Egyptian Mythology

[Arthur]

David,

Yes, you are right.  I was wrong about the assembly.  
Does that mean that I can never be certain about anything again, because I was wrong about that?  I think that is the main question here.
(By the way, when I found out the truth, I immediately got out of there. )
I think this gets to the heart of the issue for you David, and I understand where you are coming from.
After believing in something so much, it is devestating to find out that you were decieved.  You start to wonder if you can believe in anything again with certainty.  
For me, I always believed in God (long before the assembly), and I sometimes sorta believed in the assembly, which was wrong.  When the assembly turned out to be a lie, my faith in God was still there, perhaps this is attributable to the fact that I was raised in a Christian home, I don't know.  But there are people in the assembly who came to believe in God while in the assembly and still believe in him, despite the assembly's failure.  This, to me, shows that God is able to keep his people.  No one shall snatch them from his hand.  

I think this issue is why you started this thread about Egyptian Mythology and it is also why you turned to Buddhism.  I'm guessing that the reason why you turned from the truth of the Bible is because you were hurt and lied to by people who claimed to be Christians.  That is so sad.  They're not going to get away with it, David.  God is still true and just and good.  Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Many have named the name of Christ and yet have lived like the antithesis of the one they name.  Don't let them keep you from Jesus, who loves you so much.  I don't believe in them.  But I do believe in Jesus. I hope you haven't turned away from him completely.  

Arthur

[David Mauldin]

While working at St. Judes hospital (5 years) I became acquainted with Muslims, Jehovas Wittnesses, Mormons, Hindus, Catholics all who spoke with the same confidence, conviction and zeal as myself. I watched as many of these people died clutching confidently unto their faith. They all responded to their experiences in much the same way I had. They all seemed as sincere as me  or even more so (Of course only God knows!)  It was a real stumbling block for me.  "How is it I (being so limited)  have "The Truth" and they are deceived?  Is it (My version of) sacred scriture?  Is it my association?  My praying Grandma?  Why am I afforded,by Gods grace, the joys of eternal bliss in heaven and they Hell?  Isn't it more reasonable to just admit everyone responds to life in the best way they know how?

[al Hartman]

While working at St. Judes hospital (5 years) I became acquainted with Muslims, Jehovas Wittnesses, Mormons, Hindus, Catholics all who spoke with the same confidence, conviction and zeal as myself. I watched as many of these people died clutching confidently unto their faith. They all responded to their experiences in much the same way I had. They all seemed as sincere as me  or even more so (Of course only God knows!)  It was a real stumbling block for me.  "How is it I (being so limited)  have "The Truth" and they are deceived?  Is it (My version of) sacred scriture?  Is it my association?  My praying Grandma?  Why am I afforded,by Gods grace, the joys of eternal bliss in heaven and they Hell?  Isn't it more reasonable to just admit everyone responds to life in the best way they know how?

David,

     Your latest post illustrates the futility of a life spent comparing religions:  All those people of various faiths lived in pursuit of knowing and serving their gods.  Yet none of them claimed to have "arrived," did they?  By definition, a worshiper, devotee, or disciple is one who follows another, seeking to serve and to please.  If people can spend their entire lives studying only one god, and never reach the pinnacle of their faith, how much less will one be able to understand enough to compare ALL faiths?  Even concentrating on just the MAJOR religions of the world would take the equivalent of several lifetimes spent unsuccessfully.
     If you take a college course in "comparative religions," you will find the instructor's summaries to be shallow at best, arriving at conclusions that are not accepted by leading clerics as being representative of their faiths.

     i was brought up by parents who professed a vague notion that a god exists, and did absolutely nothing about it.  i first heard about Christ, and later accepted him, as an adult.  i have always had difficulty believing that whole nations of people are condemned to eternal damnation because of the sins of their forbears.  And i do not believe that the bible says the exact same thing to everyone who reads it or hears it read.  These concepts are too large for my mind.
     But i have come to understand that God does not require that kind of comprehension of me.  All he wants of me is that i obey him in the things that i DO understand.  
HE assumes full responsibility for the rest.  i don't have to explain why God does things the way he does, because anyone who REALLY wants to know can take it up with God himself.

     Christian author and teacher C.S.Lewis proposed that an earnest seeker of the God of mercy, peace and love WOULD ultimately find Christ (if not in life, then in death), even if in his lifetime he had called God by some other name.  This is in keeping with the scriptural promise that
"You shall seek me, and you shall find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart."
     Personally, David, i think that's what you were doing when you started this thread.  i can't see you coming here to brag or complain.  Your faith got mugged and you came in here hoping that this is the ER, and you could get patched up.  (It is typical ER machismo to not admit to the true degree of one's pain).

