????? WHY ?????

[Mark Campbell]

Hi All!
  Very good questions indeed!
   Al and Dave: you make a very good point re. labelling the Assembly.  We are talking about individual's; and as such general discussion re. traits of the group will not fairly nor exactly describe every individual.
  But, (you knew it was coming) we can't overlook the examination of the situation with a kind of sweeping "God will overcome" generalization either.  
   I will share an illustration of what I mean:  A Leader in an Assembly who recently "stepped down" and "repented" is now reorganizing the group.  I talked with this Leader and asked him, "what are you repenting of, and what does it mean that you stepped down?
  The Leader shared some particular instances where he had been elitist and authoritarian, but did not answer the question re. his "stepped down/ but still leading" position.  What this person needs most desperately (as well as those he intends to lead/as a non leader) is clarity in what he was involved with as well as clarity in what to teach.  I told him he needs to step down (literally) and to go through de-tox on all of his past Assembly experiences.  Then he needs to sit in a pew and get some instruction on what the basic Gospel of Grace is.  You can never go wrong with being humble! (Hey! I'm an example of this:  From Global Moderator to Newbie! )
  The point is: We must see the errors in the Assembly were systemized and we need to have some kind of principles to help us understand what is "Baby" and what is "Bath Water."
   It is not to find out who is more culpable and to seek revenge on them, but to help restore those hurt in a group that twisted the message of the Gospel of the Grace of God.  The refusual to admit these errors will only lead to the danger of really falling into a clear cultic life.
                                God Bless, Mark  

[Mark Campbell]

Rudy!
  I think you are a little confused.  First you used my name to address me and then attack me for being anon.??
   I have been a part of this BB since it's inception and believe I may have been the first one to post (after Brent).
   If you work for the government I guess that explains it(our tax dollars at work).
                                       God Bless you anyway,  Mark C.

[Mark C.]

Dear Rudy,
  You can't get blood out of a turnip!!
                    Love, the real Mark C.

[Mark C.]

See that Rudy!!
   I humble myself and I am then promoted to Global Moderator.
   Actually, what happened is I had to login, which is something I never had to do on the old BB.  I noticed that we have a whole lot of guests' and few members now and I think that is because you must login everytime to be revealed.
 BTW:  Global Moderator is far more powerful than the IRS!
                        God Bless,  Mark

[al Hartman]

 Just a couple of points here:

     (1.) The topic of WHY / WHY NOT originally addressed the reasons a saint might have left, or stayed in, a local assembly.  My personal conclusions were that we each follow the Lord according to the light we have at any given moment, and that none of us is in a position to judge the earnestness of another's commitment to Christ.
     Some may view it a fine line between "Judge not..." and "By their fruits you shall know them."  My position is that in everything we must look to and trust God to illuminate and guide us, rather than settle on a convenient set of guidelines by which to evaluate everyone and everything.  The guidelines will make us be on our toes at all times-- the looking to and trusting God will keep us on our knees all the time.  i have followed brothers of both persuasions-- i think my preference is evident.

     (2.) Now under new management, the BB has been "cleansed" of the commentary of the Malones, (and possibly others?)  The moderation of this board is a very demanding undertaking, and requires intense commitment and discernment.  Personally, i am not qualified to do it, and do not envy Brian the task before him.  i do appreciate that he is providing this forum for us, and besides praying for his work here, i want to be as supportive as possible.  (Get ready for the inevitable "But")
     But, i must go on record as saying that we have nothing to fear from the words of any "Malones" who may be lurking about.  Understandably, there are concerns that malicious remarks may confuse and taint the minds of young believers.  But that danger is ALWAYS present-- it is why we can't let the BB stand alone, but must PRAY for its successful delivery of the good news.  Weeding out
"offensive" postings won't prevent anyone's misinterpreting the "good" entries.  (Someone took the bible and established the Jehovah's Witnesses upon its misinterpretation-- what will protect our contributions here, if not the Lord's response to our prayers?)
     By removing the Malones' postings from this thread, those remaining (some responding to Malone comments) are rendered MORE subject to misunderstanding, by loss of their contexts.  Besides, these people reveal themselves by the utter lack of Love, Peace and Joy in their writings.  What more need the young ones see, than OUR refusal to respond  in kind?  Rather, in Love and Peace, and Kindness, let us urge these troubled souls to repent.  And (it can't be said too often) to PRAY for these postings, and for those who submit and who read them.

