Weird Teachings

[editor]

Sondra, I do not know why the Jones and Koresh followers had a different ending than the Geftakys assemblies.  I do know, however, that the assemblies' ending was not because of our discernment.  In fact there are still some who are lamenting the loss of the "good ole days".

God bless,
Marcia

The Geftakys Assemblies have not ended.  That's the first thing to get straight.

Koresh and Jones both broke away from the "fringe" and became even more extreme, about 10 years prior to their end. 

We don't know how and where the Geftakys Assembly will end, but I am certainly glad that I'm not part of it.

Brent

[vernecarty]

I'm not sure who is deleting Ruth's (Sondra's) posts, except that I'm sure I'm not doing it.


Deleting unpleasant, or even slightly rude speech isn't warranted, and I really don't think that either of her deleted posts were profane, blasphemous or rude.  They were opinionated and abrasive, but no more so than many of my posts, or even Tom's for that matter.


Brent

I think the moderators are trying to find a balance. We after-all, do have some history to consider.
I thik Tom has made it clear that any posts that demean, deride, or unfairly attack and/ or characterize other posters ought not to be permitted. We all get occasionally get excited in the heat of the moment but none of us engage in this pattern of posting in a consistent manner.
The BB has by an large been a place of civility even in the face of occasional strong disagreement. I think we all would like to keep it that way.
Verne

[M2]

The Geftakys Assemblies have not ended.  That's the first thing to get straight.

Koresh and Jones both broke away from the "fringe" and became even more extreme, about 10 years prior to their end. 

We don't know how and where the Geftakys Assembly will end, but I am certainly glad that I'm not part of it.

Brent

re-stating what I posted before:

Sondra, I do not know why the Jones and Koresh followers had a different ending than the fallen Geftakys assemblies.  I do know, however, that the assemblies' ending was not because of our discernment.  In fact there are still some individuals who are lamenting the loss of the "good ole days".

However, those existing assemblies that remain faithful to George might end similarly to the Jones and Koresh followings.

God bless,
Marcia

P.S.  my 2 cents re. post deleting matter:

Sondra was offended and stated her offense.  IMHO I do not feel that her post meritted deletion.  What if she was right after all?  We know she was wrong but it is true that GG and his servants could not take criticism and promoted a code of silence.  By deleting her post, we may be guilty of doing the same.

There are other posters who use offensive language too, and it will be difficult to draw the line if a precedent is set here.

God bless,
Marcia

[Oscar]

All,

I deleted Sondra's posts because of her past history.  Sondra has demonstrated that she will, if allowed to, disrupt the board and tie it up in personal wrangeles that go on ad infinitum.

Recall, if you will, what she did to Joe Sperling.  Joe made an innocuous joke about "what about those Braves" or some such team.  Sondra read it as a viscious personal attack and raged at Joe in post after post. 

Joe attempted to explain...rejected.  Sondra had discerned the true meaning of what he said. 

Joe apologized...to no avail.

Others interceded on Joe's behalf.   But Sondra would not stop until she had fully vented her spleen.  A spleen which, btw, had refilled itself pretty quickly after its extended venting aimed at Verne, who at least had done something to attract her wrath.

In that case, you will recall, I started a thread where she could speak her mind and defend herself.

Until it turned into vicious attacks on any and all who dared to disagree with her.

Please note that I did not delete any of her "deeper life" posts above.  Although when I read such things I do not know whether to laugh or cry, it still remains posted.

The reason is that they are about ideas that can be legitimately discussed even in disagreement.  They are not about ugly accusations and attacks on people's personalities, motives, and spiritual state.

In the past "flamers" have been kicked off the board by others.  Flamers come to boards to start fights that consume the board in interpersonal wrangles.

Posting ideas, arguing for a position, counter arguing....fine.

Flaming designed to ruin the board....not fine.

Thomas Maddux

[editor]

Hi Marcia,

Re. the Koresh/Jones end to the saints still in fellowship in the Assemblies - isn't that rather difficult to speculate?  I could say that because I gained 5 pounds over the last 5 weeks that in a year I am pretty sure I am going to put on another 260 lbs.  Well, maybe.  But I don't think that is going to happen.  It's really hard to make those predictions.  Speculations get thrown out there that builds a case on what?  We don't know what God will do.  God can do surprising things.  Why predict the negative?  Why not get on a path of believing God for great things because He is a great God?  One principle we do know....nothing happens apart from faith (which works by God's Love).  Great faith is even better.  If you love those folks with God's love - shouldn't we believe God for them and accomplish some things through our Love and Faith?  

