He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at George Geftakys

[summer007]

My idea about this is GG was'nt or can't even be compared to this woman taken in Adultry. He was a Leader Of a few thousand people teaching another Gospel....Of which the Bible says let him be accursed...Dont forget David knocked Golith out with a smooth pebble...For taunting the Armys of the Living God...check the word Martyr in the dictionary.

[BeckyW]

I didn't want to start another new topic.  I am becoming a "conservative" poster, so I wanted to put this idea down in an old thread, in order to get a years' worth of perspective on the whole thing.

Question:

What is the difference between persecution and rebuke?  I am asking this question in the Biblical sense,  and am using Biblical words and hopefully understanding their meaning.

It has been suggested that this forum constitutes persecution of Christians.  I maintain that there is a marked difference between persecution and rebuke.  What we have done here, in addition to speaking openly about things we deem important, is to call to account, show fault and demand explanations for certain things done by certain people in the Assembly.  Biblically, by definition, this falls under the category of rebuke.  However, if indeed there has been persecution, I would like to have someone point it out to me, so that I may avoid that type of thing.

Does anyone have any ideas about this?

Brent

I have a few ideas about this.  First, who suggested that this forum constitutes persecution of Christians?  It doesn't come close to that.
Identifying wrong behavior is not throwing rocks.  Sharing bad assembly experiences is not necessarily judging others.  I just learned that someone preached to the remaining flock here last spring "if you had your eyes fixed on Jesus you wouldn't have all these questions."  Am I persecuting that brother if I express my opinion here that this is bad preaching?  Because I think you can keep your eyes on the Lord and still ask 'where does that money in the box go?', or 'just how long ago did George's actions disqualify himself from any position of authority in the church?'...
After years of being too quiet when I should have spoken up, I find a forum like this one very helpful.  I've been rebuked and corrected by it a few times, too.
with only an 11 months perspective,
Becky

[editor]

I have a few ideas about this.  First, who suggested that this forum constitutes persecution of Christians?  It doesn't come close to that.
Identifying wrong behavior is not throwing rocks.  Sharing bad assembly experiences is not necessarily judging others.  I just learned that someone preached to the remaining flock here last spring "if you had your eyes fixed on Jesus you wouldn't have all these questions."  Am I persecuting that brother if I express my opinion here that this is bad preaching?  Because I think you can keep your eyes on the Lord and still ask 'where does that money in the box go?', or 'just how long ago did George's actions disqualify himself from any position of authority in the church?'...
After years of being too quiet when I should have spoken up, I find a forum like this one very helpful.  I've been rebuked and corrected by it a few times, too.
with only an 11 months perspective

Two people, recently, have suggested that what we are doing here is persecuting Christians, namely those who used to be Leading Brothers in the Geftakys Assembly.  The people suggesting that we are persecutors seem to be far more Anti-website than Pro-George, although the do seem very complimentary towards all Assembly leaders.  

Personally, I think it is intellectually dishonest to conclude that this forum is persecution.  It is full of rebuke, truth-telling, anger, bitterness, joy, freedom, "lightbulb moments," and is a tremendous help to many who need to put the pieces together and figure out what happened the last 20 years of their lives.

Statistically, as far as my email goes, the critics amount to less than 100 emails out of about 10,000.  I am not sure what Steve is getting, but i would venture a guess that there are far more "Thank you's" in his mailbox than  "May God Judge you's!"

I merely bring up the topic because my phone has been ringing off the hook lately with people in various stages of crisis and flux, a year after the collapse.  My intention has never, ever been to persecute.  It has always been my intention to rebuke, and demand an explanation and accounting for hundreds of ruined lives, and millions of dollars.

Perhaps 30 years of deception, adultery, arrogance, abuse, false teaching and good old-fashioned pocket lining in the name of God really isn't that bad?  Let's just "fergive" and pretend it didn't happen and that we were all involved in a simple testimony to Jesus......

Brent

[Delila Jahn]

re: does this forum constitute persecution?

I've been doing some reading.  In my reading I found that George, when challenged by S.Iron's son, labeled the offending behavior as immorality.  Calling this forum persecution is a similar stretch - and boy you've got to stretch!

