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Author Topic: Weird Teachings  (Read 139110 times)
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« Reply #150 on: April 22, 2005, 02:39:23 am »

IV. Worship

Acts 2:40-47 They continued steadfastly ...in breaking of bread...

It is blessed to know these things, that is, to see them and to do them and not just to believe them. This passage is the history of the church. From generation to generation they have continued steadfastly in these things.

The term used for worship is "breaking of bread." This is what can be seen. The culmination of a time of worship was this remembrance of the Lord using these symbols of the bread and the wine which He had appointed. It is God's house, we are just guests. We can not simply do things our own way. We must be doing things God's way. We can not worship God "our way." It needs to be His way.

Today God has a way to be worshipped John 4:21-24. We must worship Him according to the truth, according to the pattern shown in His word. Many say that it does not matter how you worship the Lord. They say that when the Lord comes we will all find out what is the right way. Verses 25-26 But the Lord did come and He has shown us the right way.

1 Corinthians 11:1-3A The churches customs are not those of the world. We are given a pattern by special revelation. Two customs or traditions of the church are given in this chapter. The first is head covering in meetings when assembled as the church. Paul uses apostolic authority in showing that this should be done. The other tradition is the Lord's supper. Verses 23-24 Paul was given special revelation from the Lord as to the importance and significance of the Lord's supper. We are to worship the Lord in the way that He has revealed by His word.

John 4:7 Give me to drink. Worship is a wonderful opportunity for believers to give to drink to the God who needs nothing. Psalm says that God inhabits the praises of His people. We all as children of God are called to exercise ourselves in our priestly privileges and responsibilities by being ready to offer a sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to His name Hebs 13:15. All the members are to be exercised in heart to worship the Lord not just a few.

V. Prayer

Acts 2:42 And they continued steadfastly ... in prayers.

From the beginning of the church, believers have met together to pray. Acts 1:13-14 The disciples prayed, but the Holy Spirit makes special note that the women joined them in prayer. All of God's people, both men and women are called to join together to pray.

Matthew 18:17-20 Speaking in the context of the assembly, the word of God promises great authority in corporate prayer, both to loose God's power and to bind demonic forces. Yet today few churches have regular prayer meetings. We need to join together as a church to know the real fullness of the power of prayer.

The authority of the church is not "the vote." Our authority is before the throne of God. Heaven is not a democracy. God is a monarch. Acts12:1-5 The arm of the world is violence. Violence is not the way of the church. Against the sword of the nations, they used prayer and were overwhelmingly victorious. They were known as turning the world upside down. Prayer is not simply our last resort. Prayer is our power in the world today. Prayer is the arm and power of God.


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vernecarty
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« Reply #151 on: April 22, 2005, 03:50:08 am »

What is it saying? Verse outline of the chapter
What does it mean? What is The Lord saying to me personally from the chapter (John8:27).
What am I going to do about it? Personal application to what The Lord has said to me (James1:22-25).



I took a look at that website and it certainly brings back memories.
I realised something as I was reading through some of it.
The kind of legalistic propaganda the author(s) has srpinkled all throughout is something that well-read students of the Bible would dismiss. Assembly people read their Bibles a lot, but few of them studied it.
I am more convinced than ever that this, sound Biblical understanding, is what ultimtely makes the difference in the way we respond to error.
Verne

p.s it's kind of amazing that I never remembered that they would throw in that "what it means to me personally", until I think it was Dave, pointed it out on the BB some time ago. How subtle are s the beginnings of error!
« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 03:52:49 am by VerneCarty » Logged
editor
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« Reply #152 on: April 22, 2005, 04:03:10 am »

What is it saying? Verse outline of the chapter
What does it mean? What is The Lord saying to me personally from the chapter (John8:27).
What am I going to do about it? Personal application to what The Lord has said to me (James1:22-25).



I took a look at that website and it certainly brings back memories.
I realised something as I was reading through some of it.
The kind of legalistic propaganda the author(s) has srpinkled all throughout is something that well-read students of the Bible would dismiss. Assembly people read their Bibles a lot, but few of them studied it.
I am more convinced than ever that this, sound Biblical understanding, is what ultimtely makes the difference in the way we respond to error.
Verne

p.s it's kind of amazing that I never remembered that they would throw in that "what it means to me personally", until I think it was Dave, pointed it out on the BB some time ago. How subtle are s the beginnings of error!

Did you catch all the suggestions that most churches were wrong, and that God has a special way he wanted to be worshipped,  Head Coverings and Lord's supper every sunday?