I went through a frustrating time in my life when I began to call God on His Word.  I implied that I thought God was a liar and was not true.  When I began to be honest with Him, He began to reveal to me why I wasn't getting my prayers answered.  I'm still working on that, but I can tell you, I found that one key was my words.  If we speak negatively - we will get negative and our prayers fall to the ground.  If we speak positive words of  joy and believe God for great things - often I am surprised to find better than I asked for.  

Generating fear of what awful thing is next doesn't help, IMO.  And you might hit something with a grenade type prediction, but generally it doesn't happen.  It does make good sound-byte though.

Sondra

While it's true that no one can predict the future, most people can learn from the past.  The fact that there is a certain pattern that the Koresh/Jonestown/Heaven's Gate type groups all follow is not in dispute.

Doctrinally, they were different, but culturally they all shared shockingly similiar practices.  Plenty of books are written about this stuff, all of them well researched and documented.

George's assembly has been travelling down the same path, just not as far as the one's mentioned above.  Of course, at one time Koresh and Applewhite weren't as bad as they eventually became....

Sondra, did you spend most of your church going life in the Assembly, or did you attend another place for several years?

The reason I ask, is because perception is everything.

Brent

[editor]

I'm not sure what you are asking and what you mean by "perception is everything," but no, I was raised in a Nazarene Church.  Well, my parents were Pentecostals, but I chose to go to a Nazarene Church where my piano teacher went and my parent's dropped me off and picked me up.  I was saved through my piano teacher when I was 11 years old and baptized in a muddy river nearby.  I left the Lord and the church when I was 17 years old.  The guilt drove me nuts.  There were no teachings that helped me to know how to walk with God apart from a strict legalism.  Of course, I got this at home too. 

I told the Lord that if He would give me a way to live a Christian life without the torment, that I would return to Him.  He did and I did....through the teachings of the Assembly.  My Realtor friend who called me to tell me about her newfound Christian renewal told me about the Assembly.  I told her that I just couldn't live it.  She said, "that's the good part - He has grace.  He can do it for you."  I had never heard this before, but I felt that God was calling my promise due.  I went out to Oak Park and was simply amazed that so many believers knew the Lord and knew Him well.  The love in their midst won me.  Good Christians grossed me out, but they loved me and truly cared about me and I knew it.  I saw the Lord in them.

Sondra

p.s.  Specific question:  What do you mean when you say "perception is everything?"

Well, in answer to your question, many people have different ideas of what normal is.  For example,  I know a guy who grew up with hippie parents.  They lived at  The Esalen Institute in Big Sur, CA.

He and his parents went naked most of the time.  He grew up with naked people all around him, all the time.  

He wears clothes now, and is a decent, ethical person.  He is also a massage therapist, and works on naked people all the time.  No big deal to him at all.

Contrast that with someone who grew up Amish, or Muslim.

That's what I'm talking about when I said perception is everything.

What I was wondering was something like this.

You came back to God in the Assembly.  (so did I).  Your previous church experience was negative.  (mine was too)

You learned how to walk with The Lord in the Assembly, a good thing.
You left in order to grow more....again, all good.
You mention repeatedly that modern christianity is shallow, or lacking in one way or the other,

so....

your perception of things might cause you to think the Assembly was good, because it was good for you, in your estimation.

Contrast that with one of the many AK's who have told their story.  To them, the Assembly was living hell, and your old Nazarene church would seem like heaven.  

Most of us fall somewhere in between.  However, if we attempt to look at things objectively, hearing the story from all sides, reading the literature that was put out by George, recalling the things that were said and done, we begin to see a picture, and it's not a pretty one.

CAgirl had it way worse than my kids did.  Judy suffered far more than Suzie.  George made more money than Jim Heyman...perception is everything.  However, inspite of all the blind men feeling something different, they all have their hands on an elephant.

All I'm trying to do by asking this is determine where you are coming from, and get to know you better.  