     But you raise a valid point in asking how, if we are in direct communication with God, could we have ended up in a swamp like the assembly?  Let me attempt an illustration:
     You are leading a troop of scouts, and you want to see how much they've learned.  So you tell them to go on ahead of you.  You instruct them that they will come to a fork in the road, and they are to take the path to their left.
     You follow the scouts and discover that when they came to the division in the trail, they went to the right.  The left path was narrow and steeply inclined, while the way on the right was broad and flat.  They didn't understand that the steep pathway led directly to the campsite, while the other way would get them hopelessly lost in an impassible bog.
     Your instructions were true, but the scouts, being young and full of themselves, thought they were wiser, and thus erred.
     You won't abandon them, you know!  They are your charges.  You won't write them off as fools and desert them.  No, you'll go and find them, and then you'll do whatever it takes to get them back to where they need to be.  And you'll do it again... as often as necessary, to bring them home.
     Am i over-simplifying to say that we are human, and God allows us to learn from our mistakes?  Let me ask you:  Will YOU ever end up somewhere like the assembly again?  No?
i rest my case.

     Please, David, just because you got a really BAD case of poison ivy, don't give up on scouting!

Sincerely yours, because sincerely his,
al Hartman

[Will Jones]

To any Horatio who wants to listen,

I'm guessing that the reason why you turned from the truth of the Bible is because you were hurt and lied to by people who claimed to be Christians.  That is so sad.

What is truly sad is people try to hold to a black and white version of "the Truth" and "God" and this implies that anyone who does not believe as they do are wrong or are hell bound.  

Why would someone turn to Buddhism after leaving the Assembly?  Arthur, you seem to be saying that David was simply reacting against the Assembly and made a choice based on emotion and a negative experience.  That could be true (I don't know him) but it seems clear he has invested a lot of time searching and examing other "truths" as I have.  You might be looking at David with pity because you are in the light, but he is probably looking at you the same way because he has seen the light as he has explored himself and the world around him:  black and white views of the world are very simplistic and often do not account for the grey realities of life.  

The basic teachings of Buddha found in the earliest Pali scriptures are quite an interesting read.  (The earliest Pali scriptures are teachings and do not make Buddha out to be a god with stories of lotus pedals popping up where he walked, etc.)  People are often attracted to Buddhism because Buddhism does not provide all the answers but demands that you as an individual, as an island unto yourself, seek answers that will help improve your life in the here-and-now.  When Buddha was asked by someone about the afterlife and angels, the Buddha told the man not to fret over such unanswerable answers and seek knowledge that would make him a better person in this life.

Here are some other reasons why David might have turned to Buddhism:

1. Buddhism, in its basic elements, is the easiest religion/life philosphy to explain to others and does not take a lot of "faith" to believe in.    
2.  Buddhism is older than Christianity by about 500 years.
3.  Some scholars, rightly or wrongly, believe that Jesus could have been influenced by Buddhist missionaries.
4.  Buddhism honors and respects all religions.  A Buddhist who follows the Dhamma could go to church with a friend without feeling "dirty" and does not feel the need to look down on others who don't believe the "truth" that they do.
5.  Many Buddhist sects are not so conformity/community based because Buddhism, in its earliest teachings descripted in the Pali scriptures, is a religion/life philosphy that person follows on their own without the help of priests, leading brothers or monks.
6.  In the earliest Pali scriptures, Buddha never claimed to be a god or have all the answers, BUT he did encourage his followers to find the answers for themselves.  

David has spent time on finding the answers for himself by reading, thinking and observing others instead of just simply accepting "the truth."  Before you feel sorry for someone who has decided that Christianity is not for them, ask yourself if you have taken ample time to explore yourself and the world around you through investigating other religions, beliefs, philosophies and histories.  Perhaps you are the one who is not seeing correctly because you have limited yourself to your version of "the Truth."     The "shield of faith" may stop the firey darts of the evil one but it can also be used as a shield to hide from the realities around us, i.e., "There is more in heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreampt of in your [in our] philosphy."

[David Mauldin]

Akhenaton  1370-1353 BC Was a Pharoe who was a strict reformer of Egyptian religion and politics.  He was the leader of a monotheistic cult,  The worshippers of the Sun.  
He was intolerant of all other religions and outlawed them. He was very unpopular and almost ruined Egypt.  after his death the citizens revolted and destroyed many of his temples.  It is a considerable theory that Moses and his family may have been the pursecuted remenant of this cult. (many Egyptologist hold to this theory!)