How about the "you must get counsel from the leaders" phrase at the end?  The elitist mentality is thinly veiled, as is the frank assertion that most of a person's salvation is dependent upon how well they use the anchors.

Brent
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vernecarty
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« Reply #153 on: April 22, 2005, 05:44:21 am »

Did you catch all the suggestions that most churches were wrong, and that God has a special way he wanted to be worshipped,  Head Coverings and Lord's supper every sunday?

How about the "you must get counsel from the leaders" phrase at the end?  The elitist mentality is thinly veiled, as is the frank assertion that most of a person's salvation is dependent upon how well they use the anchors.

Brent

Yes.
There is no substitute for experience.
The things that you or I would spot immediately in an offering such as this, are not necessarily things that a young freshly minted believer would notice. This is one of the reasons that I like to see elders with a little grey, in my leadership team.
The person who wrote this is doing what they were trained to do, and based on how they were taught to think.
The teaching lacks humility and borders on condescension. I also have no doubt that this person probably does not intend this and may not even be aware of it.
This brings me to another point. None of us are perfect. While we may have strong opinons and perspectives, it does not mean we are infallible. This critical matter is the reason I have always placed so much emphasis on true plurality in leadership.
All of us need at least one or two people in our lives that we can go to and say: give it to me straight.
Frankly, this is particularly true in my own case as I am loathe to accept any adivice (paricularly in spiritual matters) from any Tom Dick and Harry because of the simple fact that there are few people qualified to give it. I am sometimes genuinely astonished at what unblievable hogwash is dished out by some folk There is nothing more debilitating than receiving and acting on wrong and misguided counsel.
George apparently had no one like this he go talk to. This can be fatal.
One of the reasons I like the interaction on the BB is that many of us think and talk out of our experience.
It is hard to have a true zeal for rightoeousness unless you have witnessed what ungodliness unchecked does to people;
You can tell a lot about a person by the way to view sinful conduct. It is quite revealing.
 With very few exceptions, no one posting on this BB has taken the any position other than Geftaky was a man of great wickedness.
While we do not always see eye to eye on every point, I think we have been wonderfully inocculated against the likes of Geftakys by what we went through.
I must say after reading that site I have a new apprciation of Tom's disdain for the "deeper life" crowd; not because  I reject the belief that the significance of Scripture can go beyond the mere literal, but rather that people who begin and end there are not to be trusted for one second. The great likelihood is that they have no idea whatsoever what they are talking about, and are simply mindlessly parroting what they have either heard or read.
There is no substitute for experience.
Verne
« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 05:47:14 am by VerneCarty » Logged
al Hartman
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« Reply #154 on: April 22, 2005, 06:13:50 am »



Man, that took me back, too.  I didn't realize it, but I had completely forgot what it felt like to have spent an entire holiday weekend in meetings, furiously flipping Bible pages & writing notes in pidgin shorthand, spending the brief hours between meetings discussing the messages over rushed meals, getting short nights' sleep between evening times & morning times.  But it all came flooding back after about 1/2hour of reading Brent's several posts.  One thing I realized this time around:  That elated feeling I used to have at the end of a three-day seminar-- the feeling I used to attribute to having been singularly blessed to have been in the Lord's place at the Lord's time-- was really just a feeling of great relief that it was over and I could drop my guard and possibly get a few hours of real rest before having to return to work the next day!

Thanks Brent, I needed that (see Marcia's penguins for illustration)!

Quote
The person who wrote this is doing what they were trained to do, and based on how they were taught to think.
The teaching lacks humility and borders on condescension. I also have no doubt that this person probably does not intend this and may not even be aware of it.

Unless I'm mistaken, the material Brent posted was taken almost verbatim from a GG seminar and/or a series of Sunday afternoon ministry from back in the early days of Fullerton.  I can remember sitting under most of it, if not all.


The outstanding feature to me is that of all that is quoted, so much of it is good material terribly, criminally misapplied.  That is, in its proper context, much of what is quoted would be good teaching.  I may be oversimplifying in this statement, but much of what should be understood as the fruit of the work of God's Holy Spirit in the life of the individual and of the church was being presented as the means to the working of the Holy Spirit-- as if the gifts of God's grace must be earned by human effort.


A few notes on a few quotes:
Quote
If you are attending the coporate meetings regularly but there is sin in your life, then you are not enjoying or experiencing fellowship.

