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Author Topic: New Earth/Old Earth  (Read 53124 times)
Will Jones
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« Reply #75 on: April 01, 2003, 10:44:25 am »

This thread has the same issue as the Egyptian Mythology thread, namely, how people regard the Bible and how it is interpreted.

 Smiley  Arthur, I am not chasing you onto another thread, but am encouraged by what you have said,
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It would be arrogant and foolish of me to claim that I know the truth completely and fully and that everyone else is wrong.... I believe that the Bible states the truth.  And I want to understand what it is saying because I want to know the truth.

Nobody is arguing over the fact that the Bible states the truth, but if every word in the Bible is THE TRUTH as God wanted it written.  The Bible never claims to be inerrant in matters of science as some Christians today claim.  If you drop this idea of inerrancy in matters of science then there is no problem.  Science and faith will not be in conflict.   Cheesy

We tend to read and interpret things from our modern perspective and that can cause misunderstanding when reading the Bible.  As Joseph Campbell pointed out, people of the past spoke in a different language than we did:  they spoke in the language of mythology and we speak in the language of science and rationalism that was started by the Greeks.  We have to take this into consideration when we, as moderns, read what the ancients wrote about the universe.  Science, though fallible and biased, is based on observation and experimentation.  Ancient people who wrote the Bible did not have the same possibility to examine the universe as we do today via telescopes,  etc.  It was Galileo who used this new invention and the problems started.  Modern findings conflict with the primitive way the ancients viewed and wrote about the universe--end of story.  That issue cannot be skirted around because other works written at the time that scholars have studied demonstrate that ancient peoples believed in an incorrect cosmological reality that the Bible describes--the dome of heaven, heaven held up with pillars, windows of heaven opening, etc.  In other words, it is not just poetic language; it is a type of pre-scientific language that is off the mark by today's observations.  Yes there are passages in the Bible that hint at the world being round, etc. that are often quoted by apologists, but there are plenty of others that are ignored that betray an incorrect cosmological understanding.  

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As far as the Gen 1 account, I do not believe that it is poetry or a metaphor or any other such thing.  I believe it is literal.

If you, Arthur, believe it is literal, you encounter a problem with scientists and the fact that it simply does not make sense according to our modern understanding, e.g., light being created before the sun, etc.  Besides, scholars have demonstrated quite clearly that there are two creation stories in Genesis.  Genesis 1 was based on the Enuma Elish, the Babylonian creation story, to show that God alone made the universe, not a group of gods.  Here is the best contrast I have seen on the internet thus far:  Comparison of 1st Creation Story with Babylonian Creation Story
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_bibl.htm

If a person accepts this relatively recent finding, there is no conflict to speak of whatsoever between science and faith.

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Biblical scholarship has suggested some alternative readings for the Genesis account of creation:

(1) The Genesis account should be read as an allegory for the power of God.

(2) The Genesis account is a monotheistic updating of Mesopotamian creation myths.

(3) The Genesis account represents the early cosmogony of a primitive nomadic desert tribe, and, as such, should not be taken seriously today. There is a marked difference between the anthropomorphic God of Genesis and the later more sophisticated concepts of a transcendent, immaterial, unknowable God.

(4) The Genesis account became contaminated by error in transmission or by pagan mythology during the many centuries that elapsed between the original conception and the time that the book was committed to writing. The Bible has many accounts of intrusion of polytheistic beliefs into the early worship of Yahweh (Exodus 32:1-5, Numbers 25:1-5, Judges 3:7-8).

(5) The writers of the Genesis narratives could not have known either the age of the earth or the order of appearance of plants and animals; they wrote the best account they could with the knowledge available to them.
Taken from http://www.cesame-nm.org/Viewpoint/contributions/bible/summary.html

Also of great interest from the same site:
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Biblical inerrancy is not a major concern for the majority of Roman Catholics, and Pope John Paul II has affirmed that evolution is a proper field of study for Catholics. Most Jews do not consider factual accuracy of the Genesis account to be an important point. Of course, inerrancy is not accepted at all by atheists, agnostics, and adherents of other faiths. The majority of Christians believe that the Bible, although inspired, is the work of human authors, and that it could have been influenced by the popular beliefs at the time of writing, and are not deeply troubled by evidence of inconsistency in some parts. However, those whose faith rests almost entirely on a firm belief in total, literal infallibility of every word naturally feel extreme dissonance when parts of the Bible are contradicted by scientific facts.

