Weird Teachings

[al Hartman]

When I think of the kids of the leaders who were our child training experts, I wonder if they are better off for being the 'model' kids that they were under the assembly umbrella.

     For a prime example, you need look no farther than Lee Irons, son of Fullerton elder Steve and his wife Margaret, both workers.  The only kids who are "better off" in terms of assembly standing are those who have willingly submitted to figurative lobotomy by the leadership...    Thank God, Lee did not.

[outdeep]

I think the main problem with Assembly parenting is the one-size-fits-all approach.  There were those who seemed to mat train successfully (Evans, Fords, Hinmans, Kehoes, etc.) and today have older children who are respectful and a family that is close-nitted.  Nevertheless, I have seen the same type of families emerge from denominational churches where kids are shuttled off the nursery and children's church.

As parents we are different and we bring different baggage to the equasion.  Similarly, children are different.  If you assume that strong willed children, ADD, ADHD, and bi-polar are simply indications of spiritual problems that can be cured by the mat and whip, you are setting yourself up for failure.  Similarly, if you assume that the reason the wife has trouble with the mat is because she is rebellious and the husband is passive (a condition which can be cured by exhortation along with assigned, irrelevant, consequences), you have really not taken the time to understand the person.

[Margaret]

Kimberly, do you think an apology from me would be at all helpful to your kids?  I wasn't directly involved with them, but I did help promote the poison.  To my shame, along with Diane Miller I was also a presenter at Ginger's first definitive Fullerton mothers' training meeting where the Cycle of Training was spelled out for everyone.  

Margaret

[delila]

Another spin on dysfunctional training:

I know a former assembly member who was a mother.  Mike and Cheryl Zach counseled this woman's CHILDREN to disobey and disrespect her.  You read it right.  Read it again and pause and calmly think of that.

Just when I thought it couldn't get any more twisted.  No wonder they don't want to give anything more than a "If I have wronged you I aplogize." If they really sat down to give an account of WHAT they taught and what the consequences were, I think there would be sudden chronic heart failure.

There are more voices, I believe, that will shortly be added to our discussion.

Love heals our diseases,

Delila

[Kimberley Tobin]

Kimberly, do you think an apology from me would be at all helpful to your kids?  I wasn't directly involved with them, but I did help promote the poison.  To my shame, along with Diane Miller I was also a presenter at Ginger's first definitive Fullerton mothers' training meeting where the Cycle of Training was spelled out for everyone.  

Margaret

WOW!  Someone wanting to apologize to my kids?  I don't think it would be effective for the younger children (couldn't relate it to their own lives, I don't think.)  But my 17 year old, I think, would definately benefit.  Just someone who had been in leadership at one time taking responsibility for the evil they perpetrated would be phenomenal.  I wish someone that she is actually familiar with i.e., Mark Miller, Jim Hayman, Mike and Cheryl Zoch, or even the most beneficial would be our SF leaders; Tim McCarthy, Andrew Gunther, Mitch Schuster (including Janis McCarthy) would be even MORE beneficial.

If any of you mentioned above actually reads this post, I challenge you to be a man or woman of COURAGE and take responsibility for YOUR actions.  You influenced my daughter GREATLY and I hold you DIRECTLY responsible for her emotional state today (some more than others, of course.)  God is certainly bigger than your influence, but to be a whimp and not own up to your part in what you did with my daughter is UNCONSCIENABLE!  

[jloadams]

Karey,

I've so appreciated reading your posts throughout the BB.  I guess you and I were part of the outer circle at G St. (the Arcata, CA assembly).  Me being a single Mom and you without your husband fullly involved meant we could never truely reach the goal of perfection in our children and a perfect attendence record.

I had to post when I saw your mention of Mary Fortezzo.  She was also a great encouragement to me.  She was so down to earth and real.  She was also the only mom with a child older than mine and she had boys.  That gave her a great deal of credibility in my book.  I also sensed that the methods of assembly discipline were very contrary to her gentle heart but as a good LBW she toed the line, daily submitting her natural instincts to God leadership.

I wanted to give a little update...something to rejoice about.  
Last week I attended Mary's baby shower at 1st Baptist in Arcata.  Let that sink in.  

Yes, the very same 1st B that was constantly referred to as worldly and just providing entertainment to the young.  That assessment was always hard for me to swallow as I grew up there and my parents were faithful members.  My Mom was even the church secretary.  I maintained contact with many people in the church through my folks and was always impressed by their walks with Christ.

