I believe that the turning point in GG's heart came as a result of the false mysticism he picked up from his Pentecostal beginnings and his PB mentors.  This, in my opinion, was his Achilles heel.

He began to believe that he had special understanding and insight, that was not shared by lesser men.  So as  the years went by he reached a point of total exclusion of other viewpoints.  He couldn't/wouldn't associate with anyone on a personal level, and reacted to anyone who questioned him as if they were a threat.

The result...delusion.  "I am the servant of God for this generation". "I am the successor of the apostle Paul".  "I am a priest after the order of Melchezidek".  And so on and on.

When I went over to Steve Iron's house, (next door) to tell him I was not returning to the Assembly, I wanted to condense my whole reason into one statement.  So, I told him, "This ministry is based upon a false mysticism".  

Verne, that's my view on it.  I don't buy the "grand conspiracy" theory at all.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

 
He did have the remarkable tendency to use the material of others without attribution. I remember being so impressed with one of seminars "The Paradise of God" only to discover later that He got lots of his ideas form Andrew Juke's "Types in Genesis". It is so funny that I just happened to spot a copy of the book on his desk during one of my Fullerton visits. I guess I would still have to conclude that even if the course he embarked on was not ruthlessly premeditated, he was at the outset nonetheless in a state of, at the very least, deception. He had failed to take into account that most fundamental of spiritual principles:

Be not deceived, God in not mocked; whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap!"

Verne

p.s.
You certainly may be right that initially George thought he could entirely escape his past and start over. Problem is the important lesson he failed to learn decades ago is still the one that now eludes him    - for there to be forgiveness and cleansing, there must be confession!

[M2]

Marcia,

Regarding your comment about it being difficult to see things through the lens of "did God raise up this ministry".

I am not much of a mystic.  So, my first reaction to a question like this is, "Is this a real question?"

In other words, I am not sure that we can legitimately speak of ministries in this way.

First of all, everything happens under the sovereign rule of God.  That, of course, is a very difficult concept when we think of evil men, actions and events in His world.  How works is a very real question that I don't think has been satisfactorily answered.

Secondly, where does scripture teach that ministries, (what I do or my group does), are "raised up".  

One could say, "the ministry of Martin Luther was certainly raised up by God".  Does that mean everything Martin Luther taught and did was "raised up by God".  

The fellow did us a world of good, but he did some pretty bad stuff too, and taught some pretty wonky ideas as well.

So what's the verdict?  Raised up by God or not?

Beats me.  I don't think it is a legitimate question.

It happened, and it produced result x, y, and z.

We have to decide what our response will be.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Tom,

A lot of the conclusions I have come to, came from putting pieces of the puzzle together, which then enabled me see the whole picture. Albeit, the picture I am seeing is possibly still incorrect so I am still open to discussion on assembly matters. However it was this BB and the website which helped me to put the pieces together.

Before July 1st, 2003, I posted and inquired annonymously, but I was actively involved since the end of March, though I had been reading it since January (and posted infrequently as a guest then).

The picture I see of the Geftakys assembly system:
It is a false religious system, similar to the system of the scribes and Pharisees.

My response:
to repent from my involvement
to find healing, and to help with the healing process
to 'not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;' Ephesians 5:11

Unfortunately, many of those still "in" see this as a personal attack on them. I do not fault those who sincerely followed GG and his system before his excomm.., except where they knew better and did not do anything about it and have not repented to date. But I do fault them now for not repenting and proving themselves clear in the matter of their involvement in the assembly system.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Mark Kisla]

For context sake I post my 'exit' email letter first:

Dear saints,

I was hoping for an opportunity to meet with various ones  individually, but since it will not work out for me to do so I am  sending this email to share with you my reasons for not  participating in the assembly meetings .

I still love the saints who remain dearly. I do not have any offences  to settle with anyone. And this is not about GG's sin, but about our  condition as ones who have sat under the ministry of a master  deceiver for the past 20+ years.

I am thinking along these lines with regards to assembly matters.

George's life is a quintessential lie.  He postured as if he had  advanced degrees and knowledge, when in fact he merely  completed a four year bachelor's degree in just over 6 years.
He pretended to be a great servant of Jesus Christ, when in fact he  was disciplined in several churches for adultery, prior to being led  to start his "ministry."
No lie is of the truth.  We know who the father of lies is; Jesus  identified him as Satan.

