Weird Teachings

[moonflower2]

Do you think little snot-nose doesn't know this? If it did match, he would have thrown it in your face. That is probaby the first thing he checked.
Like his mentor, his accusation simply displays their penchant for mendacity.
Verne

Snot nose?  This will provide reading material over at SWTB for a week. 

[vernecarty]

Snot nose?  This will provide reading material over at SWTB for a week. 

We would not want them to drop dead of boredom now would we?  Enjoy!
Verne
p.s they have taken the concept of obsession to new lows...at my last look-see I was certain that I would have discovered that other topics now occupied the interest of the principals...wrong again! (said Rafiki); it is pathetic beyond descritption.

[night owl]

Two experiences come to mind.

One was at a Sunday meeting we went to where a jogger, dressed in his warm-up suit, jogged up to the door to see what was going on. He asked if he could come in. He was told by the doorkeeper guy that he couldn't come in as long as he was dressed the way he was, but that an extra supply of clothes could be provided for him to change into. The jogger declined and left.

The other was at an evening seminar. I had brought a tape recorder with me because I'm a lousy note-taker, and we were confused about the things we were hearing about the Assembly, and wanted to make sure we were getting it straight. At the end of the evening when the meeting was over, I was approached by a couple of guys who introduced themselves and told me they needed to take my tape. I explained that taping lectures was helpful to me because I don't take notes well. They told me that there were a bunch of Hare Krishnas (do Hare Krishnas travel in bunches? Gaggles? Herds?) down the street who took everything the Assembly said and twisted it around, so they had to be very careful of people who didn't understand who would distort what they were teaching. We argued back and forth a little bit, and then they reluctantly let me keep the tape. As we were driving away that night, we had the tape in the cassette player in the car and we were listening to George talk. While we were in the room during the seminar, things George would say made sense every now and then. As we were driving away, the weirdest thing was happening - it was like driving out of a spider web, and the further we drove the more the web stretched until we had torn a hole and drove through. The more we listened and the farther away we got, the more we said, "Waaaaaaait a minute - that's not right . . ."

[M2]

Spooky

I am interested in what you think caused the "spider web" phenomenon?

Marcia

[night owl]

um - I wish I had a good answer for that? Some of it was due to the fact that I'm a slow thinker, I don't make decisions quickly, and I need time to process things. Some of it was also related to my own spiritual maturity, or lack thereof. I had only been a Christian for less than ten years myself, and wasn't very discerning at that point in my life. Cults were still very new things to me, and I was very naive. And some of it was hampered by my desire to be open-minded about this new church my brother was going to. I was willing to kind of lay my own "red flags" of warning aside to give him the benefit of the doubt. And I was a very non-confrontive person back then - I was scared to death of having my own opinions about things, or, heaven forbid, that I should try to defend my beliefs to someone. Not a good combination when diligence is needed.

Anyway, all that aside, it was more of a feeling than anything else. At the seminar, there was a sense of adrenoline, because I had never seen people behave so intensely at church before, and the scripture quoting was flowing so fast I hardly had a chance to catch up, I remember hearing the constant rustling of pages. It seemed like you could barely look one up before he was moving on to another one. It was kind of envigorating, and if nothing else, he was a very charismatic speaker. So even though I had no desire to join the Assembly myself, there was a kind of glow that lingered after we left and got in the car. But the more we distanced ourselves (literally) from the place, the more I had a chance to think, and while we were listening to what he said again, we had a chance to kind of process what he was saying, and reality kind of set in. At the time, I couldn't put my finger on the possibility that there was a spirit of opression at work. It just felt like the cobwebs were clearing and the words he'd said that had sounded pretty good before were really kind of gobbledy-gook.

Hmm, probably waaaaay more than you wanted to know . . .

[vernecarty]

Spooky

I am interested in what you think caused the "spider web" phenomenon?