The assembly of gg is notorious for this kind of redefining or labeling of behavior.  Freedom of speech for example - how would one define that in the g-regieme?  
a: what pleased the big G of course would be freely spoken.  I read a lot of the Gulag for some research this summer on Russia and the thousands that were hauled away, 'disappeared' and sent off to Siberia.  It is not at all unlike what happened in the assembly when people were accused, interrogated and forced to 'confess' their 'sin'
What we need now is to define each biblical concept again if we want healthy thinking.  Who'se up for that?  Another question - how do you know you 'hear the Lord's voice' now? and not just review your gg philosophy each time you read the bible?  Is it possible not to do this to some extent?  G's was a special brand of Christianity.  
delila

[editor]

re: does this forum constitute persecution?

I've been doing some reading.  In my reading I found that George, when challenged by S.Iron's son, labeled the offending behavior as immorality.  Calling this forum persecution is a similar stretch - and boy you've got to stretch!

The assembly of gg is notorious for this kind of redefining or labeling of behavior.  Freedom of speech for example - how would one define that in the g-regieme?  
a: what pleased the big G of course would be freely spoken.  I read a lot of the Gulag for some research this summer on Russia and the thousands that were hauled away, 'disappeared' and sent off to Siberia.  It is not at all unlike what happened in the assembly when people were accused, interrogated and forced to 'confess' their 'sin'
What we need now is to define each biblical concept again if we want healthy thinking.  Who'se up for that?  Another question - how do you know you 'hear the Lord's voice' now? and not just review your gg philosophy each time you read the bible?  Is it possible not to do this to some extent?  G's was a special brand of Christianity.  
delila

Re-defining biblical concepts is one of the best things an ex-geftakysite can do!  As Tom pointed out on another thread, there are some things that we don't need to re-define, like the Diety of Christ, or the Virgin Birth.

However, there are plenty of other things that we were totally, hopelessly mixed up about.  Several of these, which are relevant to our topic, are gossip, criticism, loyalty, "keeping" one's committements, and the ideas of authority and submission.

I wrote a paper that touched on some of this called,  The Code of Silence.  As good as it is , it barely touches on these topics, and wholly ignores GG's concepts of Church Government, which are really bad.

The vast majority of people are not the least bit confused about the difference between rebuke, and exposing false teaching, and persecution.

I just want to leave the door open in the event that we really have persecuted anyone.  If that is the case, I want to publicly confess it, and do what I can to make restitution.  That is a healthy thing.  Being wrong in a public way requires a public apology----at least that's the way I see it.

Brent

[summer007]

Brent I have to say I agree with your last post.(BTW who is Steve) If I've persecuted anyone in anyway I'd sure like to know! Can't the former Lb's or Leaders speak for themselves..Reprove, rebuke, exort with all longsuffeing and doctrine..But I think its a Classic case of the WOLF guarding the Henhouse....Were told to Contend earnestly for the FAITH....In all fairness some corney jokes have been told...LOL A Merry Heart is Good Medicine...Alot of people have called a Spade a Spade and upset the Apple Cart!!!

[Mark Kisla]

Re-defining biblical concepts is one of the best things an ex-geftakysite can do!  As Tom pointed out on another thread, there are some things that we don't need to re-define, like the Diety of Christ, or the Virgin Birth.

However, there are plenty of other things that we were totally, hopelessly mixed up about.  Several of these, which are relevant to our topic, are gossip, criticism, loyalty, "keeping" one's committements, and the ideas of authority and submission.


Brent

Nothing like opening a bible and asking God to teach you.
Investing  5% of the weekly 20 hrs. of your life that you spent attending assembly meetings tainted with geftakys doctrine will clear up a lot. 60 minutes of Gods perspective is a lot more encouraginging than a lifetime of assembly seminars.

