Spiritual Oppression

[Andrea Denner]

I just moved this from very concerned to a new thread because I want to see how people respond to this.

Many terms have been tossed around such as "idolatry", "deception", "vast gulf between the sides", etc.  I wanted to attempt to pull these together into what I've been seeing.  Pray and bear with me as you read this.  I intend on giving examples.  I'm not claiming to be an expert.  This is my opinion.

There was/is a blanket of spiritual oppression/deception over many of those involved in this ministry.  This is obviously occurring to varying degrees due to either the close proximity to George himself or the proximity to the epicenter of his activity (to borrow the use of this phrase from a friend) [Didn't you all in some places in the Midwest wonder why it was so different in CA?]  Before I address the question of "How could this happen?"  I'd like to, first of all, state why I think that this is in actuality what I am seeing.

    I've heard more than one person say, "I feel like I've been in a
    fog for 20+ years"  (What do you think that fog is folks?)

    The seeming "vast gulf" between those who SEE the problems
    and those who DON'T SEE.  When, by the grace of God, you come
    out from under this, you have two reactions:

        1.  WHY DOESN'T EVERYONE SEE THIS?

        2.  HOW COULD I HAVE BEEN SO FOOLISH?  (I definitely had both of
            these thoughts)  There is a reason for this and it's not because
            we are all idiots (although maybe you might say that of me).  The
            reason is that when you "come out of it" you don't recognize the
            spiritual element of it, which leads to not understanding the
            blindness that has and still does ensue.  [Before you think that I
            am excusing anyone's personal behavior, read on.  I am NOT
            going to excuse my, or anyone else's behavior]

Now for the, "How could this happen?"  In one way or another we have committed idolatry.  Don't get defensive...here is how idolatry was perpetrated:
      1.  Actually putting George on a pedestal and/or doing everything he
          said.
      2.  Idolizing the "system" and saying this is the only place that God is
          working (If you don't believe me, just ask an assembly kid who
          has left and says "I just couldn't see God anywhere but the
          'assembly')  They had to have learned this somewhere!
      3.  Even if we didn't idolize these things, we stood mesmerized and
          allowed George to berate people and other churches, among
          other things, or allowed the system to be perpetuated in our
            midst.

There is a SPIRITUAL battle going on.  Please read Ephesians 6:12 (I like the NAS version of this the best)

One final thing along these lines....I realize that there could be exceptions to this, but only a few.  Just remember that to some degree, large or very small, we have been taught by a man who has been living in open and unconfessed sin (according to the unedited excommunication letter) for the last 20 YEARS.  And some have alleged that it has been for the entire existence of this ministry.  
I AGREE that God has worked in individual lives in great ways.  This is because God's Word was CONTINUALLY considered.  The purity of God and His Word overrides the impurity of any ministry.

I'm not telling you to agree with me.  I'm only asking you to consider and pray about what I am saying.

(this post was included in an email that we sent out to our friends (that we have emails for!) that included a letter as to where we stand right now.  If you are a friend of ours -- or an enemy, or just interested -- and did not receive one, please email me, and I will send it to you right away)

Andrea Denner
 
 
 

[BenJapheth]

Yes, Andrea!  When the grace of God hits, it's like the fog has been lifted!    Oh, that they might see... We need a Tsunami of Grace

Many terms have been tossed around such as "idolatry", "deception", "vast gulf between the sides", etc.  I wanted to attempt to pull these together into what I've been seeing.

There was/is a blanket of spiritual oppression/deception over many of those involved in this ministry.  This is obviously occurring to varying degrees due to either the close proximity to George himself or the proximity to the epicenter of his activity. Didn't you in the Midwest wonder why it was so different in CA?

    I've heard more than one person say, "I feel like I've been in a
    fog for 20+ years"  ...What do you think that fog is folks?

