He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at George Geftakys

[gracetruth]

He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at George Geftakys.

John 8:7  But as they continued to ask Him, He lifted Himself up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.

Mat 7:2  For with whatever judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with whatever measure you measure out, it shall be measured to you again.

John 16:2  They shall put you out of the synagogue. But an hour is coming that everyone who kills you will think that he bears God service.

1 Peter 3:9-10  Never give back evil for evil, or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, giving blessing, knowing that you are called to this so that you might inherit blessing. For he that wants to love life and to see good days, let him restrain his tongue from evil, and his lips from speaking guile.

[Sebastian Andrew]

Dear graceTRUTH:

Please inform me as to who it was that advocated killing Tim/George Geftakys. The stones here weren't going to hurt her feelings or expose her as unfit to be a leader/preacher (a very necessary thing in order to PROTECT the innocent). No, the stones were going to end her life.

Hath no man condemned thee...No Lord. Neither do I condemn thee(grace). Go and sin no more(truth).

I don't believe that grace and truth are the reconciling of opposites, but 2 sides of the same coin.

The verses you quote are out of context and become like the droning of a mantra-a sloppy cliche.

[gracetruth]

Jam 1:26  If anyone thinks to be religious among you, yet does not bridle his tongue, but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is vain.

1Pe 2:19  For this is a grace, if for conscience toward God anyone endures grief, suffering wrongfully.
1Pe 2:20  For what glory is it if you patiently endure while sinning and being buffeted? But if you suffer while doing good, and patiently endure, this is a grace from God.
1Pe 2:21  For you were not called to this? For Christ also suffered on our behalf, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps,
1Pe 2:22  He who did no sin, nor was guile found in His mouth,
1Pe 2:23  who when He was reviled did not revile in return. When He suffered, He did not threaten, but gave Himself up to Him who judges righteously.

[psalm51]

Dear gracetruth,
Here are some verses that really apply to the situation:

 I Tim.3:2-5  "An overseer, then must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, RESPECTABLE, HOSPITABLE, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but GENTLE, UNCONTENTIOUS, FREE FROM THE LOVE OF MONEY.  HE MUST BE ONE WHO MANAGES HIS OWN HOUSEHOLD WELL, KEEPING HIS CHILDREN UNDER CONTROL WITH ALL DIGNITY (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?).

II Cor. 4: 2 "but we have RENOUNCED THE THINGS HIDDEN BECAUSE OF SHAME, NOT WALKING IN CRAFTINESS OR ADULTERATING THE WORD OF GOD, but by the manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God."

Tit. 1: 6-8 "namely, if any man be ABOVE REPROACH, the husband of one wife, having CHILDREN who believe, NOT ACCUSED OF DISSIPATION OR REBELLION. For the overseer MUST BE ABOVE REPROACH AS GOD'S STEWARD, NOT SELF-WILLED, NOT QUICK-TEMPERED, not addicted to wine, NOT PUGNACIOUS, NOT FOND OF SORDID GAIN, BUT HOSPITABLE, LOVING WHAT IS GOOD, sensible, JUST, devout, SELF-CONTROLLED...

Tit. 1: 13...For this cause REPROVE THEM SEVERELY that they may be sound in the faith...vs. 16 They profess to know God, BUT BY THEIR DEEDS THEY DENY HIM BEING DETESTABLE AND DISOBEDIENT, AND WORTHLESS FOR ANY GOOD DEED."

Gracetruth, at the very least have the courage of your convictions to reveal who you are while you beat us all over the head with your bible. If you want to be an effective part of this discussion then bring your facts and your ideas to this forum in the open. Hiding behind the Word of God is not helpful. The Word is powerful and can be a tool of deliverance. The people on this board probably know the bible as well or better than you - let us hear your insight from your vantage point.
Thank you,
Pat

[BeckyW]

Thanks, Pat, for posting those verses that really do apply for 'gracetruth', whoever they are.  Phill and I are out of the Annandale assembly because no one in leadership there is willing to face the truth about George, his life and ministry.  Including the fact that he is an evil man who fleeced God's people.  Evil according to the Oxford dictionary is"one who causes harm". It fits.
Becky Wieser
Annandale, VA

[Joe Sperling]

George: "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone at me"

Two stones fly by.

