Questions about discipline of church leaders

[Mark C.]

Hi Tom,
  I think I've figured out the "guest" thing.  You must log-in before each session using your username and password.  Don't re-register as you are already registered and it won't accept it.
   Under the old site you didn't have to log-in each time and it must be a new characteristic of the site that Brian built.
   I not only recovered my former status I was also reinstated as The fabulous, "Global Moderator"!
                                       God bless,  Mark

[guest]

THIS IS "GUEST" TOM MADDUX AGAIN.

Mark,

I have  been logging in every time, but this thing kicks me out after EVERY CLICK!

I think what happened is that I logged on from my work computer a few days ago.  Now I am greeted by name on that computer, but rejected on my home computer.

HELP!  HELP!   PUHLEEZZ WONT SOMEONE HELP!

I don't know enough about computers to know what to do.

God bless,

Tom Maddux

[Mark C.]

Hi Tom,
  Well, I think we will have to wait for Brian to explain this situation as you well know I am not Geeky as well.
  Just a suggestion:  Go ahead and try to register again, and maybe it will take?
  Not much of a Global Moderator am I?
                                God Bless,  Mark

[Rudy]

I would say that your work e-mail address is tied to your username.
You may only be able to access from work using that username.
Register using let's say "T Maddux 2" along with your home e-mail
address. You're accessing a website, but the board software could be
verifying the e-mail address as you are logging on.

[Guest]

Tom -

It was soooo good to see you those 10 days ago.  I appreciated your spirit and words and care.  I'd like to talk a bit more - online or with you and Carol - e-mail me.  ghonan@ch2m.com

thanks.

Gretchen

[guest]

THIS IS "GUEST" TOM MADDUX AGAIN


I have figured out what is wrong with this board!

This board is possessed by a spirit of exclusivity....it exists just to kick people out!!!!!!

Tom

[editor]

Hello Gretchen and Tom, Mark, etc.

gretchen, I plan on responding to your latest email, in a day or two, when I have time to write intelligently.

As for Chuck Smith's motive for bringing Hocking on, it was definitely mercy and grace.  In fact, there is a chapter about it in either Calvary chapel distinctives, or Why Grace Changes Everything, both by Smith.

Pastor Chuck took a lot of criticism for showing "mercy" to Hocking.  He wasn't against curch discipline, but was against the type of discipline and the fact that they were changing it over and over, etc.  

Anyway, my information is somewhat biased, it's from Chuck Smith's book, and a long time close friend of the Hockings.

BTW, the Hockings are still together, no divorce, etc.  Inspite of the man's sin, it is pretty neat that the marriage is still intact.

Brent

[brian]

I have  been logging in every time, but this thing kicks me out after EVERY CLICK!

  sorry about this problem - it is not anything you are doing wrong. some computers are having this problem, while most of them are not (apparently). since i am not having this problem, it is hard for me to tell if i have fixed it. but i'll tear into it tommorrow and see what i can do. keep me updated about it.

I think what happened is that I logged on from my work computer a few days ago.  Now I am greeted by name on that computer, but rejected on my home computer.

this wouldn't affect your login from home at all. even so, i would advise you to click 'logout' when you are done using the board at work, instead of just closing the browser. closing the browser does not log you out, and if someone else opened the browser and came to this website they could easily post under your name, delete your posts, etc. just be careful doing that.

[Peacefulg]

Hi Gretchen, it is I George Allen, glad to see that you are doing well.

The question you pose is a good one, and I being involved in a Calvary (Ft. Worth, TX), get to see/hear Mr. Hocking every year, our Pastor loves him.

He still teaches classes at Calvary's Bible school, and does regular trips to Israel.

I would not say that Chuck is a viper, but I would say he needs to explain himself to the Grace leadership.  

David's teachings if you still follow them have changed, I remember being blessed by them, but neither I or my wife will go the meetings when he comes to town.  As my wife puts it, that man sure knows how to put himself and his doings first, listen to tapes before the fall and after the fall and you would hear the same thing.  

I believe since the man was so quickly taken in and given a high position by one so respected and regarded as Chuck he never was given a chance to learn humility and show forth fruits worth of repentance (I can see where this might have even puffed him up).  Chuck could have easily said for so much time (years in my opinion) you can sit, listen, and learn, and then we will revisit where you should be.