    The seeming "vast gulf" between those who SEE the problems
    and those who DON'T SEE.  When, by the grace of God, you come
    out from under this, you have two reactions:

        1.  WHY DOESN'T EVERYONE SEE THIS?

        2.  HOW COULD I HAVE BEEN SO FOOLISH?  (I definitely had both of
            these thoughts)  There is a reason for this and it's not because
            we are all idiots (although maybe you might say that of me).  The
            reason is that when you "come out of it" you don't recognize the
            spiritual element of it, which leads to not understanding the
            blindness that has and still does ensue.  [Before you think that I
            am excusing anyone's personal behavior, read on.  I am NOT
            going to excuse my, or anyone else's behavior]

Now for the, "How could this happen?"  In one way or another we have committed idolatry.  Don't get defensive...here is how idolatry was perpetrated:

      1.  Actually putting George on a pedestal and/or doing everything he
          said.
      2.  Idolizing the "system" and saying this is the only place that God is
          working (If you don't believe me, just ask an assembly kid who
          has left and says "I just couldn't see God anywhere but the
          'assembly')  They had to have learned this somewhere!
      3.  Even if we didn't idolize these things, we stood mesmerized and
          allowed George to berate people and other churches, among
          other things, or allowed the system to be perpetuated in our
            midst.

There is a SPIRITUAL battle going on.  Please read Ephesians 6:12

One final thing along these lines....I realize that there could be exceptions to this, but only a few.  Just remember that to some degree, large or very small, we have been taught by a man who has been living in open and unconfessed sin (according to the unedited excommunication letter) for the last 20 YEARS.  And some have alleged that it has been for the entire existence of this ministry.  

I AGREE that God has worked in individual lives in great ways.  This is because God's Word was CONTINUALLY considered.  The purity of God and His Word overrides the impurity of any ministry

[imme]

Andrea:

Thank you for your posting.  I hope your family finds a place of fellowship where the Lord is truly glorified.  I am still in the process of looking.  I am enjoying Rock of Ages Church in Maywood.  

[editor]

Dear IMME

Please post under your real name!  If people do not use their real names, we will have to delete your account.

You may lurk as you are, but not post.

Brent
OOPPPSS!!!

MY BAD!!!!  I replied to this on the 10 most recent message screen, and did'nt see your signature.  You are doing great, I put my foot in my mouth.  MY FAULT!!

Brent

[Andrea Denner]

Cheryl (and anyone else interested),
Ooh, I think that I need to clarify things here.  Joe and I sent out a letter to state where we stand at this point, and it included this post.  I can send it to you if you are interested.
Joe and I are taking a “sabbatical” if you will.  We need to see how the Lord is working in other places.  If He wants us to stay in one of those places, we will.  If He wants us to start meeting simply again in our home, we will.
The reason is that we realize the spiritual implication of being taught by a man living in open and unconfessed sin for the entire time that we have been here.  We know that not all that we were taught was bad (I can name quite a few brothers here with excellent ministry) and we didn’t always apply the bad, but the influence cannot be denied.  We want to make sure that there are no fragments of bad teaching left.  It was also important to us to be completely disassociated with the Geftakys ministry (at this point being the gatherings that are trying to move forward together as an organism).  We know that there are changes, good changes, being made in some of the places, but not all.
Joe is going to step back from preaching for a while (even though I think that his ministry is excellent, and very grace and liberty filled for the last few years)…I’m sure he will still have opportunity to minister in different ways for the time being.
I am saddened to think that some think that this is giving up on the Lord.  I have gotten that drift from a few…but only a few.  I believe that the Lord can do ANYTHING.  Yet, we know that when someone comes in our midst and gets saved, we don’t just give them a Bible and say “God will teach you”…we know that God uses individuals to teach sometimes (discipling, mentoring, whatever you want to call it)  It’s time for us (Joe and I) to have some new mentors for a little while.
The Lord will still work in our lives even if we don’t do a weekly Bible study for a while. He will still work in our lives even if we never did a chapter summary again, although I think that it is a good way to study ….except for those name chapters where everybody’s chapter summary is like “I really saw how the Lord remembers us all by name, and how special we are”…oops, I digress.
Anyway, Cheryl, we would love to see you sometime soon and hear what the Lord is doing with you!  Please give us a call.  If you don’t remember our number, either email or PM me.
Love ya,
Andrea

[BenJapheth]

Andrea, looks like you guys have a new start!

Very, very exciting!  I commend you in the Lord.  Your at the beginning a new and wonderful adventure.  Dance! Dance! Dance! The shackles are off!

God Bless You Both!