The doctrine of biblical inerrancy arose in the 19th century in opposition to scholarly study of the Bible and to the growth of science. The question did not seriously trouble believers prior to the work of Hutton and Lyell; until the age of the earth was known, most Christians could accept the Genesis account. The belief in total inerrancy has grown especially since the 1920s, and is hence of relatively recent vintage. The doctrine is most strongly held in the rural South and border States. There is also a significant presence of Fundamentalism in California, possibly as a legacy of the large influx of poor, dispossessed farmers from Oklahoma and Arkansas during the depression years.

Even the earliest commentaries asserted that the Bible was the product of human authors. The earliest Jewish and Christian scholars were principally concerned with resolving discrepancies and contradictions. The concept of "allegorism" (the literal interpretation of a passage is subsidiary to a deeper meaning) was espoused by the Jewish scholar Philo Judaeus at the beginning of the Christian era and was also accepted by early Christian scholars like Origen, for example. Saint Augustine of Hippo warned that a literal reading of Genesis could obscure the deeper meaning. He also warned that palpably illogical readings of Scripture could bring Christianity into disrepute among intelligent unbelievers.

Augustine's concern, "illogical readings of Scripture could bring Christianity into disrepute among intelligent unbelievers," was my whole point in bringing up the potential dangers in trying to sell the Bible as inerrant in matters of science.

No Biblical inerrancy, no problem.  Science and faith do not have to be in conflict.   Grin
« Last Edit: April 01, 2003, 10:48:20 am by Will Jones » Logged
4Him
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« Reply #76 on: May 06, 2003, 10:05:17 am »

Andrea---
I enjoy talking about it also.

...read John Barnhouse's book "The Invisible War"---it is a very interesting book, but filled with far more than conjecture--there are many things in the book to help with your walk--in regards to warfare, etc. ...
Another good book that deals with this is "The Fingerprint of God" by Hugh Ross. I find the whole thing to be very interesting, and exciting in a way. there are many things the Bible doesn't tell us---but may give us a glimpse, a very small glimpse---enough to make you wonder. And there's nothing wrong with that or God wouldn't have given us imaginations.
Take care,  Joe
Joe,
Thanks for your recommendation regarding The Invisible War by John Barnhouse.  I bought it and started to read it at first because I was interested in the Genesis 1:1-2 interpretation (his is very sound) but the book goes so much farther!  It is well written, easy to read and sticks to Scripture.
BTW, I read The Fingerprint of God quite some time ago and found it very compelling as well.
Again,
Thanks!
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sfortescue
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« Reply #77 on: May 13, 2003, 06:15:07 am »

For a long time I had dismissed the idea of anything resembling evolution because of the extraordinary improbabilities involved.  Even given 4 billion years, the age of the earth as estimated by scientists, there is no way evolution could have happened in such an extremely short period of time.  This argument is the strongest one that creationists have.  But my perspective changed somewhat after reading about the quantum theory.  There is something unusual about the way subatomic particles behave that scientists still haven't been able to explain.

One form of explanation that scientists don't like to talk about has to do with the teleological nature of the equations.  The quantum equations are used to calculate probabilities.  The probability of a given state is calculated by multiplying the amplitude of the wave function by its conjugate.  The interesting thing is that conjugation is the time-reversal operator, so the probability is calculated by multiplying the wave function by the time-reversed wave function.  Intuitively, the probability is proportional to the product of the number of possible pasts of a given state multiplied by the number of possible futures of a given state.  This gives the number of possible time lines that pass through a given state.  According to the quantum principle called the democracy of histories, all possible time lines are considered equally probable.  But of course there are selection rules that determine which time lines are considered possible.  So all God has to do is specify, as one of the selection rules, what the outcome should be, and the quantum equations say that the universe will behave in a goal oriented manner to produce the desired outcome.

Of course, the question still remains as to how the universe could do such a thing.  Years ago, I remember seeing seeming reversal of causality while debugging circuit boards for closed-loop motion control systems.  In normal debugging, if you see good signals going into a part and bad signals coming out, the part is probably bad.  When debugging a closed loop control system, the reverse rule seems to work: if you see bad signals going into a part and good signals coming out, then the part is probably bad.  This analogy would seem to suggest that the universe is part of a larger complex system which, in order to cope with the complexity of the control system, would need to possess a very high intrinsic intelligence.  Perhaps when God said, "Let there be light," he was speaking to this highly intelligent entity that he had created, which understood and then carried out the command, using its intelligence to figure out how to do it.