     (3.) Rudy and Mark:  Dear Brothers, you have used up half a page with a personal back-and-forth banter that could have been exchanged as PERSONAL communications, for which this site is set up.  What good does it do for everyone else to have to wade through all that?  (The question is rhetorical, but if you must answer it, please send it to me as a personal communique)
     As a point of information, Mark, on the page where you sign on, there is a box to check that will allow you to be permanently signed-on.

God bless one and all,
al

[Rudy]

Al,

I've used the same arguement regarding how much stuff people had to
wade through on this site. It was made clear to me that this is a public
forum. There is room for seriousness - which i tend to hold to; there is
also room for "banter" - Mark and myself had some fun  
You'll wear yourself out getting irritated about banter on this board.
Most people probably don't read allot of it anyway.

Rudy

[Mark C.]

Hi Al!
  This is the first time you've exhorted me in probably 20 years!
   I understand your concern, but we are trying to figure out how to get settled into the new BB and there is plenty of cyber-space to post serious and non serious.  Sometimes you just got to have a good ol' public laugh at one's self; it's part of the therapy.
  I have been part of BB's, other than this one, for about 10 years and it really does become a kind of community.  There will be serious discussion, banter, post's you wish you could take back, misunderstanding, etc.
   It is okay to admit that I made a mistake or have learned something new, and there needs to be a lot of room made for one another.  In other words: posting is a means of working out, and thinking through out loud what we think and feel.  The process is therapy for the poster more then the production of a perfect result, or the communication of a great insight to readers.  At least that has been my experience.    God bless,  Mark
   

[Mark C.]

Hi Again Al!
  In my last post I only addressed your 3rd point and was hesitant to respond to the first two as I'm not sure exactly what you were trying to say there.  After reading several times I think I might understand, but please correct me if I am off point.
  You mentioned the purpose of the thread which is if one should stay or leave the Assembly.  The way an individual is to decide this is up to their own seeking of the Lord and that general principles will only create an exterior response and/or a man directed obedience vs. a true spiritual decision.  I also understand you to be saying that the balance between "judge not etc." and "by their fruits etc." is impossible for us to discern and that we must depend upon God to give additional light to the one in the Assembly.
  What is Light?  Is it a kind of Quaker idea where we receive an inner intuition and therby God directs us in our lives?  Is ther such a thing as clear propositional truth;  or does the Bible teach one thing one day and another the next?  Is there moral truth, or is that a relative question that only God can discern?
   I think by answering the above questions we might be able to answer the greater "why's" pondered here.
   I believe the discernment of God's will re. the Assembly does not involve much hocus-pocus here, but has some clear objective evidence as to what God is judging and directing.  True, only God can truly bring us to insight, but as the Apostle Paul practiced, it was via some very clear judgments.  As an example consider Paul vs. Peter in Gal. 2.: Here Paul judges Peter to not be walking according to the truth of grace;  he also declares that if the Galatians follow this path they will be cursed.  In Heb.6. we are told to have excercised consciences and we are to discern what is Good and what is Evil.
   God operates in the sphere of conscience and biblical discernment and it is through these means that we grow as mature believers able to teach others also.  There is no super-spiritual pathway around the above.
 God became man and lived in the human sphere of conscience and cognitive reasoning.  He never once taught the suspension of these normal human functions as a means of living our lives and discerning his will.
   For sure, as sinners saved by grace, we must consider our own weakness as we seek to restore others.  We must speak the truth in love, but we must be clear and truthful as to Assembly errors, or we do a disservice to our brethren.               God Bless, Mark

[al Hartman]

In re: my previous posting:

     Sometimes i get carried away trying too hard (?) to get phase one of my point expressed effectively, and forget the following phases completely.  i have not yet disciplined myself to outline my posts as i would spoken ministry.  Guess i'll have to suspend the illusion of my own perfection yet again!  ;o)

     Anyway, my first point was intended to address the question in a couple of posts about "getting off the subject."  Since i concluded that the answer to "WHY / WHY NOT" has to do with the individual saint's following the Lord according to his own understanding, nothing is really off the subject, as that is the crux of the Christian life.
     i'm sure that what i TRY to express comes across to some as an attempt at mysticism.  That's why i so often emphasize prayer as such a key element.  i don't want anyone to grab what they THINK i mean and run with it.  
i believe i have a contribution to make here, and i'm trying to be responsible.  But i always pray for clarity in what i write, and for those who read my entries.
     For me, it's simple: i ask the Lord to guide me, to protect me, to help me to follow him, etc., and i trust in him to keep all his promises.  i take ALL my input before him: the scriptures, written and spoken ministry, personal experience, "brainstorms,"-- everything.  Only he can make my pathway clear to me; my own understanding is wholly inadequate.  i have misinterpreted scripture, and i have listened to others who have done so.  i trust his Holy Spirit to grant me understanding of what is said.  And i believe that to be the way for me to walk with him.  
     i don't find myself in any disagreement with anything in Mark's last post.

     my second point, regarding censorship of the BB was self-explanatory.