Persecution? No. ( no ones been burnt at the stake or fed to wild beasts
Rebuke? Yes, ( the exposing of false doctrine and practices to bring those in bondage to the full freedom that is found in Jesus Christ)

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone!
  Thanks Brent for the brain expanding question re. are we persecutors or rebukers here.
   As I read the TNDT definitions of the two words I noticed that each word had several different nuances which depended on the context of their usage.  This tells me that context is very important regarding understanding the actual meaning of the words.
  As an example let's say that I was "rebuked" by a JW for declaring that Jesus is God:  Christians would recognize that the JW was wrong for rebuking because his forceful protestation of my position was not based in truth.  The action of rebuking can be done truthfully or in error.
  Let's say, in another hypothetical situation, I observe a man smack a woman and take her purse and I pursue the man in an attempt to bring him to justice:  According to Brent's theological dictionary that could be a persecution.
  Let's bring both of these examples to bear on this BB and the Assembly and to the real question which is: does God approve of our behavior and attitudes or does He approve of the critics that Brent mentioned?
   God approves of the truth spoken in love, and of course does not approve of lies.  Are we telling the truth about what happened to us in the Assembly or are we making it up?  Did all the women GG has his way with just imagine that this happened?  Are the former leaders not getting a fair shake when we ask them to renounce their allegiance to a system that God has exposed and judged as evil?
   Claiming that you are persecuted is a means of turning the tables from facing questions that you would rather not answer and charging the one asking the question with a wrong motive for asking.  It is a means of avoiding personal responsibility by pointing the finger at the one who is asking a difficult question.
    I receive about once a month another video of the Perry Mason TV show where Perry tries to get to the truth.  Perry has a great skill in "persuing" individuals to get to the truth.  As we look at the possible guilty parties as the camera scans the courtroom Sindy and I try to guess who the real murderer is.  The guilty person is very skilled at hiding their guilt and Perry has to doggedly pursue each lead in an attempt to defend his client and come to the truth in the matter so that justice can be done.
  There is truth to be persued as well in this ongoing saga of the Assembly and I feel like we here on the BB are defending many, like Perry's clients, who have been falsely accused and that the only way to clear our client's name is to discover who the guilty party really is.
   No doubt the guilty one does not want the truth to come out and is content to see the innocent party go to the chair.  The guilty one also will actively attempt to point to others, if the searching light of truth starts to come his/her way, in an attempt to spare his/her own sorry posterior.
  To the guilty Perry is a persecutor, but re. the innocent he is a defender of the truth, and this is always the key in achieving justice.  Perry never does a plea bargain because he knows that his clients are not guilty.  I love it because justice always wins out! (no, I do not get a percentage from Columbia house for the above mention of Perry )  We as Christians understand that justice will also always win out and so we need not fret that the guilty will escape.
   I know I took the long way to just say whatever you might think is being done here it is an attempt to honestly look at our Assembly past, and deal with those still not willing to do so.  If there are those who feel they, or the Assembly, is not getting a fair hearing here it is up to them to point out exactly where we have it wrong,  To just level the blanket charge that this BB "persecutes" without explaining how it does so is very clearly an attempt to avoid honestly answering the questions raised.
                                   God Bless,  Mark C.
   

[editor]

Brent I have to say I agree with your last post.(BTW who is Steve) If I've persecuted anyone in anyway I'd sure like to know! Can't the former Lb's or Leaders speak for themselves..Reprove, rebuke, exort with all longsuffeing and doctrine..But I think its a Classic case of the WOLF guarding the Henhouse....Were told to Contend earnestly for the FAITH....In all fairness some corney jokes have been told...LOL A Merry Heart is Good Medicine...Alot of people have called a Spade a Spade and upset the Apple Cart!!!

The Steve I am referring to is Steve Irons.  He and Margaret have been managing the website for longer than I did now.  They have done a fantastic job, and the site has grown to be far more than it used to be.  It is much more balanced and substantive now, and gives more answers and encouragement than it does rebuke, which is as it should be.  However, there is still a battle being fought, and each of us has our unique contribution to make, one in this manner, another in that.

My experience has been that when the cries of outrage grow the most shrill, there is something great about to take place.  Borrowing the yellow terror alerts from our Dept. of Homeland Security, I would say that we are at a yellow level of outrage right now.  We have been up to orange, even red before, but currently we are at yellow.

It's funny, when I was in the Assembly, we always had enemies.  It was a local pastor, or Enroth, or Steve Irons, Social Services or someone else, but we always had enemies.  We imagined that people were out to get us, even though they paid us little or no attention.