George: Tim!!  Dave!!! What do you think you're doing??!!

[editor]

Dear Gracetruth (Rod Zach?)

Your use of Bible verses is stunning.

Jesus said:

Rev3:20  But I have against thee that thou permittest the woman Jezebel, (George and Betty, George got the service and Betty taught the women to keep quiet) she who calls herself prophetess, and she teaches and leads astray my servants to commit fornication and eat of idol sacrifices.  21  And I gave her time that she should repent, and she will not repent of her fornication.  22  Behold, I cast her into a bed, and those that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works,  23  and her children will I kill with death; and all the assemblies shall know that *I* am he that searches [the] reins and [the] hearts; and I will give to you each according to your works.

The saints in Thyatira should say, according to gracetruth:

Lord, none of us are without sin, so we must allow Jezebel to teach.  We dare not go against your word, by casting a stone.
Lord, who are we to judge?  We aren't going to judge Jezebel, because if we do, you will judge us even harsher
Lord, Lord, we don't want to put her out of the church, because then we would look like we thought we were serving you, and of course we might be decieved.

Lord, Lord, we don't want to stand against her evil deeds, we only want to be a blessing.

Lord, Lord, we don't want to act, we want to take the high road and let You be the judge.

This is what Thyatira did, and this is what Assembly folk do.  The results should be the same in both cases.

gracetruth, your missuse of the Bible is quite advanced,  you should be able to offend quite a few little ones.  The ability to hold your breath will not help, because it would be BETTER for you to swim with a millstone than the judgement that will come to you and your master.

Brent Tr0ckman  (my real name)

[Eulaha L. Long]

I am definitely not perfect, and I have sinned before, but I certainly will not defend an evil man like George Geftakys.  Even Jesus called out the pharisees and told them exactly what they were like.

[Mark C.]

Verne!  Well said!!
  Joe!  Laugh out loud and fall down funny
   It is almost as if "Gracetruth" is playing devils advocate here as his/her post's seem to be a cariacture of pre GG excommunication Assembly days!  Does anyone really still think this way?!
  I would also like to invite "Gracetruth" to further explain how we are to forgive someone who has sinned against God's people in such a horrendous way and yet remain adamantly unrepentant??!!  Under such criteria we should infer that ,"let us sin that grace might abound" is the attitude to adopt with GG.
  Others have answered very well here, but I had to add my 2 cents here as "Gracetruth's" posting is startling in it's lack of discernment, and as Verne suggests, a clear example of Assembly mindset.
          God Bless,  Mark

[4Him]

I also posted this on the same named thread under "My Work is Just Beginning" started by the same (anonymous) poster.

He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at George Geftakys.

John 8:7  But as they continued to ask Him, He lifted Himself up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness*, but shall have the light of life. (Jn 8:12)

*darkness - secrecy, anonymity (as in anonymous posting), the way George and the "work" operated for years and years (read "characteristics of workers").

Mr. Geftakys is not one of the sheep caught in "adultery".  He is a Pharisee/Sadducee/Scribe/etc. caught practicing wickedness and abusing many using his supposed God given authority as "God's Servant/Apostle".   Consider Jesus' extremely severe condemnation of such in Matthew 23.  The whole point in this is to provide means, which have been for decades, denied to those in the "assemblies" to escape and be able to enter into true liberty and grace.  (Try reading The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Johnson & VanVonderan.)  To hide abuse of power is to participate in the sin.  This issue w/GG has been addressed in a scriptural way:

1. Mt 18:15 - Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (This was done repeatedly by many over the years. George would not hear it!)

2. v. 16  But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (This was done.  Again, George would not repent!)

3. v. 17a - And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: (This was done. Once again, George refuses to repent.)

So, "gracetruth", what is left?    

4. v. 17b - but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

[Mark C.]

  I don't know Verne, but if he/she/it isn't joking it is difficult to accept how such an individual can really exist in this post GG excommunication age?  If it is for real then Brent is correct and there is now no doubt that GG is a full blown cult leader these days!  Jokes in the past re. koolaid will have to make a come back!
                                               God Bless,  Mark

[Joe Sperling]

George: "OK, now that Tim and Dave have left, let
him that is without sin amongst you cast the first stone
at me"

George jumps aside as a boulder rolls by.