I remember the strong disapproval I received from the LB's when I attended Sunday morning services at 1st B to see my brother and neice baptized.

Many ex- G St.ers are now involved at 1st B including the Fortezzo family.  To me, they are a goog representation of what God can do when any of us, but especially an LB, humbles himself and puts all they had been taught and were teaching into God's hands and gets involved in a health church.

But here's the really fun part...they're having a girl!!!  I think it's nothing short of a miracle that, after five boys, they're having a girl at this time!  I rejoice for them that they will be raising this precious girl out from under the oppressive hand of G and B.

Janet  




 

[tkarey]

Hey there Janet!!!!

I was so excited when I saw your first post a few months ago (well it was the first one I'd seen). Hey!! Another Arcatan!! Once in awhile I would call Tammy or Mary to hear a friendly voice. I remember asking after you and Tam said you'd gone to Arcata B. I'd always heard good things about that place (not from the assembly but from others). I'd forgotten you'd grown up there.  Your wedding dress was beautiful (from photo post). Is your son the tall dark one by you??? Wow, he was around 8 the last time I saw him. Please accept a belated congratulations and the best of everything for your new family. I'm so happy for you!!

 Yes, I completely agree we were in the outer circle. That bothered me a great deal and didn't improve my outlook toward my husband any. It was quite a blow when he left fellowship when Sam (now 14) wasn't even a year old. I remembered yesterday after reading Kimberley's post that he left shortly after a fall seminar. Wonder if there's any connection there! We'd also eaten dinner at George and Betty's house while down there. I remembered this because I'd done that bathroom thing at the seminar ...with a 7 month old baby. It was less intense but still mouth covering and sweating and being mortified (he didn't like having his mouth covered, imagine that, even though it wasn't new to him).  I apparently let my frustration show after the third trip to the bathroom because a woman followed me in there to see if I was ok. I could be wrong - obviously have been a lot - but it seemed she was more concerned about me stomping out of the room (we weren't even close to the bathroom) than anything else. What a circus!!!

Mary was aware of my "perfectionist" tendencies and was such a picture of grace. Her kindness and gentleness and "don't worry what people think of you" was like medicine. Amazing, amazing. I am so very happy for her and Greg at the birth of this baby. We don't talk much but I did get a funny email pix of her and her belly the other day. She was smiling from ear to ear.

Kimberley, I was speechless after reading your post yesterday. I needed Verne's vocabulary to render an appropriate reply! Glad to see he beat me to it.
Delila, I've put a mental post-it on my brain to remember what kind of family our advice came from.
Dave and Al, I'm always blessed by your comments and insights. Thank you.

Do you ever feel like a prisoner that's been kept in a cold, dark camp and now that you are free you can't stop being amazed at each blade of grass, each rising and setting of the sun?

[sfortescue]

aside: I was trying to make the letters bigger so I could read it better. I hit the Capital 'A' with an up and down arrow. None of the writing got bigger and I don't know how this will look once posted. Can anyone help?

When you click the size button, the following appears:

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with the cursor at the end.  First, move the cursor back and change the 2 into 3.  Then, move the cursor between the start tag [] and the end tag [] and type the text that you want to be bigger.  Afterwards, move the cursor so that it is after the end tag.  Then finish typing the normal sized text.

This is what the result should be:

Normal text, []Big text[], more normal text.

which appears like this:

Normal text, Big text, more normal text.

You can also just type in the tags, instead of using the button.
(An end tag has a slash in it.  A start tag doesn't.)

[outdeep]

I am really happy to hear about Greg and Mary Fortezzo.  Greg came out to the Beach house in Huntington Beach around 1978-1979 just after I began coming out.  For a short time, we were in a little singing group called Dayspring where we tried to sing songs that set scripture to music.  We played at a few tent meetings, a wedding and probably Friday night outreaches.  I remember the first time Greg led a midweek Bible Study.  It was in John 6 and he kept talking about Christ being the bread of life and "if you settle for other things, you are settling for a stale loaf".  It was simple and sincere though I am sure his preaching has matured over the many years since.

Kathy Sullivan came out in those early beach days.  I don't know the circumstances, but her younger sister Mary began coming out later as well.  Kathy had a dry wit while Mary was a positive spark plug.  Before every Beach prayer meeting she would share with Earl Sommerville (who let the time) all the people she was praying for at her job.