It is a common thing for people emeshed in the cult-like sort of thing that The Assembly was/is to have a persecution complex.  The imagine that the cause they are involved in is Holy and of the utmost importance.  When others point out,  "That's not a spaceship, that's a cardboard box you painted white and wrote NASA on,"  they take this as persecution, because they can't see how silly it all is.  I was like that....totally.

I remember once, a person attended one of our meetings, when David G. went on and on for about 2 hours Sunday afternoon.  It was horribly, terribly boring!  

This person said,  "He suffers from short-person syndrome."  It was true, David was classic in this regard, but instead of saying, "Yeah, he kinda does...."  I believed that this person, who was from an evangelical church in another city, was persecuting us, because she was convicted by the message David preached.  Nothing could be further from the truth, but at the time it was totally true to me!

Brent

[summer007]

As soon as this posted I realized it was S.Irons you were talking about.Someone who has been very up-front about his involvement and "reflections' was an amazing discovery for me a few months ago it is much appreciated...I personally hav'ent thanked  anyone .So I'll Thank-You now Brent...This is a Valient Work your doing...BYW is your wife the former Suzi Que?? If she is I think I met her a few times at the beach ..not sure??

[M2]

On 1st January, 2004 someone emailed me this comment about the BB :
"I'm so happy to have access there.  It is such a blessing!"

The Lord Jesus rebuked the leaders of His time, and they did not like it. They made every attempt to 'trip Him up' and stop Him. He used some pretty strong language too e.g. serpents, brood of vipers, hypocrites, blind guides, fools and blind men etc. (read Matthew 23). He addressed His rebuke to ALL the leaders. He did not make disclaimers by saying, "except for Nicodemus", or "except for Joseph of Arimathea".

Persecution is what happened to Stephen and the apostle Paul in the book of Acts. The leaders did not like the message so they stoned the messenger.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Delila Jahn]

“There is a crack, a crack in everything.  That’s how the light gets is.  That’s how the
light gets in...” -- Leonard Cohen (celebrated Canadian Poet)

“There’s a call comes ringing... Send the Light, send the light” - a hymn that plays yet
in my head

“If the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness” - a bible verse
branded to my memory

“Can somebody dim the light?  Can’t you see we like it dark here?” - paraphrase from
angry shepherds as they are exposed.