This state effected his ministry in the broad sense, ie his preaching,  his counsel, his direction, his demeanor, his example. That which  he preached had enough of the truth to convince us that what we  were getting from George was actually 'meat'. Like so much of what  he taught, the grain of truth it sometimes contained made it doubly  lethal.

The most striking example of George's demonic energy is the fact  that we actually thought we were following a godly man, even  Christ.  The fact is, we are/were deceived and God delivered us  from George, even though many are/were not willing for it.  God did  it out of mercy.

On January 1st, 2003 we were convinced of George's leadership as  being from the Lord, and then the moment after reading the letter  of excommunication we were convinced otherwise. The question  arises as to how much spiritual discernment do we possess after  being subject to George Geftakys' ministry for the past 20+ years. I  would even go so far as to say that we have grieved the Holy Spirit  by subjecting ourselves to the deception of George's teaching, such  that our spritual judgement is clouded. I am speaking in general  terms here, because there will always be individual exceptions to  the rule.

George Geftakys has had his hand in this assembly to such a  degree that the testimony has been tainted by his influence. When I  was saved and came out to the meetings I knew the Lord's  presence was here, but I cannot say that of this assembly anymore.  George's influence has slowly but surely lead us to the condition we  are in today.

If we humbly accept the Lord's correction in our lives then He can  work. Otherwise, He will have to take drastic action to bring us to  our senses, OR allow us to continue in our deception.

Though many of us were 'sincerely' deceived, we still run the risk of  this:
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy  in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your  name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I  never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'  Mat 7:22-23

I suggest that we consider the option of taking six weeks off, or  even the more drastic action of disbanding and seeking outside  Christian counsel.

Lord bless,
Marcia

The brothers had a General brother's meeting and concluded thus:

The brothers met on Sunday afternoon, July 6th, 2003 to discuss the contents of, and our response to, the recent letter that Marcia M sent to most of the saints who gather in fellowship at our local meetings. Our conclusions as before God during that meeting are as follows:

"Let God be found true though every man be found a liar". Rm 3:3-4

The lie and deception that was George's life does not mean that God has also lied to us in light of our manner of gathering and our practice locally as a church in Ottawa.

We do not agree with Marcia that it necessarily follows that because George practiced deception that we are currently deceived in our gathering together unto the Lord or impaired in our ability to presently be led by the Holy Spirit.

We believe that the pattern for dealing with failure in a new testament church is laid out in Revelation chapters 2 and 3 regarding the seven churches of Asia. In those passages we are told that the remedy is to repent of any specific sins - not to take six weeks off or disband or seek outside counseling.

We believe that we have already taken specific steps to make the changes that we think the Lord would have us make and will continue to do so as we see the Lord leading us. We are also encouraging the Lord's people and particularly the brethren in our midst to follow the example of the Bereans in Acts to "search the scriptures daily to see if these things are so". We believe that God still can, and still is, teaching us through His word, the Bible. We believe that we are already getting regular outside perspective through the reading of godly Christian literature and books from a variety of sources as well as from individual and corporate exposure to the recorded teachings of various Christian ministries and also our normal contact with believers from other Christian fellowships. We believe that this provides us with sufficient opportunity to compare what we have believed to what others who were never associated with George's ministry are teaching.

We do not think that we have grieved away the Holy Spirit from our midst. We think that He always responds to repentance and faith and is continuing to do so. We believe that we are continuing to see the fruit of His working in our midst and that we can continue to grow in our relationship with the Lord and increase to the glory of God as we continue with Him in humility and faith in Jesus Christ.

We believe that everybody has the liberty to choose where they will gather together with other Christians without outside influence. Marcia has chosen to stop meeting with us. Although we disagree with her reasons for leaving and are saddened by her choice, it is not our desire to try to influence her to do otherwise. We trust that those who choose to continue to gather together in our midst will be afforded the same courtesy.

My question: Any comments?

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough". How does one remove the leaven from the dough after it has 'permeated' the whole lump?

Marcia

Marcia,
I would be curious to know if you became involved in a new church would you still be welcome to visit or periodically participate in chapter summary, or if you came to worship, would you be allowed to partake in breaking bread ? If yes,I would say theres a change. Would you be free to speak what you truly think in a chapter summary. If yes, I would say theres change, but decades of beliefs and habits don't change quickly, if anything it's too easy to fall back into the same old rut.