Marcia

I have heard some really weird stories both first and second hand about people who visited the assemblies and never came back. Since none of us are experts in this area, there has not been too much discussion regarding the spiritually dark side of all that Geftakys was and did. Perhaps we are better off not knowing. The fact that this man actually had occultic literature in his possession tells me all I need to know. God was truly merciful to some of us. 
Verne

p.s. The thing that finally convinced me that George was more than just a fraud but a  man of real spiritual power was reflection of the caliber of men that he corrupted. It completely changed my thinking about what spiritual maturity was.
Too many of us defer to people for reasons of reputation or title.
When you think of it, the evidence suggested that Geftakys, rather than being worthy of all the honor he arrogated to himself, was worthy of nothing but contempt.
I have learned to look into people's eyes. They never lie.
As I hinted before, it has much less to do do with what we say, and even what we do. You can fool a lot of folk by saying and doing  seemingly the right things. The secret of true spiritual power, of the Holy Spirit or otherwise, is what we are!
Does anybody think the Lord was employing hyperbole when he said to some:

"You are of your father the devil?"

You ultimately cannot indefinitely coninue pretending to be something you are not. Sooner or later, it will be evident to all.
God will see to it. Geftakys certainly proves this point.

[al Hartman]

Two experiences come to mind.

One was at a Sunday meeting we went to where a jogger, dressed in his warm-up suit, jogged up to the door to see what was going on. He asked if he could come in. He was told by the doorkeeper guy that he couldn't come in as long as he was dressed the way he was, but that an extra supply of clothes could be provided for him to change into. The jogger declined and left.

By the strangest of coincidences I received the following e-mail just this morning:
Subject: Proper Attire

One Sunday morning an old cowboy entered a church just before services were to begin. Although the old man and his clothes were spotlessly clean, he wore jeans,a denim shirt and boots that were very worn and ragged. In his hand he carried a worn out old hat and an equally worn out bible.

The church he entered was in a very upscale and exclusive part of the city. It was the largest and most beautiful church the old cowboy had ever seen.  The people of the congregation were all dressed with expensive clothes and accessories.

As the cowboy took a seat, the others moved away from him. No one greeted, spoke to, or welcomed him. They were all appalled at his appearance and did not attempt to hide it.

The preacher gave a short sermon about the goodness of God and man and a stirring appeal regarding how much money the church needed to do God's work.

As the old cowboy was leaving the church, the preacher approached him and told the cowboy, "Before you come back in here again,  have a talk with God and ask him what he thinks would be appropriate attire for worship here."  The old cowboy assured the preacher he would.

The next Sunday, he showed back up for the services wearing the same ragged jeans, shirt, boots, and hat. Once again he was completely shunned and ignored. The preacher approached the man and said,"I thought you promised to speak to God about your clothes before you came back to our church."

"I did," replied the old cowboy.

"Well then, did God tell you to come back here wearing what you have on?" asked the preacher.
 
"Well, sir, God told me that He couldn't tell me what I should wear on account of He's never been in this church before."

[al Hartman]

Spooky

I am interested in what you think caused the "spider web" phenomenon?

Marcia

Tom has made some astute observations in the past re: "mob mentality" and crowd control, which in no way conflict with Verne's observations about the spiritual element-- the phenomenon may occur with or wthout the empowerment of the latter, and even without it is dangerous because those being influenced are unaware of being controlled and actually enjoy the experience. 

There is something very basic in human nature that seeks the security and comfort of numbers, never suspecting the lemming-like results that can ensue.  It is sin's & satan's counterfeit of the fellowship of the church, Christ's body, in the Holy Spirit.

al

[editor]

Spooky

I am interested in what you think caused the "spider web" phenomenon?

Marcia

Some of you remember how I used to refer to the spider web as a "demonic fog."  I am convinced we are talking about the same thing here.

