Egyptian Mythology

[David Mauldin]

You neglect the issue,  MANY THEOLOGINS- These are people in your camp! It is in your church history and in the Bible itself! Go to the library at any Christian college and you will find these ideas premoted and expounded upon!. Go to the public library and read about the most devout Christians who fought on the confederate side of the civil war!  (E.M. Bounds etc..) Go to Bob Jones University and read their racist doctrines. I find the coment that murder didn't happen until their was a law pretty ludacrous. Murder is murder no matter if there was a law written or not. It is you who are using the theological mishmash to skirt around the fact that the Bible premoted murder of innocent peoples and the taking of their property. Take a reasonable step back and ask yourself, If today you came accros a history book that detailed the events in the Old Testement how would you evaluate it? You distance youself fom event such as Galileo Yet in principle you practice the same kinds of censorship. "That kind of thinking contradicts the Bible therefore it is wrong! Yes I do have a standard of righteousness!  Yet it is like God, undefinable in human terms. it must constantly be strived for, upheld, debated but I am not sure if I can give you and easy simple definition of what it is. Yet I am trying, going forward, looking, evaluating thinking in and outside the box.  Using my reason along with my faith.  Oh by the way Tom if someone came up to you and said, "excuse me but your property now belongs to me!  See it says so right here in the Bible!"  would you have a problem with that?  why then do you expect others to just accept the "Will of God?"

[4Him]

David,
Forget about THEOLOGIANS.  You are looking only at sinful men. Look only to the loving God who gave his life for YOU!

[Arthur]

Yes I do have a standard of righteousness!  Yet it is like God, undefinable in human terms. it must constantly be strived for, upheld, debated but I am not sure if I can give you and easy simple definition of what it is.

David, God is definable in human terms.  His name is Jesus.  
You want to see God?  Look at Jesus and what he did.  You want to see the love of God?  "God demonstrates his love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

It's all right there in the Bible.  You don't have to make up a new moral standard.  God already said, "Thus saith the Lord...".  You and I just need to obey him.   The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, we need to follow his example.

And David, those Caananite people you were talking about, "those people were human beings who loved their children/families wanted to live free just like you and I."

Um...they were sacrificing their children to demons by burning them to death.  The same kinds of demons, if not the very same one that you serve if you truly do believe in Buddha.  

What God did was not murder, it was righteous judgement.
Do you know that one of the reasons why God said wipe them out was because he didn't want his people doing the same wicked thing.  The Israelites did, though, and God judged them for it.  Hmm..I'm thinking the same thing might happen in the U.S. one day for all the murdered unborn children.  Thank God the partial birth murder was banned.  It's sad to think that even came up as a possibility that had to be debated over.

As far your own standard goes, think about Cain.  Cain thought he was right in what he did. He thought he was completely justified in killing Abel.  He was angry and so he killed him, what's wrong with that, he thought.  See what the knowledge of good and evil does to us.  It twisted Cain, he thought he was right in doing evil.  It was not right for him to murder his brother, yet he did it and wouldn't listen to God nor repent when God came to him both before and after. Same thing with the Pharisees who killed the annointed one of God.

It seems to me that you believe that you are right because you are basically a good person, live a chaste life, help the poor and do other good deeds.  
And you think that God is wrong because he told the Israelites to kill the inhabitants of the land and because he allowed all the bad things that happened to us in the assembly, and all the other bad things in the world today, etc.  
If that is the case, then you are placing yourself over God and charging him with evil. That very fact itself shows your wickedness for two reasons.  One is that it is not the place of the creation to say anything in judgement of our Creator.  Secondly, God is pure, holy and just.  He does not sin, so you charging him with wrong-doing is a sign of the wickedness in your own heart.

I have struggled with what happened to me in the assembly. I wanted to be strong in faith and not charge God with evil doing when going through a trial, just like Job who said, "The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord...Yea, though he slay me, yet will I trust in him."  But I faltered and was discouraged for a time.  But God is faithful.  He is helping me trust in him and remember his goodness.  He is reminding me that he is Lord, no matter what happens.  The wickedness we see on earth is neither of him nor from him.  We have no further to look for blame then ourselves.  Men molest and mistreat other men because of the wickedness in our hearts.  God is the Righteous One and blessed savior of mankind who in his mercy has extended his helping hand into this cesspool of wickedness that is humanity.  
No we shouldn't be judging God, but thanking him a thousand times over for his mercy and grace.  