George: "Betty! I thought I told you stay home!"

[4Him]

Hey Mark:
Do you really think he is just pulling our leg? It would be a relief if he were. Nontheless, we don't want to dissapoint him now do we?
Verne

Verne/Mark/Joe,
Thanks for the humor.  If gt is "pulling our leg(s)", he has certainly succeded in getting a rise out of us.  
Hopefully he/she has not been disappointed!  

[editor]

I didn't want to start another new topic.  I am becoming a "conservative" poster, so I wanted to put this idea down in an old thread, in order to get a years' worth of perspective on the whole thing.

Question:

What is the difference between persecution and rebuke?  I am asking this question in the Biblical sense,  and am using Biblical words and hopefully understanding their meaning.

From Strong's

1377 dioko {dee-o'-ko}
a prolonged (and causative) form of a primary verb dio (to flee;
cf the base of 1169 and 1249); TDNT - 2:229,177; v
AV - persecute 28, follow after 6, follow 4,
suffer persecution 3, misc 3; 44
1) to make to run or flee, put to flight, drive away
2) to run swiftly in order to catch a person or thing, to run after
2a) to press on: figuratively of one who in a race runs
swiftly to reach the goal
2b) to pursue (in a hostile manner)
3) in any way whatever to harass, trouble, molest one
3a) to persecute
3b) to be mistreated, suffer persecution on account of something
4) without the idea of hostility, to run after, follow after: someone
5) metaph., to pursue
5a) to seek after eagerly, earnestly endeavour to acquire

and....

1651 elegcho {el-eng'-kho}
of uncertain affinity; TDNT - 2:473,221; v
AV - reprove 6, rebuke 5, convince 4, tell (one's) fault 1,
convict 1; 17
1) to convict, refute, confute
1a) generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted
1b) by conviction to bring to the light, to expose
2) to find fault with, correct
2a) by word
2a1) to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove
2a2) to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation
2b) by deed
2b1) to chasten, to punish

It has been suggested that this forum constitutes persecution of Christians.  I maintain that there is a marked difference between persecution and rebuke.  What we have done here, in addition to speaking openly about things we deem important, is to call to account, show fault and demand explanations for certain things done by certain people in the Assembly.  Biblically, by definition, this falls under the category of rebuke.  However, if indeed there has been persecution, I would like to have someone point it out to me, so that I may avoid that type of thing.

Does anyone have any ideas about this?

Brent

[Recovering Saint]

Just a layman's perspective for what it is worth.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=persecution

persecution

The first great persecution for religious opinion of which we have any record was that which broke out against the worshippers of God among the Jews in the days of Ahab, when that king, at the instigation of his wife Jezebel, "a woman in whom, with the reckless and licentious habits of an Oriental queen, were united the fiercest and sternest qualities inherent in the old Semitic race", sought in the most relentless manner to extirpate the worship of Jehovah and substitute in its place the worship of Ashtoreth and Baal. Ahab's example in this respect was followed by Manasseh, who "shed innocent blood very much, till he had filled Jerusalem from one end to another" (2 Kings 21:16; comp. 24:4). In all ages, in one form or another, the people of God have had to suffer persecution. In its earliest history the Christian church passed through many bloody persecutions. Of subsequent centuries in our own and in other lands the same sad record may be made. Christians are forbidden to seek the propagation of the gospel by force (Matt. 7:1; Luke 9:54-56; Rom. 14:4; James 4:11, 12). The words of Ps. 7:13, "He ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors," ought rather to be, as in the Revised Version, "He maketh his arrows fiery [shafts]."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=rebuke

rebuke

n : an expression of criticism and censure; "he had to take the rebuke with a smile on his face" [syn: reproof, reproval, reprehension, reprimand] v : censure severely or angrily; "The mother scolded the child for entering the stranger's car"; "The deputy ragged the Prime Minister"; "The customer dressed down the waiter for bringing cold soup"; "check" is archaic [syn: check, rag, reproof, lecture, reprimand, jaw, dress down, scold, chide, berate, bawl out, remonstrate, chew out, chew up, have words, lambaste, lambast]

In my opinion

Persecution is like a person who is trying to wipe out the opponent because they don't like what they say or do.

Rebuke is to strongly oppose verbally what others are doing which is objectionable to them.