I could not agree more about how the intensity of the people, the page turning and the scripture quoting served to "wow" people.  However, if you step back and realize what is happening here, people aren't impressed by the glory of God, but by the form of godliness, intensely demonstrated by the people.  The focus was on external things and not on Christ.  This became apparent as soon as one got their head above the fog and actually analyzed what was being said.  Like Night Owl said, some of it made sense, but much of it was either hot air, or plain old false teaching.

It's interesting, Night Owl says she wasn't very discerning....yet she knew something was wrong.  Contrast that with us, who perceived ourselves as quite discerning, applying the inward cross, daily dying to self that we might mortify the deeds of the flesh, and be renewed in our minds....etc.  We had read Madam Guyon, Hannah Whitehall-Smith,  Jesse Penn-Lewis, Robert Govett, and Charles Solomon...but in spite of all this we couldn't figure out who the arrogant windbag was, and we deferred to him and fawned on him, and called him,  "The Lord's Servant."  Well, as we know now, that "servant" was likely engaging in perverted sexual acts with a woman who wasn't his wife that same weekend he was spewing out his god-talk.

The fact is we were wrong, and a simple, humble person who didn't think they were very discerning figured it out. 

That's the demonic fog, the spider web.  The people who are most blind to it are those who have the pride of the deeper life.  They don't even see it, and can't begin to consider it, because they are so convinced that they clearly hear God speak, etc.  I know, because I was one....as were many of my friends.

Brent

[M2]

Some of you remember how I used to refer to the spider web as a "demonic fog."  I am convinced we are talking about the same thing here.

I could not agree more about how the intensity of the people, the page turning and the scripture quoting served to "wow" people.  However, if you step back and realize what is happening here, people aren't impressed by the glory of God, but by the form of godliness, intensely demonstrated by the people.  The focus was on external things and not on Christ.  This became apparent as soon as one got their head above the fog and actually analyzed what was being said.  Like Night Owl said, some of it made sense, but much of it was either hot air, or plain old false teaching.

It's interesting, Night Owl says she wasn't very discerning....yet she knew something was wrong.  Contrast that with us, who perceived ourselves as quite discerning, applying the inward cross, daily dying to self that we might mortify the deeds of the flesh, and be renewed in our minds....etc.  We had read Madam Guyon, Hannah Whitehall-Smith,  Jesse Penn-Lewis, Robert Govett, and Charles Solomon...but in spite of all this we couldn't figure out who the arrogant windbag was, and we deferred to him and fawned on him, and called him,  "The Lord's Servant."  Well, as we know now, that "servant" was likely engaging in perverted sexual acts with a woman who wasn't his wife that same weekend he was spewing out his god-talk.

The fact is we were wrong, and a simple, humble person who didn't think they were very discerning figured it out. 

That's the demonic fog, the spider web.  The people who are most blind to it are those who have the pride of the deeper life.  They don't even see it, and can't begin to consider it, because they are so convinced that they clearly hear God speak, etc.  I know, because I was one....as were many of my friends.

Brent

I quoted your post Brent, so that it does not disappear.  I can read it when I click on the 10 most recent, but it is not indicated as the most recent.

um - I wish I had a good answer for that? Some of it was due to the fact that I'm a slow thinker, I don't make decisions quickly, and I need time to process things. Some of it was also related to my own spiritual maturity, or lack thereof. I had only been a Christian for less than ten years myself, and wasn't very discerning at that point in my life. Cults were still very new things to me, and I was very naive. And some of it was hampered by my desire to be open-minded about this new church my brother was going to. I was willing to kind of lay my own "red flags" of warning aside to give him the benefit of the doubt. And I was a very non-confrontive person back then - I was scared to death of having my own opinions about things, or, heaven forbid, that I should try to defend my beliefs to someone. Not a good combination when diligence is needed.