[David Mauldin]

I have long pondered over the fact that the Jews complain of being so persecuted, 'Enslaved in Egypt"  and God in his mercy delivered them.  Yet just a few chapters down the road we read that the Jews themselves began invading, enslaving, persecuting murdering, stealing. All in the name of a loving God?  Doesn't this sound strange to you?

[soul dreamer]

The Israelites were commanded to wage war against the Canaanite nations in the name of the holy God who commands that we should not do such perversions as having sex with animals.  This is the reason given in the scriptures as to why the Canaanites were destroyed:

"Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.  Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants" (Lev. 18:23-25).

In 1 Samuel 15:3 we read, "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.  ("Amalek" according to J.B. Jackson's Dictionary of Scripture Names may mean in Hebrew "perverseness.")  There is archeological evidence that some of these nations actually tattooed images of their sexual perversions onto their foreheads and unto the foreheads of their infants and domestic animals.  Imagine if the Israelites allowed the infants to live, grow up, and parade those images around town.  This gives insight into why the Lord repeatedly said these nations would be a snare to Israel:

"They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee" (Ex. 23:33).

"Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee" (Ex. 34:12).

"And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them: neither shalt thou serve their gods; for that will be a snare unto thee (Dt. 7:16).

We as Christians are to similarly deal in a ruthless manner with sin in our own lives.

  According to 1 Cor. 5, if one who is committing such perversions refuses entreaties to repent, he is to be excluded from the church.  It is not the responsibility of the church to kill such a person, but verses 4-5 do mention that such are to be delivered by prayer to Satan for the destruction of the flesh [and to God for the saving of their spirit].  Now, the Lord has "no pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Ez. 33:11), but is "longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9).  Heaven is a beautiful place because it is filled with righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit (Rm. 14:17).  Without righteousness there can be no lasting peace and joy.  Of the Lord Jesus Christ it is said, "Because you love righteousness, and hate iniquity, God has anointed you with the oil of joy above all your companions" (Heb. 1:9).  In one respect it is the goodness of God that wickedness will not be allowed into the everlasting kingdom.  God in his goodness will preserve heaven as a beautiful place by keeping the unrepentant out - the wicked would spoil the place.

[Will Jones]

THE HISTORY OF GOD by Karen Armstrong answers many of these questions.  I highly recommend it.

[Mark C.]

Dear David
  This has got to be about the most difficult topic to try and answer and I can't do it in one post (not Egyptian Myth, but the exclusive claims of Christ).
  It was so difficult for me it took God Himself to bring me to the place where I accepted Christ as "The Way, Truth, and The Life."
  I was raised as an Evangelical Christian, but early on was drawn to Eastern Religion.  In the Eastern tradition God is a vague force, a great unknown, or everthing and everyone all together.  I diligently pursued that path of "higher consciousness" and yet felt a great emptiness in my life.
  I rejected Christianity for many of the reasons that were mentioned on this thread, yet I knew my Eastern religion was lacking.  One day I cried out to God and said, "God, whoever you are, I don't know and I don't care, just let me know you!"  God did visit my heart and filled that void.
   How do I answer all those very difficult questions re. eternal punishment for those who do not have faith in Christ, the destruction of the Caananites, etc.?  Some have provided very logical answers, but these will never produce faith.  It takes the Spirit of God to produce a conviction that the Bible is the word of God and that Jesus is the one and only Savior of the World.
  I now know Christ, and in knowing Him is to love Him; the Christ of Calvary took all my sin and distance from God upon himself, and brought me the true knowledge of my creator, the God of love.  This assures me that he loves all men and wishes only blessing for them.  The same one who sought my heart wishes to save all who call upon Him.  
   Though I was badly fooled by those who twisted the Christian life and church, I have never questioned the fact of my new birth.(though I have questioned my sanity )
   There is much more to say re. comparative religions and how unique Christianity is, but all such arguments can not produce faith by themselves.
   May God richly meet all your heart's need!   Mark

[al Hartman]

Mark,

    Your 03/15/03 post is about as fine a statement as i've ever seen about the gospel, logic & comparative religions.
    Logic has a certain appeal, and may be a confirming clarification to one who is born again and has the Spirit of God dwelling within to guide.  But it cannot lead a sinner to repentance, because repentance and the new birth do not take place on the plane of logic and reason, but on a spiritual plane.  This sounds so "mystical" to the natural mind as to seem foolish.

    On the other hand, if a soul, whether born again or not, is earnestly seeking God, logic may be a catalyst to that one's entering, through prayer (calling out to God), that spiritual plane and thus finding God.