The problem with conventional directed evolution (and the similar ideas of Hugh Ross) is that it consists of an arbitary mixture of laws of physics and exceptions which are thrown in to make the result come out right.  It's like cheating when you are playing a game.  If you cheat enough times, then why have rules in the first place.  You aren't really playing the game if you aren't following the rules.  The quantum form of directed evolution overcomes this objection because the rules are never broken.
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Oscar
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« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2003, 08:47:37 am »


Steve, you said:

The problem with conventional directed evolution (and the similar ideas of Hugh Ross) is that it consists of an arbitary mixture of laws of physics and exceptions which are thrown in to make the result come out right.  It's like cheating when you are playing a game.  If you cheat enough times, then why have rules in the first place.  You aren't really playing the game if you aren't following the rules.  The quantum form of directed evolution overcomes this objection because the rules are never broken.


I have known Hugh Ross since 1993.  I can tell you definitely that he does not believe in directed evolution.  He is a progressive creationist.
I don't know enough about quantum physics to discuss your ideas with you Steve, but I do know that many of the astronomers, physicists, biologists, planetary scientists and others associated with Hugh Ross' ministry do.  Well, maybe not the biologists.
Why don't you state your idea in the form of a question and send it to them at www.reasons.org  ?

BTW, all of his books are peer reviewed before publication, so what is in them has had to get past some pretty high powered folks.


God bless,
Thomas Maddux
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Arthur
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« Reply #79 on: May 15, 2003, 11:28:22 pm »

For a long time I had dismissed the idea of anything resembling evolution because of the extraordinary improbabilities involved.  Even given 4 billion years, the age of the earth as estimated by scientists, there is no way evolution could have happened in such an extremely short period of time.  

This is a non-issue, isn't it?  1. Life doesn't just spontaneously generate out of rocks--no matter how much time elapses and 2.  Pond scum doesn't turn into a dog--no matter how much time elapses.  The whole idea is preposterous.
The Bible says that God created the heavens and the earth--plants, birds, cats, dogs, people--'nuff said.  

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One form of explanation that scientists don't like to talk about has to do with the teleological nature of the equations.  The quantum equations are used to calculate probabilities.  The probability of a given state is calculated by multiplying the amplitude of the wave function by its conjugate.  

You said that there are equations to calculate probabilities.  A probability is "the likelihood that a given event will occur".  Is there a particular event that you are referring to or all the possible events in a non-existent 4 billion years?  

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The interesting thing is that conjugation is the time-reversal operator, so the probability is calculated by multiplying the wave function by the time-reversed wave function.  Intuitively, the probability is proportional to the product of the number of possible pasts of a given state multiplied by the number of possible futures of a given state.  This gives the number of possible time lines that pass through a given state.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the number of possible pasts or futures infinite?  

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According to the quantum principle called the democracy of histories, all possible time lines are considered equally probable.  But of course there are selection rules that determine which time lines are considered possible.

Interesting, and what are the selection rules and who determines them?

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So all God has to do is specify, as one of the selection rules, what the outcome should be, and the quantum equations say that the universe will behave in a goal oriented manner to produce the desired outcome.

All God had to do was say "Let there be light".  Heheh, much more simple.   He doesn't have to fiddle with equations or our bumbling attempts at understanding his divine order.

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Of course, the question still remains as to how the universe could do such a thing.  

Answer:  'cause God said so.  
Any other questions?  Smiley

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Years ago, I remember seeing seeming reversal of causality while debugging circuit boards for closed-loop motion control systems.  In normal debugging, if you see good signals going into a part and bad signals coming out, the part is probably bad.  When debugging a closed loop control system, the reverse rule seems to work: if you see bad signals going into a part and good signals coming out, then the part is probably bad.  This analogy would seem to suggest that the universe is part of a larger complex system which, in order to cope with the complexity of the control system, would need to possess a very high intrinsic intelligence.  

God doesn't need to cope with anything.  He's the designer, he's perfect, and he has infinite knowledge--this is his universe.

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Perhaps when God said, "Let there be light," he was speaking to this highly intelligent entity that he had created, which understood and then carried out the command, using its intelligence to figure out how to do it.

Oh my, that sounds like the Jehovah's Witnesses.  I hope you don't actually believe that.