Anyway, all that aside, it was more of a feeling than anything else. At the seminar, there was a sense of adrenoline, because I had never seen people behave so intensely at church before, and the scripture quoting was flowing so fast I hardly had a chance to catch up, I remember hearing the constant rustling of pages. It seemed like you could barely look one up before he was moving on to another one. It was kind of envigorating, and if nothing else, he was a very charismatic speaker. So even though I had no desire to join the Assembly myself, there was a kind of glow that lingered after we left and got in the car. But the more we distanced ourselves (literally) from the place, the more I had a chance to think, and while we were listening to what he said again, we had a chance to kind of process what he was saying, and reality kind of set in. At the time, I couldn't put my finger on the possibility that there was a spirit of opression at work. It just felt like the cobwebs were clearing and the words he'd said that had sounded pretty good before were really kind of gobbledy-gook.

Hmm, probably waaaaay more than you wanted to know . . .

It is interesting that an "outsider" (non-assemblyite) has made the same observations.
Night Owl referred to other facts that we have been pointing out on this BB:
George's charisma
spirit of opression
'willing to kind of lay my own "red flags" of warning aside to give him the benefit of the doubt.'

Other "outsiders", who visited the Ottawa assembly occasionally, have read the Web-site and commented that the Ottawa assembly was definitely Geftakysized.  Yet Ottawa claims that it was not affected by Fullerton because of distance. 

Marcia

[editor]

I quoted your post Brent, so that it does not disappear.  I can read it when I click on the 10 most recent, but it is not indicated as the most recent.

It is interesting that an "outsider" (non-assemblyite) has made the same observations.
Night Owl referred to other facts that we have been pointing out on this BB:
George's charisma
spirit of opression
'willing to kind of lay my own "red flags" of warning aside to give him the benefit of the doubt.'

Other "outsiders", who visited the Ottawa assembly occasionally, have read the Web-site and commented that the Ottawa assembly was definitely Geftakysized.  Yet Ottawa claims that it was not affected by Fullerton because of distance. 

Marcia

The simple fact of the matter is that when I spend 17 years of my life truly thinking that I am an awesome Christian, involved in one of the few churches that takes the NT pattern seriously, and notice that I know my bible better than most....when I am so proud of all that...it's really hard to entertain the idea that I was wrong about plenty of stuff, most importantly that I had a false view of myself and my own spirituality.

It's tempting to maintain the idea that I really am a spiritual stud, and that the church built by George was a wonderful place but that George stumbled a little.    I feel better this way, and am not so embarrassed.

Brent

[M2]

The simple fact of the matter is that when I spend 17 years of my life truly thinking that I am an awesome Christian, involved in one of the few churches that takes the NT pattern seriously, and notice that I know my bible better than most....when I am so proud of all that...it's really hard to entertain the idea that I was wrong about plenty of stuff, most importantly that I had a false view of myself and my own spirituality.

It's tempting to maintain the idea that I really am a spiritual stud, and that the church built by George was a wonderful place but that George stumbled a little.    I feel better this way, and am not so embarrassed.

Brent

My observation, and this is generally speaking and applies to all locations, is that those who left evangelical gatherings to join an assembly somehow have more difficulty seeing the "evil" of the Geftakys assembly system.  Maybe it involved a compromise of conscience when they first joined ....  They are now the most staunch supporters for assembly continuance and keep others poor ones in bondage too.

Marcia

P.S. It is the 11th hour, deadline is the 30th, and I've got to go and do our income tax.
Marcia

[vernecarty]

The fact is we were wrong, and a simple, humble person who didn't think they were very discerning figured it out. 

That's the demonic fog, the spider web.  The people who are most blind to it are those who have the pride of the deeper life.  They don't even see it, and can't begin to consider it, because they are so convinced that they clearly hear God speak, etc.  I know, because I was one....as were many of my friends.