   I am amazed once again at the irony, once again, as thick and rotten as blue
cheese.  I read once again that it was Tim, son of ‘Voldemort’ (He who must not be
named) who unwittingly encouraged Brent T. to seek the Lord’s truth and  love,
thereby becoming liberated from the ‘mind of GG’to see with the mind of Christ.
And if I accept this, I have to accept that there is a mind of Christ!   So I am
dumbfounded at my own tears, my own desire to so want to believe this.  I want to
believe that there is a God who honored my prayer when I was fifteen years old,
making that bargain with God: “Show me a people who love you and serve you the
way you want to be served and I will give you my life.”  I had concluded that in
paying this, I make a pact with the devil instead.  And I read Brent’s ‘book’ and I
wonder if, after all these years, God really could be answering my prayer.  And that’s
hard to accept.  That’s hard to believe because it scares me to death.
   It is better to believe nothing.  Yesterday I spent hours with my kids, just
playing with them, watching them, scribbling in my notebook and asking myself what
it is that I really believe.  There are some things I know that I believe.  I believe in
eating well, drinking good quality water, examining one’s principles, personal
autonomy, boundaries, watching my children sleep, garlic, dancing with my children,
hard work, artistic outlets, doing one’s own home repairs, gardening, composting,
exercise, writing as therapy.  I believe in freedom of thought, freedom of faith,
throwing out baby with bath water if baby is demonic.  I believe in giving everyone a
voice, learning from others, finger-painting.  I believe in thinking outside the box,
throwing away moldy things, recycling.  I used to believe in the bible.  And once
again I have to admit to myself, I want to believe in God.  But why?
   God would be an absolute, like loving your kids and the need for sleep.  I had
two hours sleep last night.  The person of God in Jesus Christ: I’d like to dismiss that.
Still, I found comfort there once.  I remember too an experience I had when I was
living in Ottawa, an experience that even after I ‘left the Lord’ I could not and still
can not dismiss to this day.  I was living in an apartment building, laying in the top
bunk of a sister’s apartment.  I had been witnessing to two people with strong ties to
wicca and devil worship.  So I thought that’s why I got the visit.  It scares me even
now to think about what came, in the night to my bedroom.  My room mate was
sleeping in the lower bunk.  She didn’t notice.  But I was paralyzed with fear.
Couldn’t move any part of my body.  In my thoughts I clung to my defense: Jesus is
the Son of God.  Jesus is the Son of God.  I claim Jesus Christ as my defense.  Jesus is
the Son of God.  And slowly, whatever it was backed off and left me and I could
move again.  I wasn’t sleeping, as was so often the case in Ottawa, I was so tired that I
couldn’t sleep, my face oozing another cold sore, my throat sore like fire, my mind
unable to quit processing the duties of the next day and all the things I had to get
done.  And in the middle of that, in walks the devil.  So why do I mention that now?
Because what saved me, and I can’t deny what saved me from absolute paralyzing
fear - was Jesus the Son of God.  And I don’t care who reads this and calls me a total
crack up - IT IS TRUE.  And I know it’s true, as sure as I know my own name.  So
why is it relevant?  If I know the devil visited me and Christ saved me, then how is
Jesus Christ not true?  Lame line of logic?   Perhaps.  Perhaps not.
   We begin another year: 2004.  It was 1984 that I first believed I was giving my
life to God.  That’s a lot of years of confusion in between.  Seven years of honest
commitment and ‘death’ to self and abuse of others and myself and near death period.
And it is frightening to know what would happen if I just ‘gave God the reigns’ now.
I have two children to consider now.  I have to keep my head together.  I have to
know that I’m not playing the fool and putting them at risk.  I have an emerging sense
of self worth to consider, a confidence and dignity that is still in its infancy.  I don’t
think if I went to church again I’d be able to keep from crying either and that kind of
public display doesn’t appeal to me.  Also, I’m scared to death to get my bibles out of
storage in my grandmother’s garage.  I’m scared that if I read them I’ll believe and
lose myself, just when I was really beginning to like the person I’ve become.  I’m
scared of that too.  And frankly, I don’t trust myself to make a rational religious
choice.  I’m far too desperate, too emotional.  I’ve been far too stupid in the past.
   Excuses?  Perhaps.  Lame excuses? No.
   It is a tempting thought Brent, that we just lost our way.  That there is liberty
and sanity and abundant life in Christ.  That idea is almost irresistible.  And I’m
crying as I continue to type this at 6:24 AM with two hours sleep.  So I’m not going to
make a decision because I’m overtired and unable to make a decision, just to agonize
and cry and worry.  I was so happy before I heard about the assembly falling into ruin.
Then I was unexplainably heartbroken at the news of this ‘dream’ gone bad.  Now
I’m sick at the thought of Christianity actually having some value and truth to it.  And
I want to go back to living with the belief that it was all a sham - that all religion is
simply men trying to control others through the idea that they have a monopoly on
God.  Still, I don’t find control here on your website, only acceptance.  And yet, I
didn’t see control either when I first entered the assembly, just some very nice
(though odd) people who invited me to live with them and rescued me from a very
abusive home environment.  And quite frankly, I don’t need rescuing now.  For the
first time in my life I feel really free: no tantrum throwing husband, no haunting
memories of saints ‘standing for me’ - all that has lost its power over me.  I’m free.
Time heals, so does rigorous therapy.  So who needs Jesus now?  Yet I want to
believe and even that disgusts me.  
   My seventy-eight year old Grandma has told me a hundred times or more that
we don’t need church.  That we carry God in our hearts and ‘nobody know what that
mean - church - nobody know...” and she weeps.  A Roman Catholic woman, who by
the way also believes in fortune tellers and visits she has had from dead family
members and in looking up her dreams in a dream book - she believes we have God in
our hearts and nobody can know what that means.  
   I had a dream recently.  In it, she and I were out for a drive on a flood plain.
The low level crossing had been washed out so I parked my vehicle and we got out.
And we swam across the ice cold, clear water to the other side.  “The water is clear?
That mean good... muddy water mean death.” she told me, interpreting.  And we have
our trouble, she maintains, and we’ll get through it.  All will be well.  And I believe
that.  Does that appall you?  No scripture and verse and yet I believe that.  Getting
promises, now I take issue with that.  “The Lord gave me a promise for you sister...”
(in other words, sit back, shut up and listen.  I’m going to be God’s conduit for a
minute!).  No way I’m going back to that kind of living, having a bible verse shoved
down my throat as a pretext for conformity to the group.  That’s deception, and it’s
not even very good deception.  It’s lame.  It’s that lame sheep whose legs have been
broken by a ‘good shepherd’ and I’ll have none of that in my life again.  Not ever.
   So I’d better end this.  I can hear my son waking.  He’ll only sing for a while
longer and then his tune will change pretty quick.   In conclusion... I entertain the idea
that God may be touching me with His grace.  The idea too that He may never have
stopped touching me and this is just another step toward an inevitable and complete
understanding of who God is.  This may be just another crack... how the light gets in.
Or I may just be losing my nerve.  I leave the rest to God.

