????? WHY ?????

[al Hartman]

                             ?????  WHY  ?????

     For years, the saints in the assemblies have watched their brothers and sisters trickle away from fellowship and asked themselves "Why?"  Why do they abandon the Lord's testimony, the Lord's work?  Why do they wander out from under the Lord's covering?  Why can't we reach out to them, or pray with them and try to lead them back into the fold?
     Some have asked the leadership "Why?" and usually doubted the answers they received and, often as not, regretted having asked.
     Most, possibly all, have asked the Lord, "Why?" and are still wondering.  Perhaps they didn't hear his answer.  Perhaps he hasn't answered...  yet.

     For years, saints have left the assemblies, then looked back toward their brethren who chose to remain and asked "Why?"  Why don't they see the corruption, the falseness?  Why won't they answer our calls to fellowship with them and pray with them?  Why can't they trust the Lord, and let him lead them out?
     Some have asked the brothers and sisters still in the assemblies "Why?"  They have wondered why they get no response.
     Many, perhaps all, have asked the Lord, "Why?" and wonder yet today.  Did they miss hearing his reply?  Or has he not replied at all...  yet?


                          !!!!!  WHY NOT  !!!!!

     To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heavens...  He has made everything beautiful in his time...           Ecclesiastes 3:1, 11

     My purpose (being one of those under the heavens) in this essay is to skip over the nuts and bolts-- the specific reasons that specific saints did the specific things they did-- and address the greater principles that govern why you are where you find yourself at this time.

Saints Who Left the Assemblies:  
     One vital reason why some didn't leave as you did is that there might be a living testimony, for YOU to see, of the sufficiency of God to sustain his little ones in any situation.  
     In the past two weeks i have heard separately from two dear couples, each of whom have been in the assemblies for about thirty years...  and they still love the Lord...  and they are still able to rejoice in his salvation.  Now, amidst an upheaval among the leadership-- within the very structure-- of the assemblies, they are concerned, saddened, but still trusting God to protect and to guide them.
     God sustains them there, in part that YOU who left may see that he is greater than our understanding; that he doesn't have to have the same plan for each of us.  He wants you to know that when you heard him say "Follow me," it was not to start a game of follow-the-leader.  He was speaking to YOU in particular.  He calls Each of us, not ALL of us at once.
     Now is a time for you who left and have been beiseged by doubts and fears, and beset with depression and anxiety, to behold the faithful who stayed behind:  As the "canopy" over the assemblies is torn and blown away by the winds of the Spirit of Truth, they are still under God's covering (as you are also); still trusting him (as you also may).

Saints Who Remained In the Assemblies:
     Why did some leave?  Some departed because they had been terribly abused; others because they witnessed the abuses and could not countenance them.  Some discovered deceit and wilful sin among the leadership, and found that the guilty were unwilling to confront their transgressions, confess and repent.
     Perhaps a few ran away, but most allowed God to lead them out, and he had a purpose in that for YOU:
     You may witness their lives today and see that there is life and grace, godliness, peace and joy beyond the assemblies.  God is greater than man's interpretation of him;  greater than a 24/7 regimen that DEMANDS our full devotion;  so great that he reveals his Person to us and INVITES our devotion and welcomes it.

All Saints:
     The veil has been torn from top to bottom.  You are free to fellowship together with your beloved brethren.   Those who were forbidden are forbidden no longer.  Welcome and embrace one another.
     Spiritual ground rules still apply:  You, yourself, personally must still follow the Lord.  This is not a new blueprint to be followed in place of an old one.  It is a One-on-one commitment on his part, and requires a one-on-One trust on your part.

     Wherever you are and whatever you have been doing, God has been preparing you for reconciliation.  You have something from God that your brother, your sister is waiting to receive.
     ...and who knows whether you have come to the kingdom for such a time as this?             Esther 4:14d


For the love of God,
brother al


     

[Joe Sperling]

Al----

I don't think it's right anyone use a mocking tone towards
another on this BB--as it appears that John Malone has
done. But Al, I do have to say I am a bit confused by what you posted also. It sounds like your saying that being in the Assembly or out of the Assembly are both the will of God and this I can't believe to be true. When you say "the faithful who stayed behind" I become even more confused.
But perhpas I am just misinterpreting what you are trying to say. I believe George's excommunication, the exposing of so many wrongs are God's work of undoing something that was never his will in the first place. Those who left knew something was wrong, that God was being stifled there and that they had to leave. "The faithful who stayed behind" are people who stayed behind for various reasons: they liked being in a place where they could be in authority, they were too intimidated to leave, or they had just been there for so long they felt they had no where else to go. But I truly believe that everyone in the Assembly sensed something was wrong and always felt uneasy there. I know I did for sure, and that uneasy feeling always returns to me when I remember the Assembly. I met some wonderful people, and I can't say that my whole experience there was in suffering, but I can say that a certain uneasiness was always there. I KNEW in my heart that the place did not represent what God wanted. I knew that because of the supreme legalism and the suffering of his sheep all around me, and a lot of the hypocrisy I saw. Again, Al, maybe I'm misunderstanding your post or what is your true intention. But keep on sharing---it's great to see all points of view on any topic. god bless you Al.   --Joe

[Joe Sperling]

Al---

I noticed I said "god bless you" with a little "g"--what I meant to say was GOD bless you AL!!