Brent

There was a homeless guy coming to the Bible study in Champaign. I cannot remember his name.
I must have been starting to reject the attitudes of some around me for I had my own apartment at this time and I knew the guy was sleeping on the streets. I inquired of the "responsible brothers" if they were trying to help him in any way.
They of course had to check with George.
While they were figuing out what to do I had him stay at my place for several weeks.
My condition was that he had to show me that he had been to at least three places looking for work when I got home every day. At first he tried, but then simply sat in the apartment the entire day so I eventually asked him to find another place to stay. I think he had a drug problem but I am not sure. There may have also been some psycholgical issues.
I mention this because I think in the assemblies there was an underlying cruelty to the weak and needy that was really heart-breaking. It was an attitude that I think came directly from George and Betty. You can still see this predatory spirit in his disciples.
I think Brent has hit on a critical point.
I have oftern wondered if Satan ever considered that his rebellion was perhaps not such a good idea after all, considering the One he is going up against.
I think it is this apparent inability, whether because of spirutual bondage or other reasons that is so stunning to me.
Anyone who was involved with the assemblies, who recruited others to be involved, or in any way aided and abeted establishment of the legitimacy of George and Bety Geftakys, yet cannot simply admit:

"We were wrong!"

is a person in my mind incapable of true repentance.

Other "outsiders", who visited the Ottawa assembly occasionally, have read the Web-site and commented that the Ottawa assembly was definitely Geftakysized.  Yet Ottawa claims that it was not affected by Fullerton because of distance. 

Marcia

I am afraid it does not work that way. Some folk have moved a continent away in an attempt to escape their dark past, only to discover they had carried it with them.
I believe the man's influence persists.
Verne

p.s. the homeless guy's name was Kevin...anybody from Champaign remember him?

[vernecarty]

The simple fact of the matter is that when I spend 17 years of my life truly thinking that I am an awesome Christian, involved in one of the few churches that takes the NT pattern seriously, and notice that I know my bible better than most....when I am so proud of all that...it's really hard to entertain the idea that I was wrong about plenty of stuff, most importantly that I had a false view of myself and my own spirituality.

It's tempting to maintain the idea that I really am a spiritual stud, and that the church built by George was a wonderful place but that George stumbled a little.    I feel better this way, and am not so embarrassed.

Brent

I think the Lord used the crisis at CAC to deal with some residual issues of spiritual "pride of association".
I really loved the C& MA, I have never met so many wonderful Christians as the ones I did at our missions conferences and when I attended general counsel. I was at least wise enough to seek out the counsel of other Godly men at the time and the elders at the Gibson City Bible Church provided a place of refuge and real comfort. I owe them a tremendous debt of gratitude. I am still involved by way of music minsitry even though we are not officially attending there ( a few of you have inquired about the "going from church to church accusation).
It was interesting that the leadership at Gibson city around the same time had dismissed a youth pastor for misusing the internet. Nuff said.
I am amazed at how the Lord orders our lives. Montse had been scheduled to begin a Sabattical in Spain and so was spared a lot of the ugliness.

I have to smile when I hear some folk accuse others of wanting a place spiritually.
This kind of talk has to come from the mind of an incredible spiritual simpleton.

There is not a person alive, with even a shred of spiritual intelligence, who would covet a place that God has not prepared them for.  It is tanamount to suicide spiritually.

There was also a time, when those who had failed to adorn the doctrine in their own lives, would humbly acknowldge their lack of fitness to instruct others. Not so today. People no longer have any shame whatsoever.

Clearly this was George's problem.
He once boasted to me about the "power" he had by pointing to a picture of all the people taken during one of his seminars. This preoccupaton with works and personal glory is Satanic, pure and simple.
It is so interesting how some folk reveal their own inner corruption.
Verne

[editor]

Everyone who has come to Christ believes what they feel and enjoy little reality for quite a long time.  That is what is called "first things" and that is normal.  People are not born adults.  Growing up is painful.  The same is true of spiritual growth.  People are not spiritual when they first come to Christ.  Actually, I believe that spiritual birth doesn't come until later in the experience of a believer.  One does begin to believe, but most of what they believe of their salvation is based upon the "knowledge of good and evil."  The life of the believer begins in the womb.  They are enclosed and protected and are fed.  They cannot yet eat for themselves.   