The Fortezzos were very nice and gracious folks.  They were also very faithful and stable - which caused them to rise up through the ranks and eventually be sent up North.  On the good side, it means they were always a ready witness on their job and willing to work hard to see the Lord's cause advanced.  On the bad side, it meant that they towed the line even to other's hurts.

Kathy left years ago and there was the typical shunning.  She went on to a denominational church and has been on mission trips.  I hope Mary and Kathy have reconciled by now.

[al Hartman]

Do you ever feel like a prisoner that's been kept in a cold, dark camp and now that you are free you can't stop being amazed at each blade of grass, each rising and setting of the sun?

Karey,
     Amazed, delighted, thankful... only one who has been there could understand.  I suspect there are many on this board who do...

 :Dal

[matthew r. sciaini]

To "ex-Arcatans":

I know this is off topic, but the Arcata assembly disbanded last month.  I was talking a few weeks ago with a brother I got to know during his days as a campus worker here in Fullerton and he told me this.

Matt Sciaini

[M2]

Another spin on dysfunctional training:

I know a former assembly member who was a mother.  Mike and Cheryl Zach counseled this woman's CHILDREN to disobey and disrespect her.  You read it right.  Read it again and pause and calmly think of that.

Just when I thought it couldn't get any more twisted.  No wonder they don't want to give anything more than a "If I have wronged you I aplogize." If they really sat down to give an account of WHAT they taught and what the consequences were, I think there would be sudden chronic heart failure.

There are more voices, I believe, that will shortly be added to our discussion.

Love heals our diseases,

Delila

Makes one wonder Why??  Why would Mike and Cheryl counsel kids to disobey and disrespect their mother? This is contrary even to what the Bible teaches.  Was it to "train" her because she was not toeing the party line?  What was the mind that made the word of our counsellors override the Word of God?  Were we truly that deceived? and.. did the kids follow through having learned Eph 6:1, the first verse that most assembly kids memorized?  Wow! This is truly amazing!  Even now, existing LBs get away with blatant lies in order to preserve the "testimony".  It is OK to lie in order to preserve the unity.  It is OK to lie in order to preserve the testimony.  It is OK to tell the kids to disobey their parent in order to ??

Great quote:

"Wounded vanity knows when it is mortally hurt; and limps off the field, piteous, all disguises thrown away.  But pride carries its banner to the last; and fast as it is driven from one field unfurls it in another."
           ___Helen Hunt Jackson, American author (1831-1885)

Applied to George and assembly leadership, this quote really comes to life!  

[M2]

Makes one wonder Why??  Why would Mike and Cheryl counsel kids to disobey and disrespect their mother?

On the contrary Marcia, this is entirely in keeping with the well-establihsed posture of these individuals. Remember the assembly in Omaha withessed at its beginning the systematic and deliberate destruction of an entire family that was by all appearances, a very godly one. That episode has got to be one of the saddest legacies of Mike Zach as a chief enabler of the apostate george geftakys. There is going to be a really rotten harvest...
Verne

Verne,

Yes, you are right about this. I expected that there would have been a difference made when counselling kids who were under 18.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[al Hartman]

Makes one wonder Why??  

...I expected that there would have been a difference made when counselling kids who were under 18.

     ...and there would have been, and was, in every case where the benefit of the individual was considered.
     But we were taught to believe that the "testimony" (the assembly) held preeminence over any other consideration, and we were to preserve & protect it at all costs.  The "preeminence" part would have been true, had our perception of what the Lord's testimony truly is been valid.  And, had it been, we would have known that Christ's public testimony could never be at the cost of the well-being of His little ones.  
     What madness, that any of us ever believed that exalting the Lord could involve harming the very saints that comprised it.  What we engaged in was, essentially, human sacrifice, an offence to God and a disgrace to His name.

     Our deliverance has been nothing short of miraculous, His forgiveness of us unprecedented among mere mortals.  Our debt to Him is immeasurable, albeit cancelled.  Let our gratitude be so as well...

[tkarey]

Stephen, thank you!! It makes so much sense now.

Matt, that is the best news I've heard so far this year. I feel like kicking up my heels!!!!!!!! Woohooo!!!

Dave, Mary is the one who told me of the website when I called her out of the blue last March! She expressed excitement over the new direction the Lord was taking their family. A spark plug is a good picture. She brings energy to every situation. I have missed her and Greg a great deal, even in the midst of personal angst and confusion.

 :-*Karey