    The bottom line is that God is not limited as to the ways he works to bring about his ends in the lives of men, women
and children.  But our commission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, following Paul's example in becoming all things to all (people), that by all means we might win some of them to God.

    If we do our part, whether to sow, to nurture, or to reap, God will gather the increase.  It does work that way.

al

[David Mauldin]

HOW CAN ONE JUSTIFY MURDER?  It is easy, step 1 Demonize the person or people you want to kill.  "They are so corrupt that Satan indwells them!"  "They are beyond redemption!"
Let's put this kind of justification a little closer to home.  How do many theologins account for the past treatement of the Native Americans and African Americans?  MANIFEST DESTINY  "It was Gods judgment on those wicked people!"  When in reality those people were human beings who loved their children/families wanted to live free  just like you and I.

[Arthur]

God told the Israelites to do what they did.  He didn't, as far as I know, tell Genghis Kahn.  Maybe he did, I don't know--it's not written in the Bible anyways.

God can do what he wants, right?  He doesn't have to ask our permission or make sure it's ok with us or that we agree or think it's right.  That's ok with you, isn't it?

He created everything.  If it wasn't for him, neither you nor I would be here having this discussion.  It's his right to do with his creation as he pleases.  

Also, humanity was the offender and transgressor in the first place, disobeying God.  That was not right for us to do.  God could have justly punished us by destroying us all.  But he decided to have mercy and demonstrated his love for us by sending his Son to die on the cross for our sins.  

All of humanity, including those nations, deserved everlasting damnation because of our sins, right?
It's ok if he tells his chosen people to completely wipe out foreign nations isn't it?  That's God perogative, right, to show mercy or wrath to whom he pleases.  
It's ok if he wants to choose a man, say Abraham, by which he will bless all the nations of the earth--right?  It's ok with you if God chooses an earthly people through which he brings into this world the Christ who came to set us all free from the bondage of sin, isn't it?

So we have this knowledge of good and evil by which we think we can put ourselves in the judgement seat over God and say he must be this way or that?  Well, God isn't impressed.  It is not our place, as creatures, to tell our Creator what to do.  
Rather, we should fear his wrath and be grateful for his love, kindness and forgiveness.

[Mark C.]

Dear David .
  You raise a very difficult topic, re. the Caananites, that does seem cruel, and very much not like the God who sent His Son into the world to die for sinners.
  If the decision to kill these peoples was arrived at by some kind of "manifest destiny" doctrine from Moses then it would be a terribly unjust war (especially given the order to destroy innocent children).
   However, the order to Israel came from God Himself, who must have seen something in the situation that called for that action.  Since I am not privy to God's omniscience in the situation I can not offer a clear defense in this situation.  Others have shared some scriptures re. the state of these people that shed some light.
   Since this command to Israel was basically not carried out by them it remains to be seen what God would have done in the situation had they chosen to obey.
          We can only offer conjecture:
 1. God commanded Abraham to kill Isaac and at the last second stopped him.  Would this be done?
 2. Were the Caananite innocents so badly abused, in their false religioius system, that God felt it would be better to take them home to be with Him?(God sees eternity---our destiny.)
 3.  Was there a greater danger for the people of the world if these people were allowed to continue their practices?  
  God does command the taking of life in certain capital crimes, even though the offenders were of Israel.  He did this to protect the society, and His purpose in that society to present a salvation to the entire World.
   You might describe these as rationalizations and as I said all such guesses on mans part fall short.
    Since it is a given with me that God is holy,loving, and just I accept His actions as exactly that.
   Can the same God who came to Earth and took all the judgement for sin upon Himself (justifying the ungodly) act in a vindictive and immoral manner?
    My experience is little proof for others, as people are constantly having experiences.  My faith is little help for others, as many have wrongly believed in the past.  I think the challenge is to take one's outrage to God Himself and seek an answer; ask Him how the OT and NT possibly could jive. (Faith does come from God)
   Regarding slavery and the genocide of Native Americans:
     There were many Christians opposed to both and in the slavery issue it was a Christian movement that sought to end it.  There was a great failure, nonetheless, with Christians in re. to both of these issues and one for great shame for the church.  The point is this; God did not command either of these crimes to be practiced by American Christians.
    As a side note I believe restituition is justified for both situations, and that God will hold those responsible who abused these peoples. (There may be some parallel's re. the Assembly issue and slavery as well).
   I pray that God would bless you with answers to your questions and so much more as well .  God Bless,  Mark

[Oscar]

HOW CAN ONE JUSTIFY MURDER?  It is easy, step 1 Demonize the person or people you want to kill.  "They are so corrupt that Satan indwells them!"  "They are beyond redemption!"
Let's put this kind of justification a little closer to home.  How do many theologins account for the past treatement of the Native Americans and African Americans?  MANIFEST DESTINY  "It was Gods judgment on those wicked people!"  When in reality those people were human beings who loved their children/families wanted to live free  just like you and I.