Arthur

[Joe Sperling]

This is a very interesting discussion. I'll just make a quick point concerning the Canaanites. In the Bible God states
"Until their iniquity be full"--then he judges. When God sent the Israelites to Egypt he gave a time-frame of 400 years before he raised up Moses and freed them from their slavery.

We remember what God did to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. He said they were "exceedingly wicked" before his eyes. Their iniquity had become "full". Abraham pleaded for them asking God if he'd spare the city of 50 righteous were found there. God said  he would spare it if there were
50 righteous. Abraham keeps pleading until he gets down to
10 righteous men and God says he'll spare the city for 10 righteous.

God destroyed Sodom and Gomarrah--imagine that--there were not even 10 men God could call "righteous"--they were all SO wicked that they had surrounded Lot's house calling on him to send out the two angels so the men of the city could have sex with them!! Their iniquity had come to a point of complete wickedness and God destroyed them.

During the 400 years that the Israelites were in Egypt the Canaanites had become exceedingly wicked. We know this from archaeological digs and the artwork that has been found. Their iniquity had become "full" in the eyes of God.
He had given this land to Abraham in a promise many many years before. It BELONGED to Israel. God did not tell the Israelites to go and "conquer the world and kill all the men women and children you find before you".

God told them to conquer ONLY the land that was already
theirs. He put borders on that that they could conquer. They
were only to destroy the people within those borders. And those people were "exceedingly wicked". But instead of raining down fire and brimstone upon them he chose to use Israel and it's armies to accomplish the judgement.

Though it is difficult to understand it is "righteous judgement" from God, not a "jihad" from God calling on the Israelites to kill everyone in the world who wouldn't accept the Jewish religion. It was a specific, limited judgement upon a very wicked group of people.

David---thanks for your input on the BB, and keep posting!
  ----Joe

[David Mauldin]

Today, would you agree that many of your behaviors and beliefs have been influenced by your environment, past teachings, experiences, circumstances? And today would you not agree that as time passes you come into situations, experiences that enlighten you to your own ignorance? Even as a Christian we say things such as "The Lord showed me I was wrong about that doctrine or such and such!" Have you ever considered the possibilities that you yourself could have been born in a different time frame amongst a different group of people? What if you were born an Egyptian or Caananite during the time periods wev'e been considering?  What would be your most probable world view?   Truthfully  had you been born in these circumstances you would have been easily subject to the damnation in the Bible  just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time!!!? Isn't it more reasonable to just admit these people were dealing with their world just the same as everyone else was at that time?  "My God is better than your God!"  "We are the real peoplle who have the only valid truths!"

[Oscar]

David,

You say you have a standard of righteous, yet is like God, undefineable.

Let's try that idea out.

I have a recipe for cornbread, but it is undefineable, it must be constantly strived for, debated...

Would you eat my cornbread?

I know the way to Joe's house, but it is undefineable, it must be constantly sought for, debated...

Would you follow my directions?

What you are really saying is that you can't answer my question.  You say, "I have a standard of righteous behavior".  So did Adolph Hitler.  He believed he was serving the German nation well.

What makes your standard, whatever it is, any better than his?

David, what you are doing is trying to use Christian ideas of right, wrong and justice to condemn Christianity.  If you had the courage, (or maybe the ability),  to adopt a position and defend it I could respect your ideas, even if I disagreed.  So far, you have no position, only accusations.

Tim is right, you have just picked up a mish mash of athiest/materialist criticisms of Christianity and are trying to tear down our "house".  "If the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness" Jesus.

Oh yes, if someone came up to me and said my property is now his, the real question would be "who is the legitimate owner".  God is the creator of the world.  It belongs to him, we're just passing through.

Thomas Maddux

[al Hartman]

David,

     Tom and i have known each other for over half our lives.  i have often accused him of being too blunt, brusque, adamant, demanding, pushy, etc., etc., etc.  You seem quite angry, and i'm sure that when you read his remarks to you, they make you even angrier.  At least that's been my personal experience in dealing with him.

     The thing is, when he's right, he's right!  OK, so he doesn't sugar-coat it for us.  So what?  Would the truth be any more palatable if his language was sweeter?  He would still be saying, "You're wrong," and, "Here's why," and "Here's what's right."