Delila

[Kimberley Tobin]

Delila:

I absolutely believe you in the re-telling of your story about the devil visiting you one night in your apartment.

My husband and I, too, had a similar experience of sleepless nights upon leaving the assembly.  There is a gamut of emotions as you circumnavigate these waters.  I was almost paralyzed for the first few months after leaving the assembly.  The website and this forum were in its' infant stages and all I could do was commisserate here with others who had been through similar experiences.  Reading and posting, reading and posting.  It was my therapy. It gave legitimacy to my emotions and experiences........I wasn't crazy!  Others felt the same way I did, had similar experiences.  It was vindicating.  But then I couldn't do anything else.

But it has gotten better.  And then there are times when I am sucked back in....a letter comes from my former best friend.......saying, "Good-bye".  Just that, "Good-bye", nothing more.  Twenty years of friendship ending in a card with just the words, "Good-bye".  Events that are currently unfolding, that I don't feel at liberty to discuss right now, have brought me to another low place.  I've had some dear assembly friends who I still remain in contact with who I know love me and I love them say, "Why don't you just forget about it, put it behind you, I don't like to see you this way."  And then I think about what Brent went through, wading upstream those two or three years with soooo many more people saying even worse things.  If Brent hadn't "fought the good fight", exposing the lies, the abuse, etc. my family might still be in bondage.  

Don't get me wrong.  I don't believe everyone is called to "fight the fight".  But if you are called, like I believe I am, it doesn't matter that it brings me into a place of dispair and depression.  It is dispair for the lost, depression for real people who are drowning and continue to be influenced by wolves in sheeps clothing.  But it is a difficult fight......one I am willing to invest in.......because the rewards can be great.......if even one soul escapes.

[editor]

As soon as this posted I realized it was S.Irons you were talking about.Someone who has been very up-front about his involvement and "reflections' was an amazing discovery for me a few months ago it is much appreciated...I personally hav'ent thanked  anyone .So I'll Thank-You now Brent...This is a Valient Work your doing...BYW is your wife the former Suzi Que?? If she is I think I met her a few times at the beach ..not sure??

Yes, Suzie Kuh is the current Mrs. Tr0ckman!  (I say current in order to keep her on her toes for the last 18 years  )

The timing is right for you to have met her, and if you met her, you probably met me.

Brent

[editor]

 In conclusion... I entertain the idea
that God may be touching me with His grace.  The idea too that He may never have
stopped touching me and this is just another step toward an inevitable and complete
understanding of who God is.  This may be just another crack... how the light gets in.
Or I may just be losing my nerve.  I leave the rest to God.

Delila

I can't tell you how your writing moves me Delila.  I also find it hard to express how much I can identify with you, in many ways.  What you said below is exactly why I started the website, and the result is exactly what I had mind.

With regard to your current relationship with God, I would like to say a couple things:

Faith in Christ does not mean an Assembly style "walk" with the Lord.  Throw out all the death-to-self stuff that worries you...IT SHOULD WORRY YOU!  Jesus wants you to be a whole person, well adjusted, joyful, strong.

God is patient and kind.


Brent