     My third point, in which i "took to task" brothers Rudy and Mark, was tongue-in-cheek.  If i were really admonishing them over something serious, i would follow my own advice and contact them privately.  The exception to this would be in the case of a poster who treats the Lord's people badly in a public way-- in that case, a public response may be warranted.
     But Rudy and Mark, you two brothers just feel free to carry on your petty squables publicly to your hearts' content, and explain it all away as being your "right" and being "therapeutic," and whatever other feeble excuses you come up with to waste our time, and i won't say a word against it !!!
     OKAY, EVERYBODY--  THAT LAST PARAGRAPH WAS A JOKE !!!  I DON"T MEAN ANY OF IT--  IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE FUNNY !!!  SO, LIGHTEN UP--  LAUGH A LITTLE !!!

Loving you, because of His love,
brother al

[Mark C.]

Dear Al,
  Well, you sure fooled me!  I thought the ol' Al from the 70's was coming back and you scared the dickens out of me.
  Please put one of them winking smileys next to your next tongue and cheek offering before you give me a heart attack!
  The reason I felt the need to respond re. how we know God's direction is because of a conversation I just had with a present Assm. member who seemed to think that repentance and recovery from the Assembly was some kind of instant transformation.  Forgiveness is instant and the peace that comes is also instant, but understanding the errors of the teaching and practice take time, as well as learning the true gospel and how to walk with Christ.
   I am very happy for your contribution and look forward to more of it, but don't scare me anymore!
                                    God Bless, Mark

[brian]

By removing the Malones' postings from this thread, those remaining (some responding to Malone comments) are rendered MORE subject to misunderstanding, by loss of their contexts.  Besides, these people reveal themselves by the utter lack of Love, Peace and Joy in their writings.  What more need the young ones see, than OUR refusal to respond  in kind?  Rather, in Love and Peace, and Kindness, let us urge these troubled souls to repent.

i appreciate you voicing your concerns. for the record, i did not delete any of john malone's posts. i have not deleted a single post or banned a single member since transferring the board to my server (actually i took great pains to make sure they all arrived intact). i agree that when john deleted his posts he invalidated the discussions he so wholeheartedly participated in, leaving the posts that respond to what he said open to misinterpretation. unfortunately, that is his perogative. this is the second time john has deleted all of his own posts and left.

as for the bigger picture: i think it is important to maintain a non-hostile tone for meaningful debate to take place. bulletin boards are a community, and anarchy never works well in any community setting. the cycle of violence spins its troubles just as effectively in posts as it does in world politics. i don't want anyone in a community i am managing to not post out of fear, unless their fear is that their post is too hostile or harassing. i have seen some really beautiful, meaningful moments in on-line communities, and i'd like to see them here. a few hostile posts can ruin a lot of community.

does that make sense? are there any other questions along these lines?

[karensanford]

Brian, I agree with you on all of it.  There were many times that I wanted to contribute to a discussion, but held back because I knew I would be attacked and accused of venturing to the "boys' side of the playground".  This also was the case with some of my other friends.

Thank you for hosting the BB so that it can continue!!

 ;DKaren

[al Hartman]

Karen:  Amen!

Brian:  My apology-- i had thought that only you could delete posts.  (i am an old geezer, wandering on a young people's playground-- every new discovery in cyberville amazes me!)

Mark:  Sorry, Brother!  i was tired when i posted that "admonition," and i guess i was the only one amused by it.  

     For the record, my pc drastically limits my access to the whole GA setup-- one of the many things i can't use is the smileys.  Also can't use any of the tabs above the smileys, which is why i alway CAPITALIZE to EMPHASIZE.  (My personal 'puter is so old that the toolbar has icons for
a Rock, a Stick, and Fire!!!)  ;o)

al

[gUEST]

What happened to Rudy?

[al Hartman]

     Rudy has not responded to my Feb.16th post, so i think everything is OK between Rudy & me.
     Right, Rudy?

al