[Sebastian Andrew]

Tom Maddux:
I think your comments are best taken w/o Verne's commentary on them. The Christian world has had enough conspiracy theories lately. George is starting to become too big. Bigger than he should.

[M2]

Marcia,
I would be curious to know if you became involved in a new church would you still be welcome to visit or periodically participate in chapter summary, or if you came to worship, would you be allowed to partake in breaking bread ? If yes,I would say theres a change. Would you be free to speak what you truly think in a chapter summary. If yes, I would say theres change, but decades of beliefs and habits don't change quickly, if anything it's too easy to fall back into the same old rut.

Those who have left and are involved in a new church, are welcome to do all of the above. My particular situation is different, however.

Marcia

[Oscar]

Dave----

From what basis due you derive an opinion  that Tom Maddux or Mark Campbell are psychologically healthy? Both of these gentlemen went over the edge long ago, and should, in my opinion, be locked up.  --just kidding.

Your points are well taken. Thanks for your posts.

Oh no!

Joe has figured me out at last.

Thomas Maddux (aka Napoleon)

[Sebastian Andrew]

The Christian world has had enough conspiracy theories lately.

...ignore everything Verne says huh Sebastian? You can't possibly be serious...this is after-all a free and open forum - ask Brian...
 Never said that. In fact, most of your other posts I read. Many of them are some of the best.

George is starting to become too big. Bigger than he should.

Geftakys could not possibly be made any bigger than he was in the assemblies - how the mighty have fallen!
What did one great philospher say about people forgetting history being doomed to repeat it...?
Verne

He has fallen.
You can call me Sebastian, Verne.  
Respectfully,
Sebastian  

[M2]

Marcia,
I would be curious to know if you became involved in a new church would you still be welcome to visit or periodically participate in chapter summary, or if you came to worship, would you be allowed to partake in breaking bread ? If yes,I would say theres a change. Would you be free to speak what you truly think in a chapter summary. If yes, I would say theres change, but decades of beliefs and habits don't change quickly, if anything it's too easy to fall back into the same old rut.

Mark K

I have been thinking about the change that has happened in the Ottawa assembly. I can list most of them:

'Acceptance' of non-assemblyite Christians
Shorter meetings
Reading books by other (ie other than the book table) Christian authors
Watching video taped preaching of other (ie other than assemblyite) Christian men (but then we used to do this before as well)
A sister leads the H.S. Bible Study even though there is a brother who can do it

The above mentioned list is external. The internal condition of change becomes evident when a difficult situation arises. Do they 'react' in the same former 'spiritually' abusive manner or not? The answer to that question is: they still do.

A little Ottawa Assembly History is in order here.

Here are a bunch of Christians who sincerely desire to repent and serve the Lord. For the past 20 - 30 years most of these Christians have been involved with Geftakysism. Ottawa claims that because of 'distance' from Fullerton, we were not as bad as those assemblies who were closer to Fullerton. But, in fact, Ottawa is closer to Fullerton, because Omaha was our stepping stone to it. Many will admit that we almost always did things the way it was done in Omaha; and everyone knows 'who' Omaha religiously followed. Don't forget, there are always individual instances of exceptions to what I am stating, ie I am relating this account in a 'generally speaking' manner.

About ten years ago a number of 'original' assemblyites left fellowship. They left because they were unable to perform to the 'rigorous' pace required of them and possibly for other reasons. Upon leaving they discovered 'Churches the Abuse' and attempted to warn us. We treated them as 'disgruntled' and ignored their warnings. However some brothers, who were living in a brother's training home, were reading a book about cults and concluded that the Ottawa assembly is a cult. They also decided that they would not leave but stay in order to 'help' those who were still "in". One who 'helped' sure helped us to 'toe the line' and promote assemblyism very religiously and faithfully.

Fast-forward to GGs excommunication. The assembly dis-associates with GG and his ministry. We become as autonomous as we believe it is possible to be. We assure our LBs that we do not want them to step down. The brothers have some closed brethren meetings and make some decisions about changes to assembly life. Some sisters meet to pray. And so the brothers have decided - case closed.