People who don't know me might have a very different impression about who I am if all they knew about me was what they read on the BB here.  They may not know that I am up several thousand dollars over the last two weeks from poker, or that my daughter won a county writing award, or that one of my sons is a really good wrestler, etc.

So, I am just trying to get to know you better, because it helps me to understand where you are coming from.

Brent

[editor]

No, I love the Lord's people, but I do believe that many are lazy and do not "seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness FIRST."  People are busy.  Ok.  That's ok, but we set our hearts and wills on what we love the most.  That seems to be the long and the short of it.  I guess I don't have a lot of interest in discussing precious things that I have labored hard to find with people who are mildly interested.  Something about pearls and swine....but I have all of the time in the world and all of the energy in the world to share what I know with those who really are working hard themselves to learn more about who God is and how to access Him.

Thanks Sondra,

I like what you said below, I would just bring up the quote above.  Remember that Jesus associated with the weak, sick, unclean and lukewarm. 

He condescended to us.  Search yourself and see if you don't have a tendency to get in the flesh when people aren't serious enough.  I have my own hot buttons that cause me to get riled up.

Brent

[editor]

I have never read that the Lord hung around with the "lukewarm."  The Lord of Revelation said, I would that you were cold or hot - that the lukewarm He would spew out of His mouth.  That doesn't sound to me to be someone the Lord would hang around with.

Yup.

I feel much the same way when it comes to the homeless. 

As for the lukewarm, let me rephrase that.  Jesus hung out with many people that were flakey, and inconsistent in their committment.  Peter comes to mind.  In revelation, He is near enough to the lukewarm to give them a prophetic warning.  He still loves them, and is near by.

Is it good to be lukewarm?  Of course not.  But if the Lord goes out to them, I will too.  That's all I meant.  In no way did I mean to say that it was good to be lukewarm....it's certainly not.

Brent

[CAGirl]

Hey Yall,
   Sorry to cut in here on the debate of the current assembly’s demise but I had a “Weird Teaching” pop into my head and wondered if anyone remembered it. Being a teenager and really not to interested in my grandpa's latest scheme to control, I never took the time to understand his teachings on levels of heaven. What I do remember is this. It was something to the effect that the more committed to God you were the higher you place in heaven would be. It was explained to me by Betty I think that in my case, my mom and dad could have a higher place in heaven than me and that would leave me separated from them for eternity. I remember the teaching going so far as to say that if you were not committed enough to God it was possible to go to heaven but be separated from Him. Almost like a popularity thing. You would be in heaven but have to “sit at the loser’s table” What was that about? 

[vernecarty]

Hey Yall,
   Sorry to cut in here on the debate of the current assembly’s demise but I had a “Weird Teaching” pop into my head and wondered if anyone remembered it. Being a teenager and really not to interested in my grandpa's latest scheme to control, I never took the time to understand his teachings on levels of heaven. What I do remember is this. It was something to the effect that the more committed to God you were the higher you place in heaven would be. It was explained to me by Betty I think that in my case, my mom and dad could have a higher place in heaven than me and that would leave me separated from them for eternity. I remember the teaching going so far as to say that if you were not committed enough to God it was possible to go to heaven but be separated from Him. Almost like a popularity thing. You would be in heaven but have to “sit at the loser’s table” What was that about? 

BALDERDASH! Don't even sweat it. The only person sitting at a looser's table is going to be George himself...and it probably won't be in heaven...
Verne

[CAGirl]

Verne,
   Thanks for trying to comfort me. I KNOW I’m not at the loser’s table. I’m not nervous about my place in heaven at all. I’m just wondering if anyone (maybe from SLO) remember this teaching and if this is even remotely believed by main stream Christians? But BALDERDASH is well said. 

[moonflower2]

Hey Yall,
You would be in heaven but have to “sit at the loser’s table” What was that about? 

There are no losers in heaven. We are all winners, won at the cross. It's heaven because He is there. "I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, you may be also". 

[Mark C.]

Hi Sondra!

  I don't often get a chance to visit the BB during the week and was surprised to discover that one of  your post's was deleted; I believe it was a post of yours that was responding to one I made where I asked a number of questions re.: "GG gave us the word of God and so did us good."