David,

You ask the question, How can one justify murder?

First of all, murder is the illegal killing of a human being.  Since there existed no international legal body in the second millenium BC no law was broken, therefore no murder was committed.

But that is not really what you are asking is it?  It looks to me that what you are really doing is criticizing the actions of Israel on the basis of a moral standard.  Your statement, "those people were human beings that loved their children/families (and) wanted to live free just like you and I." shows this very clearly.  

So, David, since you do not believe in a personal God, just what is the standard that you advocate, and what makes it the standard, ie, what is its origin?

If you can't answer this satisfactorily, you are in the same boat as all relativists.  They frequently preach against others' values and actions, when all they really believe in is their own personal preferences.

What makes one person's preferences more valid than another's?
Joe likes apple pie, Sam likes key lime pie.  
Joe likes to kill Indians, Sam likes to let them live.
You want the Caananites alive, Joshua liked them dead.  
How do you know your wish is better than his?
How do you know mercy is better than cruelty?

If there is a God, and if he says to do something, THAT is the standard.  Like it or not.

No God, No Rules.

So, just what is YOUR source for morals?

Thomas Maddux

[4Him]

HOW CAN ONE JUSTIFY MURDER?  
...
How do many theologins account for the past treatement of the Native Americans and African Americans?  MANIFEST DESTINY  "It was Gods judgment on those wicked people!"  When in reality those people were human beings who loved their children/families wanted to live free  just like you and I.

David, I hate to pile on but...

I ask the question, Was it true Christian believers who engaged in the cruelty of slavery, of stealing men and women from their homes an putting them into bondage?  Was it true Christian believers who fed the Indians liquor and slaughtered them?  Who really did these things?  God's true servants, who believed and followed the only justice in the universe, the Word of the Holy God, did not do these things.  You confuse western culture (directed by sinful men) with Christianity.  That culture is no different than eastern culture, or African, or American Indian, ad infinitum.

The wrongs done to "native" Americans and to black Africans are no more or less than those perpetrated upon the Scots by the English, upon the Saxons by the Normans, upon Indians by Indians (in America or India, no matter) or Africans by Africans.  "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"Ro 3:10 "They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one."Ps 14:3  David, this is the way of man.  We are sinners!  From birth! "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."Ro 7:14

You have "Manifest Destiny" and true Christianity confused.  They are polar concepts.  The true Christian does not go forth to execute judgment upon the "heathen", this concept ended when Israel failed in God's command to them in this regard.  That function has been given to the ungodly nations, Babylon, Assyria, Islam, etc.  I'm sorry David but you are using the same tired criticisms of Christianity that used  by just about every "liberal" or apostate or other overtly anti-Christian person I have ever talked to.  

Remember it is man, under sin, using whatever device is at his disposal, to perpetrate evil upon his fellow "innocent", "liberty seeking" man for his own personal gain.  What are these devices?  Islam, Roman Catholicism, the reform movement, communism, fascism, Mormonism, Buddhism, Geftakysism, and any other kind of "ism" you can name.  Do all of these isms have some good points?  Of course!  Are they representative of Jesus Christ and His Holy Word? NO, NO, NO!!

Look to the Savior on Calvary's tree,
See how He died there for thee and me!
Hear how He lovingly calls to thee,
Look! And thou shalt live.

It is only Christ, crucified and resurrected from the dead, that restrains what evil is restrained in this sinful world.  The measure that His light enters into a life or into a society is directly proportional to the presence of liberty and order in that life or that society.  Whether coincidence or not, Christ is the only thing the West has had going for it, the only thing that has caused us to advance and to enjoy uparalleled liberty and prosperity!  "What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;" Ro 3:9  No, it is not our "superior" intellect or drive or "Manifest Destiny".  It is Christ that gives other peoples that same liberty.  And, as we depart from Christ so also do we individually and societally depart from liberty and descend into bondage.

Examples: John Newton - A slave trader who was saved and departed from that evil, becoming an foe of it. (He wrote "Amazing Grace".)  Abolitionist movements in the U.S. and Britain, which were primarily Christian outreaches.  David Brainerd who gave his short life for the privilege to communicate Christ to native Americans, even being opposed by other non-Christian Europeans.