Here are a bunch of Christians who have spiritually abused and been spiritually abused, despite the warnings that came. These Christians 'repented' after GGs excomm..  God forgives them/us, but does He forget? These brethren are not fit to lead and run a gathering of Christians. They/we need a period of time to heal from our abuse. I do not believe that God had led them to 'start a new work', because they have proven themselves unfaithful for the past ?? years. They cannot say that no one warned them either. The proof is that they 'react' in their former manner of 'reacting' when faced with a challenge. They have not 'gotten honest', hence the healing process cannot begin. I say ditto for Annandale and possibly Placentia and most of the other existing assemblies on the North American continent. At this point I would suggest dis-banding; forget the 6 weeks off. They've had 9 months.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Oscar]

Marcia,

Have you thought of mailing this to the folks in your old assembly?

Thomas Maddux

[M2]

Marcia,

Have you thought of mailing this to the folks in your old assembly?

Thomas Maddux

Tom,

I would love to, but most are not open to honest inquiry and discussion. My 'mass' emails are very few and limited. If you read the reply to my exit email, you might recognize that it was not an honest reply &/or investigation of the points I address in my email. But rather it was an opportunity for the 'assembly point of view as decided by the brethren' to be presented to the assembly.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Mark Kisla]

[quote author=Marcia  The internal condition of change becomes evident when a difficult situation arises. Do they 'react' in the same former 'spiritually' abusive manner or not? The answer to that question is: they still do.

Lord bless,
Marcia

Marcia,
I believe this. How can they not help but to revert back to a conditioned behavior. You will give into temptation if you have the opportunity to remove yourself from it and don't. It is  arrogant to think you are strong enough.

Mark K

[Mark Kisla]

Mark K

I have been thinking about the change that has happened in the Ottawa assembly. I can list most of them:

'Acceptance' of non-assemblyite Christians
Shorter meetings
Reading books by other (ie other than the book table) Christian authors
Watching video taped preaching of other (ie other than assemblyite) Christian men (but then we used to do this before as well)
A sister leads the H.S. campus Bible Study even though there is a brother who can do it

The above mentioned list is external. The internal condition of change becomes evident when a difficult situation arises. Do they 'react' in the same former 'spiritually' abusive manner or not? The answer to that question is: they still do.


Here are a bunch of Christians who have spiritually abused and been spiritually abused, despite the warnings that came. These Christians 'repented' after GGs excomm..  God forgives them/us, but does He forget? These brethren are not fit to lead and run a gathering of Christians. They/we need a period of time to heal from our abuse. I do not believe that God had led them to 'start a new work', because they have proven themselves unfaithful for the past ?? years. They cannot say that no one warned them either. The proof is that they 'react' in their former manner of 'reacting' when faced with a challenge. They have not 'gotten honest', hence the healing process cannot begin. I say ditto for Annandale and possibly Placentia and most of the other existing assemblies on the North American continent. At this point I would suggest dis-banding; forget the 6 weeks off. They've had 9 months.

Lord bless,
Marcia

Marcia,
I think the same mentality is here in STL with those who are still meeting.
I recently visited a brother who is still meeting here and I will always consider a friend. They are having a rough time with ex members who are calling and urging them to leave, it offends them and the comment was made, 'you really know who your friends are'. My response was that a good friend would take the time to call and tell you that they think you are making a mistake.
We also discussed what he and others felt were the wounds/lack of respect LBs received from departing saints; the wounds/lack of respect that an LBs kid received from this website.(but he personally has never read the bb)
I told him that anyone that was part of the geftakys system was wounded, whether a big shot or a nobody and that the manner in which this LB kid regularly behaved on the bb was rude.
 What  grieves me is that some don't want to face the whole truth because it will crush their belief that the assembly was God's one true testimony here on earth.

Mark K

[al Hartman]

Quote from Mark Kisla:
       They are having a rough time with ex members who are calling and urging them to leave, it offends them and the comment was made, 'you really know who your friends are'. My response was that a good friend would take the time to call and tell you that they think you are making a mistake.
       We also discussed what he and others felt were the wounds/lack of respect LBs received from departing saints; the wounds/lack of respect that an LBs kid received from this website...

   

Mark,
     Faithful are the wounds of a friend...  Pr.27:6

     GG & others used to "use" this verse when they were "wounding" saints for disobeying, or acting independently, or questioning the leadership.  Their point was to convince us that they were acting on God's behalf, as our "friends," when they imposed "discipline" upon us.
     It was only one of countless such misapplications of scripture, but i bring it to mind to make two points:

     Abuses cannot invalidate the Word of God:  the passage means exactly what it says, and saints who are "wounding" their brethren in the assemblies by shining the Light of Truth into their darkness are acting faithfully.