  I also think that I saw a quote from that post of yours that suggested that I was saying that I thought you had a demon---- This was not my opinion, nor was I attacking you personally.

  I asked a lot of questions in that post of mine because I wanted to be clear as to what you were trying to say, not to win any kind of debate (I just don't care about that kind of thing).

  Maybe if I shared some of my history with you it would help you understand my perspective on your views of "inner life."

  At a young age (12) I had already read, "Walden Pond" by David Thoreau, and also eagerly ate up other Transcendentalist authors.  I was a hippie in spirit before the movement began and gave my heart and soul to transcending the mundane and entering into a deeper spiritual life.

  This was not merely some kind of scholar's pursuit for me, but one where I pursued with great intensity actual experiences.

 This inner pathway to higher awareness and spiritual power was achieved by considerable effort--- I fasted long and often, sometimes spent days in meditation, and generally applied myself to lose self----- You see, in Eastern religion death to self is the key to inner peace and spiritual power.

  And, it does indeed work!  I achieved a considerable level of inner control and mastery over self.  This is what some would call "holiness" and they also would consider it a good thing (in contrast to something like Black Magic.)  I considered myself, and so did many others, as a very good person with a strong devotion to higher spiritual values.

  The power I started to gain from my deeper life experiences started to scare me, and eventually stirred my conscience, causing me to consider the message of the Bible.

  I do not believe that I was demon possessed, but when I started to think that what I was doing was wrong I became very heavily oppressed by some spiritual force.

  There is much more of what I could share, but I hope that you can see why I get alarmed when I hear from you what I think is a Christianized version of the inner path that I followed prior to salvation.

  I know a major difference is that you name the name of Christ, but so have a number of mystic religions from the past, such as the Gnostics, but as Paul says it is really a "pseudo Christ."

   Before you get all riled at the last paragraph I am not saying that you are a Gnostic, or preach a "pseudo Christ," but somtimes it sure sounds like my former religious pursuit.

  I need to make some important distinctions re. what I now believe to be "deep" spirituality vs. my Eastern mystic days and Assembly thinking/experiences.  I would like to expand on my experiences in the Assembly and after leaving it, in regard to "deeper life", if you are willing to discuss this with me.  I will try not to be rude or offend you, but I am not willling to sacrafice the truth in that effort--- there's simply too much at stake here.

                                            God Bless,  Mark C.
     

[Mark C.]

Hi Sondra,

   I feel like my "tone" is the same as it was on the first post, but if you thought I was calling you "demon possessed"  on the prior one that could certainly be perceived as a negative.  It most certainly is not my intention to be sarcastic or ridicule you.

   As to "demon influence vs. possession": 

   A lot of what we think is spiritual (either demonic or divine) is just psychological in nature.  That does not mean that how we think/believe/perceive/act can't be traced back to an evil spiritual force.

   Without the devil/demons we have physic abilities as humans; some have more and others less.  We have a subconscious that senses things, and to this day I still have a very heightened sensitivity to "the psychic atmosphere" around me.  When we rely on this human ability we can at times discover it is useful, but it is an open door to demonic influence, or just entering a private world of delusion.

   The long and short of how to avoid getting onto the wrong side of this psychic (in the biblical sense of psychic--the soul) activity is a willingness to test the inner voice with the truth of the bible and advice from outside our inner world.  Our inner abilities are a very complicated mixed bag that carries heavy amounts of skewed perceptions--- in other words our inner world is an untrusty source for a basis for knowing God.

   The latter, not in the Assembly sense of "seeking counsel," but as in the James exhortation to be "easily entreated."  An angry rejection of those suggesting that the inner voice you hear may not be from God is a sure sign of trouble for the believer--- this is not being easily entreated, and again as James says it is therefore a very bad sign--- i.e., sensual (soulish) wisdom from below.)

   Humility is a sure sign of spirituality, and in a later post I would like to share an example of what I mean by this.  However, right now I also have a devilish task to perform, as my wife is forcing me to clean out the garage!!!!!   Husbands are a very abused class in America!!   No my wife is not demon possessed, but I think that the garage might be!!

                                                  God Bless,  Mark C.

[summer007]

CAGirl, This sounds like Purgatory from Roman Catholicism with GG giving it a fresh spin/twist. Summer.