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The problem with conventional directed evolution (and the similar ideas of Hugh Ross) is that it consists of an arbitary mixture of laws of physics and exceptions which are thrown in to make the result come out right.  It's like cheating when you are playing a game.  If you cheat enough times, then why have rules in the first place.  You aren't really playing the game if you aren't following the rules.  The quantum form of directed evolution overcomes this objection because the rules are never broken.

Yep. It would seem to me that it is the height of hubris for man to think he is able to deduce how it (the universe/creation) all happened (came into being, is maintained, etc.) with observations and calculations.  Man has created a fantasy world of half-truths (and some just plain wacko ideas) and then thinks that by abiding by its rules he has arrived at "the truth".  Guess again, Hugh, et al!  


Interesting  post, Stephen. Thank you for sharing.
Teleological indeed!  It is all in God's hands.  There is order in chaos ("for God is not the author of confusion but of peace").  Man thinks he's smart in that he can predict the weather fairly accurately up to three days.
But God holds all possibilities in the palm of his hand.  He wields all possible time-lines with surety and sovereignty.
God has infinite knowledge; he knows the end from the beginning.  For example, God knew from the foundations of the earth what Abraham would be like and what actions he would perform, and he chose him.  He had the whole plan of redemption planned out from the beginning. "The foolishness of God is wiser than men."


"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!  For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?  Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?  For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."
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sfortescue
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« Reply #80 on: May 16, 2003, 05:19:51 am »


One form of explanation that scientists don't like to talk about has to do with the teleological nature of the equations.  The quantum equations are used to calculate probabilities.  The probability of a given state is calculated by multiplying the amplitude of the wave function by its conjugate.  

You said that there are equations to calculate probabilities.  A probability is "the likelihood that a given event will occur".  Is there a particular event that you are referring to or all the possible events in a non-existent 4 billion years?  
The word "state" as used in quantum theory refers to a slice through the universe at a given instant of time, and involves specifying the position of every sub-atomic particle in the universe.  The wave function is a function of the positions of all those particles.
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The interesting thing is that conjugation is the time-reversal operator, so the probability is calculated by multiplying the wave function by the time-reversed wave function.  Intuitively, the probability is proportional to the product of the number of possible pasts of a given state multiplied by the number of possible futures of a given state.  This gives the number of possible time lines that pass through a given state.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the number of possible pasts or futures infinite?  
Only if the universe is of infinite size or the time extent toward the past or future is infinite.  But admittedly it is a very, very large number.  And this is an understatement.
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According to the quantum principle called the democracy of histories, all possible time lines are considered equally probable.  But of course there are selection rules that determine which time lines are considered possible.

Interesting, and what are the selection rules and who determines them?
Some of the selection rules have to do with defining the laws of physics in the classical sense, while others have to do with boundary conditions, such as the beginning and end.  For example, if you hold a string taut, the positions of two ends of the string in your hands are the positions of your hands, while the positions of the parts of the string in between are determined by the rule of the shortest distance between two points.
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Years ago, I remember seeing seeming reversal of causality while debugging circuit boards for closed-loop motion control systems.  In normal debugging, if you see good signals going into a part and bad signals coming out, the part is probably bad.  When debugging a closed loop control system, the reverse rule seems to work: if you see bad signals going into a part and good signals coming out, then the part is probably bad.  This analogy would seem to suggest that the universe is part of a larger complex system which, in order to cope with the complexity of the control system, would need to possess a very high intrinsic intelligence.  

God doesn't need to cope with anything.  He's the designer, he's perfect, and he has infinite knowledge--this is his universe.
An example of such a complex control system is the ear.  The cochlea is spiral in shape, like a snail.  Along the inside of the tube of it is the tectorial membrane, along which are three rows of outer hair cells and one row of inner har cells.  The inner hair cells are sensors, while the outer hair cells are actuators.  The brain analyzes the signals from the inner hair cells and produces signals to feed back to the outer hair cells to counteract and cancel the sound waves being received by the inner hair cells.  The advantage of this scheme is that it makes it much easier for the inner hair cells to pick up faint sounds out of much louder background sounds.  In order for the brain to do this cancellation, it is necessary for it to do a complete harmonic analysis of the sound being received.  This accounts for our sense of harmony in music.  Some people lack functioning outer hair cells and are therefore tone deaf and also have a hard time with noisy environments.  I remember one person in the assembly in Fullerton with that problem.
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Perhaps when God said, "Let there be light," he was speaking to this highly intelligent entity that he had created, which understood and then carried out the command, using its intelligence to figure out how to do it.