--Joe

[al Hartman]

John Malone, Sr. and Joe Sperling,

     Thanks for your responses, which should surely inspire some further discussion by others.

     For the record, i personally would love to see all the saints delivered from the bondage that the assemblies (or lodges-- a rose, by any other name...) represent.  But that won't happen in this life because of the fallibility of human nature.
     As a boy, growing up in suburban/rural Ohio, i saw flocks of birds that sometimes numbered in the thousands.  They would cover a field, or fill all the trees in a woods, and then they would, as with one mind, take flight.  They would all fly the same direction, wheeling left, right, climbing, descending again, at extremely close quarters, but with complete and total unity-- never a collision, and never a stray.  Birds do that-- people do not.  Birds CAN do that-- people cannot.
     Moses led the entire nation out of Egypt, but because God spoke only to Moses, the people went quickly astray.  They found worship of a statue preferable to accepting God's word second-hand, even from the godliest man on earth.
     Fortunately for us, in this dispensation of God's grace, we are EACH saved by personal faith in and acceptance of Jesus Christ.  He enters EACH of our lives, speaks to EACH of our hearts, individually.  Why is that such a good thing?
     Because people are as different as snowflakes-- no two of us are exactly alike.  We don't act alike, nor think alike, nor even hear the gospel alike!  So one saint's heart is touched by Jesus' crucifixion, another by his resurrection, another by a parable, a healing, an exorcism.  Do we care?  Shall we correct them?  "No, Brother!  You can't be REALLY saved until you follow the steps i took!"
     i once attended a church where no one would accept that i had been saved because the date, time and place of my acceptance of Christ wasn't written down on the flyleaf of my bible.
     i hope we rejoice in every soul who confesses Jesus Christ as his/her Savior and Lord.  But we must accept that he deals with EACH of us according to our capacity to hear  him, to receive his word, to understand it, to apply it to our lives in a practical way.  And no two of us are even capable of doing this precisely the same.

     So, there are those in the assemblies/lodges today who have loved Christ to the extent of their vision; who are not in leadership positions; who have mistreated no one, offended no one; who wish only to please and to serve God.  Are they there because God led them there?  Or because he allowed them to err?  i am truly sorry, my Brothers (and Sisters), but i am not wise enough to know the mind of God-- to interpret his will for every child of his.  
     i do know that he gives different gifts-- different ministries-- to us.  If a sinner wanders into an assembly/lodge meeting, listens to what is said, and receives Jesus Christ unto his salvation, do we accept that God led him/her to this time and place?  Or do we chalk it up as a fortunate "accident?"

     It is surely a fact that there are new believers among both camps; the "innies" and the "outies."  Someone has to be near at hand to encourage them-- to guard their newborn spiritual sensitivities against distraction from the confusions that abound all around them.  That is why i believe there are faithful saints at all stages of spiritual development in every place at all times (as needed).

Brother Joe,
     Does this clarify my message somewhat?  If not, please be patient with me, and pray for my eyes to be opened, as i know you do for the saints and for yourself.  Rejoice.

Brother John,
     You are my brother if you have truly received Jesus Christ into your life.  Regretably, this is not evident in the tenor of your response (to date, i have not read any other posts of yours that i recall.  i shall seek to remedy that forthwith).
     Perhaps, if i were as learned and as wise as you appear to believe you are, i would also have the joy of the Lord and love toward his saints that you display.  
     John, if you had any idea how much your attitude (as expressed in your response, below) mimics that of George Geftakys in the early days of the Fullerton assembly, you would repent in sackcloth and ashes!  If any brother dared speak anything that differed from what George said, George would mock and ridicule that brother in public ministry.  When one doubts the "gripping" power and effect of his own words, he must deride the words of his peers, in order to gain and hold his control over others.  
     i was with the Geftakys's since before the assembly at Fullerton began-- from 1969-1980-- and speak from personal knowledge.  You may freely ask "Who is this guy?"  There are several people on this BB who can tell you about me.
     Be at peace, dear John.  God reigns on high.  i share your desire to see that reign expressed in all the earth:  it will bring destruction to his enemies, and peace, joy, love and all good things to those who love him.  Rejoice.