Your Kansas Pals, Ann & Chuck

[Andrea Denner]

Chuck,
You are decidedly a dramatic man    I don't even have to wonder if you really are dramatic in real life.  Now you can draw a picture of us dancing on your whiteboard for Ann.  
Andrea

[CathyG]

Andrea,

I am so glad that you and Joe are "out" and refreshed to read your post.   I'm not sure if you remember us (Kyla is my daughter), we moved to California shortly after you guys got involved in Forest Park.  Anyway, I was so relieved when the fog lifted for me almost 3 years ago and I'm still getting my life in order.  It amazes me the damage that 'idolatry' can do in the lives of sincere men and women.  But sin is deadly and grace is life giving.  Whatever our reactions are to what is going on with the Geftakys gang God is still in control and will ultimate free those who ask Him to reveal the truth.   He's in the business of lifting the fog, removing the scales or anything else that is in the way (especially doing chapter summaries on name chapters...yuk... ).

Cathy Goyette

[M2]

Shin,

Have you seen Voyager episode #203 Infinite Regress:
http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/VOY/episode/104014.html
http://www.st-hypertext.com/voy-5/infinite.html

Some comments (paraphrased):

Seven suffers from "Borg multiple personality disorder".  This condtion is triggered by a functioning "vinculum" left in the debris of a destroyed Borg vessel. The vinculum is supposed to suppress individuality in Borg drones.  As it regulates and organizing their thought patterns for maximum efficiency in the hive mind, it is supposed to "bring order to chaos."  The signal from the vinculum causes Seven's brain implants to malfunction such that she begins to hear the voices of other individuals the Borg had assimilated.  Her problem can only be solved if the vinculum is shut down.

Chakotay says, "You can take the drone out of the Borg, but you can't take the Borg out of the drone."
Seven says, "When I first left the collective I could not stand the silence of not hearing the other voices.  Now that I am individual, I cannot stand the voices of the collective."
Doctor's analysis at end, "The voices are dormant, but will always be there."

The vinculum triggers the revival of those memories.

Janeway, the good shepherd, is willing to jeopardize the quick destruction of the Borg collective by shutting down the vinculum in order to save one of her crew members.  (The vinculum is infected with a virus that destroys Borg drones.)

Marcia

[shinchy]

Shin,

Have you seen Voyager episode #203 Infinite Regress:
http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/VOY/episode/104014.html
http://www.st-hypertext.com/voy-5/infinite.html

Some comments (paraphrased):

Seven suffers from "Borg multiple personality disorder".  This condtion is triggered by a functioning "vinculum" left in the debris of a destroyed Borg vessel. The vinculum is supposed to suppress individuality in Borg drones.  As it regulates and organizing their thought patterns for maximum efficiency in the hive mind, it is supposed to "bring order to chaos."  The signal from the vinculum causes Seven's brain implants to malfunction such that she begins to hear the voices of other individuals the Borg had assimilated.  Her problem can only be solved if the vinculum is shut down.

Chakotay says, "You can take the drone out of the Borg, but you can't take the Borg out of the drone."
Seven says, "When I first left the collective I could not stand the silence of not hearing the other voices.  Now that I am individual, I cannot stand the voices of the collective."
Doctor's analysis at end, "The voices are dormant, but will always be there."

The vinculum triggers the revival of those memories.

Janeway, the good shepherd, is willing to jeopardize the quick destruction of the Borg collective by shutting down the vinculum in order to save one of her crew members.  (The vinculum is infected with a virus that destroys Borg drones.)

Marcia

Yes, I have. That was a good episode. Tuvok also plays a key role in helping Seven not lose herself in the voices. I never saw Tuvok as emotionless. He was a very strong, grounded person emotionally. While he never openly expressed emotions,  Tuvok is definitely someone who understood what these things meant to other people. Tuvok was a sourse of strength and support to Seven in her journey to regain her humanity without giving "human" lessons.

It's interesting that many of the ex-Borg don't fare as well as Seven. There was an episode where she meets a trio (a Bajoran woman/former Starfleet officer, and two other alien men) who are joined together through a link after their escape from the Collective. It turns out she is resposnsible for their state when they were all drones. Her actions then come back to haunt her, especially after the Doctor is able to "cure" them of this condition. The cure's unfortunate side effect is that they only have a few months to live. One man just moves on, the other man forgives Seven the way his culture taught him to, and the Bajoran woman chooses to remain aboard Voyager but cannot bring herself to forgive Seven.