     Has it occurred to you that maybe the reason you're so angry is that, while you were venting your frustration, you painted yourself into a corner?  Your arguments to Tom's words are nonsensical, and they smack of desperation.
     Your "What if"s are the kind of silliness children talk on the playground.  We simply WEREN'T born in Egypt or Caanan, and NOBODY is going to try to use the bible to prove they own Tom's house.  We are who, what, where and when we are, and THAT's what we have to deal with.

     Personally, i have read and listened to the best of theologians' explanations of why nations haven't received the gospel, why there are disease, wars, crime, hatred, and on and on...  The theologs don't all agree, and i don't have a clue which, if any, of them are right.  Human suffering has made me very angry with God;  has made me doubt him.  My feelings, my emotions, just can't seem to buy into some bookworm's cut-and-dried interpretations.
     But, in seeking a higher court to which to bring my appeal, i find only one:  Where shall i go but to the Lord?
     David, i pull out all the stops-- i wail and i rail.  i lash out in my anger!  Let God cut me down if he will not hear me...
     But he does hear me...  He listens...  He understands...
i'm telling him nothing he doesn't already know;  nothing he hasn't heard before;  nothing he himself hasn't felt and thought.

     As far as my grasp of the big picture (or at least my ability to explain it) goes, i'm about a 20-percenter.  i understand some really basic stuff:  God made me, and loves me.  Jesus Christ lived and died and rose again and acended to heaven so that i could be saved and live a life delivered from the grip of sin, and could please God, and share in his blessings, and i have his Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth.  There's more, of course, but my comprehension is limited.
     I read in awe as Tom and Arthur, Mark, Joe, and Tim share their Bible and secular knowledge.  i'm not stupid, but these guys' grasp far exceeds mine.  i have learned/am learning that i have a distinct position on the team, and i'm neither able, nor expected, to cover everyone else's assignments.

     David, we're all ticking you off.  You don't like what we're telling you.  You've been adamant in declaring our position wrong.  But you're still around.
     Deep down inside of you, something resonates every time you hear "Jesus Christ," as deep calls unto deep.  He who has begun a good work in you is continuing it, and will keep continuing it, and that's why you don't go stomping off in contempt of us and confidence in yourself.  Because he that is within you is greater than all your arguments, and in spite of your anger and tears, his love makes your heart quicken with hope every time your thoughts turn to him.
     So you keep subjecting yourself to our words because we love you, and you can feel Christ loving you through us, and the hope swells in your heart, that the night of weeping will pass, and you will know joy in the morning.

     Stick around-- the best is yet to come...

al

[David Mauldin]

Tom, unlike giving you a defention of "God" I can give you a good defenition of art and classical music! Here they are:

Beethovens 9th:  Its pretty good!

Rembrants Night watch:  Its pretty good!


Motzarts Magic Flute:  Its pretty good!


Van Goghs Starry Night:  It's pretty good!


Gee do these defenitions sound a little lacking?: How much more my or anyone elses defenition of God???


 

[Joe Sperling]

David---

I'll put in my two cents worth I guess. You're right, we cannot define God. But I must admit, I have studied several different religions before and after I accepted Christ. I have always felt that God would represent the greatest and the best. When you think of goodness he would be so far above the goodness I think of it would be astounding. He would be far more forgiving than the most forgiving thing I can think of. As he stated "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.(Is. 55:8,9). So when I think of a God he must represent the best of the best.

When I compare the other gods of other religions to Jesus it becomes like comparing a Tonka Truck to a real Ferrari.
Allah is a god to the Muslims. He has just laws and many rules, but he also calls for the blood of the infidels. His legalism outweighs his kindness. Krishna is a god to the Hindus. He is a mischevious blue god with many wives.

Buddha is very wise and intelligent, but he said "I am not the light". He is not really a god, but he is worshipped as
one. He is also the only one worshipped here who needs to go on a Slimfast diet.(just kidding--couldn't resist).

Then I look at Jesus Christ. He is the only one who really is a redeemer. He died for mankind. He offers a way of salvation through HIMSELF not through a series of steps to salvation. He is the most loving, forgiving and just of all of the gods I have studied. I think when you really consider it and take it to heart and listen to what Jesus taught and said, but mostly what he DID, you arrive at the same conclusion.

Why play with a Tonka truck when you can have a Ferrari?

--Joe

[David Mauldin]

Tom,the real question is "Does someone have the right to take way your property just on the notion that it is Gods will?"

[retread]

Tom,the real question is "Does someone have the right to take way your property just on the notion that it is Gods will?"