There is a fundamental truth here: that sin can disrupt fellowship with God.  But the way it was mistaught in the assy was:  If you are attending every meeting but are not reveling in feelings of exultation and joy, you need to do some deep soul-searching to find the hidden sin in your life.  The idea that your feelings are not the final authority was bypassed in favor of your lack of joy indicating the presence of sin.  Genuine faith is thus eliminated from the equation.

Quote
Important decisions should always be made after counselling with the leadership where you are in fellowship. Such counsel should never be laid aside lightly, because they will be called to give account concerning your soul.

This was a perverted carrot-&-stick routine:  The carrot was that you can know God's perfect plan for your life by submitting your inclinations and desires to the assy leadership.  But the stick was not just used for dangling the carrot-- it was then detached & used to beat the saints into submission to whatever misshapen ideas the leaders might concoct by which to run & often ruin their lives.

Quote
Did you catch all the suggestions that most churches were wrong, and that God has a special way he wanted to be worshipped,  Head Coverings and Lord's supper every sunday?

How about the "you must get counsel from the leaders" phrase at the end?  The elitist mentality is thinly veiled, as is the frank assertion that most of a person's salvation is dependent upon how well they use the anchors.

Here again is the cart-before-the-horse scenario.  Those things which may occur as a result of the Holy Spirit's being free to work in the hearts and in the midst of His people are being taught as the mandatory means to get the Holy Spirit to show up-- a works-based avenue to earning grace, whereas grace, by definition, is freely bestowed, unearned.

...and finally:
Quote
You can tell those who are in the Lord's word, because they start looking like Him. 2 Corinthians 3:17-18 As we behold Him in His word our faces start to reflect His glory also.

Whether or not there may be any truth at all to this allegation is immaterial when considering its source.  Even in the early days, when George was at his most charismatic, it would be an impossible stretch to think of God (even on a bad-hair day) looking anything like him, much less vice-versa.

al
« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 06:17:56 am by al Hartman » Logged
vernecarty
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« Reply #155 on: April 22, 2005, 07:06:15 am »

George's emphasis on the corporate expression sounded lofty and grand. It initially did to me.
One has to understand it in terms of the man's objective.
This kind of what was essentially "group think" was from the beginning designed to squelch serious personal reflection and individual responsibility. Everything for the "testimony" you understand.
Imagine the man's gumption in making the argument that exposing him as a revolting adulterer was to to be avoided so as "not to destroy a world-wide ministry."
A few more things have come to light regarding his conduct while traveling abroad.
It is hard for me to believe that the men with him did not know some of this stuff.
Didn't more of you wonder about the suddeness with which contacts with certain formerly prominent names and places would be lost and quietly dropped from the "bragging list"?
 The man's avarice also has to be considered. As much as he enjoyed the control, it is my own opinon that from the beginning it was his purpose to get groups together so concerned about the "testimony" that they would fork over their hard-earned money thoughtlessly and joyfully. That is exactly what hundreds did.
Verne
« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 07:11:14 am by VerneCarty » Logged
night owl
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« Reply #156 on: April 22, 2005, 08:41:52 am »

The date on the UCSB website says this was last updated in 1999. Is this Bible study still active on campus?
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M2
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« Reply #157 on: April 22, 2005, 09:30:21 am »

The date on the UCSB website says this was last updated in 1999. Is this Bible study still active on campus?

Don't know about the UCSB one, but here is a current up-to-date one from Ottawa (who was not really influenced by Fullerton Roll Eyes ) :
www.saltandlight.ca/study.php

Marcia
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al Hartman
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« Reply #158 on: April 22, 2005, 11:48:10 am »



Don't know about the UCSB one, but here is a current up-to-date one from Ottawa (who was not really influenced by Fullerton Roll Eyes ) :
www.saltandlight.ca/study.php

Marcia

Ah yes, distinctly non-Fullertonian.  I especially like the part about S P A C E.  It is, after all, the final frontier! Cool

al
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editor
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« Reply #159 on: April 22, 2005, 07:02:09 pm »

Don't know about the UCSB one, but here is a current up-to-date one from Ottawa (who was not really influenced by Fullerton Roll Eyes ) :
www.saltandlight.ca/study.php

Marcia

I expect that the Assemblies, like Ottawa, that weren't influenced by Fullerton are really growing?

Is God answering even 2% of their prayers?  They pray for 'new ones' and visitors at least twice a week, so 2x52=104.

That would mean about 2 "new ones" per year....if God was answering at 2%...which certainly doesn't fit the NT pattern, neither is it above all we could ask or think.