Lord Bless,
G

[Gretchen Honan]

George -

Thanks for your information.  I also detect a change pre- and post- discipline issue with Hocking and have not once since then listened to an entire message.  I can say from personal experience that a full and complete surrender and acceptance, even eagerness to let God's discipline work, bears fruit truly "not to be repented of."   How is life in Texas?  Glad to hear you have found a wife George - I hope you are peaceful and happy.

A great book on this whole subject is "The Minister's Restoration" by George MacDonald.  At the end the fallen minister whose sin comes out some time later says, " It is not until I have made what restoration lies within my grasp to account for my sins that I can in any sense be publically restored.  Know that I am willing, not only to be restored, but also to make restoration to any others I may have hurt. " Later the one he is talking to says, "we have no right to choose, appoint or apportion our own penalties."  When he tells his wife that it may go public her response is " Thank God, my husband it has come to this."  His response is "The evil in me has to come out and show its self before it could be cleared away! Some people nothing but an earthquake can rouse from their dead sleep.  I was one of such! God in His mercy brough on the earthquake to wake me and save me from death.  Just think where we each might be if he had not shown us ourselves, even in our sin.  We might never have known His goodness if not for the evil in us."

Now, that's a right response to discipline.

[editor]

Dear Grethchen

You qoute one of my favorite authors, and one of my favorite books by that author.

I agree with you regarding the proper repsonse to discipline.  Hopefully, there can be more people who do this in real life.

For the Chuck Smilth sid of the story, the chapter is in Calvary Chapel Distinctives,  title, "Grace upon Grace."   Cleary, it is about David Hocking.  In this chapter, Chuck admits that he made mistakes about "forgiving" some people and that they later hurt him because of it.  He also mentions that many of the Calvary Chapel pastors had pasts that included all sorts of criminal activity, but THAT THEY REPENTED!

I guess that's what it's all about eh? Repentance.

Brent

[Arlene]

The leadership of "the assembly", are they under discipline?
Who's discipline are they under?  Who are they answering to?
We have heard some leading brothers, elders and workers have stepped down.  Is stepping down enough?

To step down or remove oneself from a position, when done in repentence and humility, is encouraging; but to step down for only "a time" is not.

When someone breaks a law, e.g., runs a red light and is pulled over, that person doesn't have the option of deciding their own discipline.  The officer gives the person a ticket with a court date to apear before a judge where they have a choice to plead guilty or not guilty.  Pleading guilty, you pay a fine and, sometimes, are required to do community service.  (I myself have not had to go before a judge)

What does the Word of God say about Dicsipline of church leaders?   Are there any books that address is issue clearly with scriptural backing?

[TGarisek]

We addressed this question of consequences or "discipline" at the second "open" meeting in Fullerton. The answer given by Keith was vague. He was pressed for an answer and could not respond. I called him later and told him he was vague and he said he knew that because he didn't know how to respond.

I was told the issue was being pursued by those who were remaining in fellowship. The people I'm speaking of have now departed and what discipline or consequence remains is now utterly and completely vague!

If the assembly ceases to exist which if they want to believe it or act like it or not, it has, then the question is moot. The issue is complicated if one or more of the "former" leaders who stepped down or "aside" as they euphemistically put it, decides to step back to the other or former side i.e., Timothy. What consequence can you conjure for him?

My suggestion would be if they insist on meeting and adhering to assembly type format/ritual, then Tim should be disqualified for a reasonable period from teaching, preaching and leading.

What is reasonable? My perspective doesn't matter since I will never be in a forum again where Tim is present unless it's an Angel baseball game!

[Bluejay]

Now how in the world would Tim with all his duties ever have time to go to an Angels baseball game??? Oh, and even if he did have time, how could he ever afford it...a trip to a pro ball park can be rather expensive??? j/k

My guess is that somewhere along the lines, he probably has taken credit for the Angels world series championship last fall.

Maybe if he can't find a real job, he should apply for the head basketball coaching position at UCLA following Lavin's dismassal as head coach.  He always viewed himself as the "Wizard of Westwood" anyway - I think it would be a perfect fit!!!

[lookingaway]

To bluejay:
haven't you ever needed a break? maybe just maybe he was tired and wore out from everything. He goes to a BASEBALL GAME and you get angry?