For the love of God,
brother al

[al Hartman]

     
     Bill, i really don't lose much sleep over whether a guy who presents himself to God's people as "Mr. Knucklehead" takes me seriously!  But thanks for checking in...

al

[Sebastian Andrew]

Greetings Mr. Hartman:
We  would disagree on a number of things, but I take your posts seriously and respect your opinion. I hope you will post more. Yours are seasoned.

Sebastian Andrew

[Gretchen Honan]

Al-

I always remember you as a kind and caring man.  Your posted message displays that character still.  Thank you dear brother for loving Christ, clinging to Him and being content to not know all the answers of how He works- but knowing He does.  

I have a distinct and powerful memory of you and your oldest daughter many, many years ago.  We were at a park at a fellowship, or something, and she was running toward you.  You had your eyes fixed on her.  Part way there she fell and started to cry.  Instead of rushing to her (she was not hurt), you lovingly coaxed her saying "get up, get up darling.  Don't quit you can do it."  Never taking your eyes of love off of her.  She got up, cught your eyes, broke into a smile and ran to you.  That so impressed me then and now of the way our dear Lord Jesus looks at us.  Fixed eyes, loving gaze, encouraging words and desire for us to look up and run to Him.

I hope Kathy is well.  The Lord Jesus' blessings on you.

Gretchen Honan

[outdeep]

I posted this a few days ago just seconds after the old bulliten board went down.  So, I will post it again.

Note to Gretchen.  I appreciate your posts.  You are indeed an insightful sister.  I have always respected Chuck Smith but based on what you said, I am not sure he made the right the right decision concerning the Hocking situation.  Where is David Hocking now?  Last I saw, he was attempting another fledging radio ministy.


-Dave - outdeep@yahoo.com

Al,

I do indeed appreciate your word and your shepherding tone is very appropriate.

I think the question you are begging is whether or not God is bigger than our decision to stay in or out of the Assembly.  Each of us make decisions based upon what we think is most prudent to keep in step with God's will for our lifes.  Abraham decided to go down to Egypt to survive the famine and try to feed his family.  He got into problems and God brought him back to the place where he began a somewhat better man (though he had more lessons to learn).

I know that there is a view out there that tries to fit the Assembly into the mold of a serious cult.  They feel that coming out of the Assembly is just as urgent as leaving a homosexual church, the Jehovahs Witnesses, or the Moonies.  

I don't share that view.  Though I always found it helpful to compare Assembly practices with a common list of "characteristics of an abusive church", people need to understand that this is on a continuum.  In real cults, the intensity, false teaching and brainwashing is exponentially more intense, uniform, and intentional (this is why for years you could never get Evangelical watchdog groups to write anything about the Assembly).  The fact that one person got unwillingly deprogrammed by a cult awareness group does does not hold much force when you consider that literally hundreds of people walked away from the Assembly under their own reasoning power.

It should also be noted that the Assembly would score in the 98 percentile against a common list of "characteristics of an evangelical church".

I exchanged an e-mail with a brother who had been looked upon as a weaker brother in Fullerton for years.  He is now a joyful, vibrant witness and wants continue to attend the Fullerton meetings in order to minister to those who are there.  I encouraged him to at least visit some other churches to observe healthy church government and to do some comparison shopping (with a view of effective ministry).  He thought that this was a good idea.

God bless him.  God may use him to help bring something out of the ashes in Fullerton and raise up a group that will impact the world.   Or, in six months, he may come to a dead end, shrug his shoulders and leave.

It's his decision and I respect him either way.  Who am I to say otherwise?

-Dave

[Oscar]

Dave,

Since you were thought of as a "weaker brother" for years, I would conclude that the Great Lights in
Fullerton didn't always get it right.

I'll bet there are many other stories of "back row brethren" in the Assemblies that are leaders
in their healthy churches now.

God bless,

Tom Maddux

[outdeep]

Tom,

That's true.  Sometimes their analysis was not all that off - it was their application.

I was immature and probably wouldn't have made a great leader at the time (certainly not the confrontive unity-keeping type they were looking for anyway).

This stuck home with the situation with Lee Irons.  I lived with Lee and can testify that during his high school years, he was very smart and rather cocky (but, what adolescent doesn't have some character needs?)

You know the story of how George dealt with him - railroading him out and slandering his character.

Years later, I was in West Los Angeles in Westwood village.  There was a group of college students from John MacAuthor's church out witnessing.  I asked them if they knew Lee Irons (as he was a college student in their college group).  They were just overjoyed to speak of Lee's character - "man, he is just awesome.  He has been discipling me and he is such a great guy".  Everyone spoke highly of him.

When Lee went to that church, a caring college leader shepherded Lee, affirmed his giftedness, and gently taught him how to better relate to people.  He was a mentor who was not threatened by Lee (or in competition with him) but helped Lee mature into a man.

Today, Lee is a respected pastor and recently spoke at a conference opposite Os Guinnese.