Telemarkerters shoot for 2%, but they almost always are not  a testimony of the Body of Christ, locally expressed.  They aren't special to God, like an Assembly.  Also, telemarketers have a tendency to irritate people....that's why they only get a 2% success rate.

So, how are things in Ottawa?  Are they getting a return on outreach equal to telemarketing?

Brent
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vernecarty
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« Reply #160 on: April 22, 2005, 07:15:02 pm »

I expect that the Assemblies, like Ottawa, that weren't influenced by Fullerton are really growing?

Is God answering even 2% of their prayers?  They pray for 'new ones' and visitors at least twice a week, so 2x52=104.

That would mean about 2 "new ones" per year....if God was answering at 2%...which certainly doesn't fit the NT pattern, neither is it above all we could ask or think.

Telemarkerters shoot for 2%, but they almost always are not  a testimony of the Body of Christ, locally expressed.  They aren't special to God, like an Assembly.  Also, telemarketers have a tendency to irritate people....that's why they only get a 2% success rate.

So, how are things in Ottawa?  Are they getting a return on outreach equal to telemarketing?

Brent

Brent Brent Brent...you simply don't understand do you?
They are the faithful remnant...by definition a small fraction of the whole.
So what if other mature believers tell you that what you are teaching and doing is cultish and unbiblical?
What do they know? Afterall, they don't have the "light" that we have, and the fact that we have remained an isolated society of one or two makes absolutely no difference. Don't you get it?
Even though we do pray fervently that God would add, the fact that He doesn't proves that we are indeed the faithful remnant!!
Implied in that is that we don't have toi endure the society of other adults!  And most certainly not other adult Christians!  Small is beautiful!  Smiley
Verne
« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 08:31:26 pm by VerneCarty » Logged
M2
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« Reply #161 on: April 22, 2005, 08:57:41 pm »

I expect that the Assemblies, like Ottawa, that weren't influenced by Fullerton are really growing?

Is God answering even 2% of their prayers?  They pray for 'new ones' and visitors at least twice a week, so 2x52=104.

That would mean about 2 "new ones" per year....if God was answering at 2%...which certainly doesn't fit the NT pattern, neither is it above all we could ask or think.

Telemarkerters shoot for 2%, but they almost always are not  a testimony of the Body of Christ, locally expressed.  They aren't special to God, like an Assembly.  Also, telemarketers have a tendency to irritate people....that's why they only get a 2% success rate.

So, how are things in Ottawa?  Are they getting a return on outreach equal to telemarketing?

Brent

Maybe not with the numbers, but remember the "work" is their salvation so there is much spiritual growth in the members left. Smiley

Marcia
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Oscar
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« Reply #162 on: April 22, 2005, 09:59:54 pm »

Foks,

Chapter Summary Bible study was invented in the 1930's by Milo Jamison for his outreach group at UCLA.  He became the founding pastor of University Bible Church near the campus.

Dawson Trotman adopted it as a method for his group Bible studies in his Navigator's homes in the 1940's and 1950's.

George Geftakys used to attend the Bible studies at Dawson Trotman's home in South Pasadena back in his Biola days.

Thomas Maddux
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editor
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« Reply #163 on: April 22, 2005, 10:04:56 pm »

Foks,

Chapter Summary Bible study was invented in the 1930's by Milo Jamison for his outreach group at UCLA.  He became the founding pastor of University Bible Church near the campus.

Dawson Trotman adopted it as a method for his group Bible studies in his Navigator's homes in the 1940's and 1950's.

George Geftakys used to attend the Bible studies at Dawson Trotman's home in South Pasadena back in his Biola days.

Thomas Maddux
Yep.  It's from the Navigators, although in reality, Chapter Summary is simply a streamlined Inductive Method type of Bible Study.

I see no problem at all with the method.  In fact, it's perfectly OK.  The problems were with what was taught, not only in word but in deed.

George didn't invent prayer meetings either....or ANOP's.

Brent
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summer007
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« Reply #164 on: April 22, 2005, 11:04:47 pm »

Christ is the Anchor of the soul sure and steadfast. Not the 10 anchors / 4 anchors. See where the author most likely GG mentions the leadership will have to give an account for your soul. What leader is accounting for GG ? Also in the Ind. word section he says the word should be not only in your heart but on you like a BODY-CAST, this is horrific, with 10 anchors, and a body cast I don't see any smooth sailing going on, more like paralization.  Summer.  (You see I've been through the Desert in a church with no name, it feels good to be out of the pain)
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