Also, I believe I've seen that people buy into churches that reflect their own character.  People gravitate toward men who compliment their already honed strengths.  Not many people are drawn to a fellowship that makes them feel out of place.  Thus, when one is impressed with a leader, they know one thing....if I sit under this man - I will one day be like him....something, as you say, Brent, to be proud of.  George was somewhat of an  intellectual and taught the Word like a college professor would teach a course.  Many were drawn thereby which, yes, fed their pride.  People who are proud of their knowledge would naturally buy into George's particular brand.  Eventually many who intellectualize the Word, fall.  Then, as you are experiencing, you come into reality.... real deeper life with Christ.  Christ is not shallow is He? 

Discerning sexual sin might be close to impossible.  History shows that many godly men and women have missed it - and when it was right under their noses.  This doesn't mean that the Word didn't go out and accomplish what it was sent to do.  The Word is a living and powerful instrument and it works upon His counterpart - the Bride or the souls of the redeemed.  George preached the Word.  How could he miss.  His failure did you a favor.  The Word still stands, doesn't it?

The present deception is that God was not in control of His people in the Assemblies and that man was.  Church leaders have always hurt God's people.  Even the most well meaning leaders hurt God's people. 

Regarding the deeper life.  I left fellowship in the Assembly because of a hunger for deeper life.  That hunger made me leave shallow superficial "first things" or legalism.  How did I know that I needed a change in diet?  Milk didn't satisfy any longer.  The deeper life authors you mentioned...you will be hard pressed to find more godly and spiritually insightful authors than some of those you mentioned.  I have not always found these authors palatable, but at one point when I grew, nothing short of deeper teachings satisfied.  You perhaps have been "stung" since George taught some of what you classify as deeper life.  Believe me, George rejected true deeper life teachings and could not relate to Madam Guyon's teachings.  It bothered him when I asked questions about concepts that conflicted with what he taught and what M. Guyon wrote.  He liked to quote her on occasion, but he did not accept her teachings.  He said to me once when I brought up once again another question re. M. G. while we talked in private - "You aren't still reading that stuff are you."  That is an exact quote.  So, no, George did not follow deeper life.  George was intent upon building churches or assemblies.  Problem is, God is building temples, not churches.

There was little in the assembly that was about deeper life.  God is deep.  Maybe the term is being used wrongly - otherwise, I just don't get it.  God is deep and God is not deceived.  When people are deep in God - can they be deceived?  Light is understanding.  So those who dwell in darkness do not have spiritual understanding.  That is normal for young believers.  They think they are wise, yet are still foolish.  But those who have gone through a spiritual death have come out into the light and have new understanding....they are reborn....as it were.

Sondra

p.s.  IMO, you can be very proud of what you have gained in the Spirit....not because of what you know or thought you knew that would help you in a Bible quiz, but because of what you know of the Cross through your own shed blood in fellowship with our Lord.  The reality and real meaning to the scriptures gets written upon our hearts.  We, MOL, become the epistles and that is truly something to be exalted about.  Mary said, "My soul doth magnify the Lord."  Then it is a time of triumph.  This is a winning of a crown.  This is a time to turn and strength your brother because you have endured through to the end.  We will not let it end though if, in returning from the war, we will not go forward and enjoy all that we have bled and given limbs for.   

Hi Sondra,

I agree and applaud your wisdom in leaving when you did.  You saw lack of true spiritual growth and power, and thought you would be better of elsewhere.  You were certainly right!

I also agree with you regarding the tendency for people to gravitate towards things that are comfortable, etc.  Absolutely true.

However, I have a problem with the whole deeper life thing, as you know.  Nevertheless, thank you for the kind words, I really appreciate it.

Brent