I don't mind being a weaker brother, but where are the mentors (Steve Irons excepted as he took a personal interest in my life) to teach us how to be stronger?  I don't mind the brothers houses, but when and how do you graduate?

-Dave

P.S.:  Sorry, Al.  I guess we're getting off the subject.

[Arthur]

I don't mind being a weaker brother, but where are the mentors (Steve Irons excepted as he took a personal interest in my life) to teach us how to be stronger?  I don't mind the brothers houses, but when and how do you graduate?

Oh, was that the goal?  Hmm, tell that the 40-year-olds that still sleep in a bunk-bed with another 40-year-old.    One brother wrote something about being made a eunuch for the kingdom of George....man if that isn't one of the saddest things I've ever heard

A helpful mentor is a rare and beautiful find.

[garylwilson]

Dave,  You're not getting off the subject

I was touched by your post of mentors or the lack thereof.
There have been some mentors but maybe they are few and far between.  I can't say I've been one of them.

In our conversing back and forth I think we both have been fortunate to come across several men that had an interest in our souls.

I have several thoughts muddling around in this aging brain of mine.  
WEAKER BROTHER - SISTER:  Could fear of being viewed as such be part of the problem?  You know the desire to be viewed as a success.  Having that highly athletic bent in me can cause that attitude to tug at my heart.  I have been so touched by different ones who are so at ease at discussing their struggles.  
So since I have been one of those that has know lots of failure and lots of struggle, I don't mind being "the weaker one".
I'm making it my claim - call- to his grace. "11 cor 1:26-31"

MENTORING:  Even apart from spending scheduled time with another.  What about just the warmness of a sincere smile,  a honest inquiry about the state of another,  a willingness just "to listen to another - especially in times of pain."  How about a simple "Hey I've been thinking about you - with no strings attached.  
I know a sister who in all my struggles and distance from the Lord would approach me with such warmth.  No 3 point exhortation - not saying we don't need direction at times - but simply say "Brother I'm praying for you.  I want you to know that you have been on my heart. "  This wasn't some contrived "get with the program thing."  I often thought, "If God could give her such a care for me, could it be that He is not done with me.  I know she prayed for me.  I believe God heard her.
MENTORING PART2:  
I must confess that looking back at some relationships it has been easier to "just give someone an answer that I thought they needed to hear".  Hopefully, we can all learn how to listen, to ask questions, to meet the person where they are.  
Maybe from all this we will all be able to value one another.

I see a number of you that demonstrate that in your posts.
Do you know that I am learning from your care.  Hmmm?
Could that  be keyboard mentoring:  Thanks

In His Love and Care

[Gretchen]

Gentlemen -

Here is an interesting list my dear friend Sharman shared with me and challenged me with.  She and I and some Christian woman we work with have been in a bookclub for about 1 1/2 years - reading the works of CS Lewis.  What a blessing.  From that has come real mentoring realtionships.  Especially the men, think do you have those in your life you have given permission to ask you the hard questions - at risk of the friendship?  Here's a part of the list (there are 26 questions and I don't have time to type them, all) - I forget what book this is from.

1) how is your relationship with God right now?
2) what have you read in the Bible the past 2 weeks?
3) where do you find you are resisting Him these days?
4) what habits intimidate you?
5) how are you doing with your spouse? your kids?
6) are you sensing any spiritual attach from the enemy right now?
7) if Satan wanted to invalidate you as a servant or a person, how might he do that?
what is the state of your sexual perspective? tempted? dealing with fantasies? entertanment choices?
9) where are your finances right now? debt? under control? under anxiety?
10) when was the last time you spent time with a good friend of your own gender?
11) do you like yourself at this point in your pilgrimage?
12) what are your greatest confusions about your relationship with God?

You can think of lots more....

[outdeep]

Gretchen,

Your list of questions are very good.  These kind of questions became very popular in some mens groups after the Swaggart/Baker fiascos embarrased the evangelical church.  One group I met with did similar with the last question being "Are you lieing to me now?"  I think I will print them off and take them to a Tuesday morning breakfast I go to.

I enjoy C.S. Lewis and just read Mere Christianity again.  I plan to go through it with my oldest son - two more years before he is out of the house.  Yikes!    

The Great Divorse didn't do much for me.  What is your take on it?   I did just read Screwtape and thought it insightful - perhaps more if I wasn't reading it in the bleachers during a wrestling tournament.

I also gave up very reacently on his autobiographical Surprised by Joy.  It got rather wordy and slow for me.  If you read it and think it is worth another look let me know and I'll give it another go.

[Rudy]

Dave,

I never did care for C.S.Lewis. Hey, that's me. Something along the
line of CSL is the "Ishbane Conspiracy", by Alcorn - Angela, Karina
and of course Randy. It's a mix of adult/teenage battles with two
demons - Foulgrin and his supervisor Ishbane. Very good, not boooring.

Rudy