     Those who still abide under the shroud of assembly darkness are accustomed to hearing, and believing, the scriptures wrongly applied.  Because they misunderstand our words and intentions is all the more reason to increase our prayer for and testimony toward  effecting their deliverance.

Quote from Mark Kisla:
       What  grieves me is that some don't want to face the whole truth because it will crush their belief that the assembly was God's one true testimony here on earth.

   

     Some don't know what they want and have difficulty recognizing the Truth.  They have been taught that the assembly is the focal point of God's attention in our age; that if you want to find, to know, to love & to serve Christ, you must do so in the context of the assembly.  Is it then any wonder that they fear to lose/leave the assembly?  To those who believe what was taught, the assembly and God are inseparable.
     To our minds, their recovery may seem impossible, but with God all things are possible...

Quote from Verne Carty:
       I am happy to report that after meeting with Samuel Ochenjele of Nigeria this week-end, that he remains a stalwart sevant of Jeusis Christ and a man of true integrity.
       Pray for Samuel. He will be traveling extensively and meeting with many of the men formerly in leadership.
       Pray that he would find grace to speak the truth in love.
His great burden of  heart is to comfort the Lord's flock, and to see restoration and recovery whrerever possible.
       He now feels a freedom and sanction he never knew while serving under the tyrannical oversight of George Geftakys. The disaster that ensued was anticipated by many.
       Pray for this true servant of Jesus Christ.
Verne

   

    Thanks, Verne, for the encouraging update, and for your efforts in prayer and service.
     Saints, let's pray!
   

Quote from Verne Carty:
There were some that stood for righteousness.
George Geftakys steadfastly refused to be entreated.
I am not now at liberty to go into any detail but those men know who they are.
I want to say that they have not done God's people a service by their silence. The entire story should be told. There are many who would think very differently of the course of events if they knew the entire story.

   

     If the above describes you, whether closely or remotely, you have taken a courageous step by reading here:  Please honor Christ by casting all your care upon Him and posting here also.  Your confession will bring relief to your soul, and your testimony may be to many the means of release from bondage.  We are waiting to welcome you and to stand with you in your recovery.

al Hartman

[M2]

Marcia,
I think the same mentality is here in STL with those who are still meeting.
I recently visited a brother who is still meeting here and I will always consider a friend. They are having a rough time with ex members who are calling and urging them to leave, it offends them and the comment was made, 'you really know who your friends are'. My response was that a good friend would take the time to call and tell you that they think you are making a mistake.

I personally know all of those still left in STL and agree that the brethren are very dear and thus it makes it difficult to post a 'negative' comment about them.
Why are they 'offended'? (touchy sensitive??) Whatever happened to the 'rhinocerous' skin that they boasted they possessed?
These are the ones who were leaders, (maybe not the one you met) who were committed and involved in the work. They cared for the sheep. It is their opportunity to open discussion with those who are calling them and demonstrate their 'care for the sheep'.
The leadership here is not in the habit of gettting both sides of the story. They 'side with' those who are their friends and accuse you of 'trying to justify yourself' if you attempt to 'enlighten' them on a different perspective. (BTW this is still happening - after they have repented).

We also discussed what he and others felt were the wounds/lack of respect LBs received from departing saints; the wounds/lack of respect that an LBs kid received from this website.(but he personally has never read the bb)
I told him that anyone that was part of the geftakys system was wounded, whether a big shot or a nobody and that the manner in which this LB kid regularly behaved on the bb was rude.

I agree that the LBK was rude and if he was a 'chip off the old block' then it might give and indication of the true condition of the LB (this is mere speculation on my part since I did not know the LB except to greet him at MWS).
I do not agree with some of the other conclusions made on this BB about the LBK re. his hacking into other people's user accounts &/or his penning posts on behalf of another. He would have to be veerry 'computer literate' to do that.

What  grieves me is that some don't want to face the whole truth because it will crush their belief that the assembly was God's one true testimony here on earth.

Mark K

Yes; this is ditto for Ottawa. The AKs(including mine) and especially the LBKs have a very difficult time with this. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Lord bless,
Marcia