The answer would typically be "It is not God's will". Just because it is God who gives me something and that it is nothing of myself, does not mean than someone else has the right to take it. Be careful with notions, they may just end up being in direct opposition to God's will.

[David Mauldin]

Hey Retread Have you ever noticed the scripture that says "Go into the land...."


Tom A few years ago If someone  were to ask me, "what is the meaning of life?" I might have given them an answer that is just as simple as street directions, Yet today I would give a much different answer.  I'd say "life is a very complex enigma. It is filled with contradiction and injustice. It is at the same time beautiful and horrid. Thoughout life you will meet all kinds of people.  You will have to make all kinds of decisions that will have lifelong consequences. In all this no one can tell you how you must proceed in life. You must draw upon your intellect experiences intuition faith etc.. You must find your own way

[retread]

The answer would typically be "It is not God's will". Just because it is God who gives me something and that it is nothing of myself, does not mean than someone else has the right to take it. Be careful with notions, they may just end up being in direct opposition to God's will.

Hey Retread I think you missed something, I was setting Tom up-  In the Old Test. the Isrealites took other peoples property and today their reasoning is "God said we could!"

I think that I understand where you are coming from.  That is why I used the word "typically".  Of course God is supreme, if God gives you something then it is yours, no questions asked,  but we need to be careful with "our" notions.  There have been folks who have exploited the Word of God for what they may have considered to be their gain (GG for example).  Their is a difference between serving God, and exploiting God.

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." - Isaiah 55:9

We need to be careful with "our" notions.

[Oscar]

Tom, unlike giving you a defention of "God" I can give you a good defenition of art and classical music! Here they are:

Beethovens 9th:  Its pretty good!

Rembrants Night watch:  Its pretty good!


Motzarts Magic Flute:  Its pretty good!


Van Goghs Starry Night:  It's pretty good!


Gee do these defenitions sound a little lacking?: How much more my or anyone elses defenition of God???


 

Ah, David,

At last, you have made a little sense.  You gave extensional definitions to the terms "art" and "classical music".  You named specific members of the classes that these words denote.

However, your statement that "God is undefineable" is self referentially absurd.  If God is undefineable how could you know it?  To say He is undefineable, ie, a member of the class of all undefineable entities, you would have to have complete knowledge of His attributes.  Then you could eliminate each one of them as undefineable.

In simple terms, if you don't know what God is like, how can you tell anyone else what He IS like, ie, undefineable.

Here is a legitimate definition of God; God is that being which human beings can see expressed in the life and character of Jesus Christ.  It is not an exhaustive definition, but it is a legitimate one.

You could legitimately say that "I cannot define God".  But how could you know if this is true of all human beings at all times and in all places?

Thomas Maddux

[Will Jones]

Deitrich Bonhoeffer stated that the most important question facing modern Christians was deciding who Jesus is to us today.  We all have to decide who Jesus is to us and I would wager that just about everyone has a different conception of who he is/was, what he might have looked like, what his teachings mean, what his death on the cross signifies, etc.

A few things to think about:

The Council of Nicea (and the following councils) got together about 300 years after Jesus walked the earth to attempt to come to an agreement of who Jesus was/is.  For hundreds of years before and for hundreds of years after--up until today--people have not agreed about who Jesus is/was.  For example, many "Arians" believed that Jesus was not fully man and full God for hundreds of years after the Councils stated who Jesus was/is.  Many different groups such as Gnostics held very different beliefs and esteemed different scriptures.  

Early Christians--for hundreds of years before and after the Council of Nicea--did not have the Bible as we know it today.  In fact, many different writings were considered authorative by many different groups--writings we now look down on as false.  The Bible that is looked to as the inerrant and infalible Word of God is a relatively new concept in terms of Church history.  

If you don't believe what I have said in the last few paragraphs, believe the historical document The Church History of Eusebius (also called Ecclesiastical History, History of the Early Church, etc).  Eusebius was a man who sat at the Council of Nicea with the Emperor Constantine and who had knowledge of early church history, death of the apostles, etc. that most Christians are ignorant of.  This historical document will blow your mind.  It talks about the first 300 years of church history:  death of the apostles, early church gatherings, politics of the time, spread of the gospel, role of Jews, steps toward the formation of an agreed upon Bible, etc.  It was one of the most eye opening books I have ever read.

I strongly encourage people read this historical document written by Eusebius because it will help bring a historical perspective to how Christian beliefs and practices developed.