Oh my, that sounds like the Jehovah's Witnesses.  I hope you don't actually believe that.
I have no idea what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe.  The thing that I have thought it might resemble was the "Christian Science" belief, except that in their view, the thing I call a highly intelligent entity created by God, they call God.  I tend to see this highly intelligent entity as being something like a computer into which God types in commands.
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Interesting  post, Stephen. Thank you for sharing.
Teleological indeed!  It is all in God's hands.  There is order in chaos ("for God is not the author of confusion but of peace").  Man thinks he's smart in that he can predict the weather fairly accurately up to three days.  But God holds all possibilities in the palm of his hand.  He wields all possible time-lines with surety and sovereignty.  God has infinite knowledge; he knows the end from the beginning.  For example, God knew from the foundations of the earth what Abraham would be like and what actions he would perform, and he chose him.  He had the whole plan of redemption planned out from the beginning. "The foolishness of God is wiser than men."

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!  For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?  Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?  For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."
By the way, the word "teleological" is the physicist's term for predestination.  The Bible talks about predestination, and it is interesting that the physicists have found evidence for it.
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Arthur
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« Reply #81 on: June 04, 2003, 03:38:39 am »

Stephen, I re-read what you wrote and find this topic fascinating.  Please let's continue this conversation.


For a long time I had dismissed the idea of anything resembling evolution because of the extraordinary improbabilities involved.  Even given 4 billion years, the age of the earth as estimated by scientists, there is no way evolution could have happened in such an extremely short period of time.  This argument is the strongest one that creationists have.  But my perspective changed somewhat after reading about the quantum theory.  There is something unusual about the way subatomic particles behave that scientists still haven't been able to explain.

One form of explanation that scientists don't like to talk about has to do with the teleological nature of the equations.  

Why is it, would you say, that scientists do not like to talk about this?

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The quantum equations are used to calculate probabilities.  The probability of a given state is calculated by multiplying the amplitude of the wave function by its conjugate.  The interesting thing is that conjugation is the time-reversal operator, so the probability is calculated by multiplying the wave function by the time-reversed wave function.  Intuitively, the probability is proportional to the product of the number of possible pasts of a given state multiplied by the number of possible futures of a given state.  

The word "state" as used in quantum theory refers to a slice through the universe at a given instant of time, and involves specifying the position of every sub-atomic particle in the universe.  The wave function is a function of the positions of all those particles.

Let me see if I can get this straight.  What you're saying is that, every sub-atomic particle in the universe has a three-dimensional position in the universe.  This position can change with time (the 4th dimension).  If I wanted to know the probability of the state of the universe(i.e. the position of all the sub-atomic particles) at a given time, then I would multiply the number of past probabilities by the number of future probabilities for that state.  Correct?  And this would give me a wave function by which I could pinpoint a particular instant in time and say, "OK, I want the probability for the given state at that point"?

Let's take a baseball game for an example (I saw this on the Star Trek:DS9 pilot Smiley  
Before the game begins, anything can happen.  Or can it?  Actually, according to what you are saying, there is a fixed number of probabilities that can take place (albeit, a very large number, so large that we as limited humans would see it as infinite or "anything can happen").  What you're saying is that the probability that the state of the baseball game will be such that there will be runners on first and third with one out in the top of the second inning, and that John Smith will hit a 2-2 pitch down the third base line can be calculated by multiplying the number of past probabilities by the number of future probabilities for that state.  Correct?

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This gives the number of possible time lines that pass through a given state.
I'm trying to envision a wave function that has multiple (time) lines running through points.  What does it look like--a Lorenz attractor?  

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According to the quantum principle called the democracy of histories, all possible time lines are considered equally probable.  But of course there are selection rules that determine which time lines are considered possible.  So all God has to do is specify, as one of the selection rules, what the outcome should be, and the quantum equations say that the universe will behave in a goal oriented manner to produce the desired outcome.

the selection rules could be like the rules of baseball...or chess?

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Of course, the question still remains as to how the universe could do such a thing.  Years ago, I remember seeing seeming reversal of causality while debugging circuit boards for closed-loop motion control systems.  In normal debugging, if you see good signals going into a part and bad signals coming out, the part is probably bad.  When debugging a closed loop control system, the reverse rule seems to work: if you see bad signals going into a part and good signals coming out, then the part is probably bad.  

In a closed loop, yes.

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This analogy would seem to suggest that the universe is part of a larger complex system which, in order to cope with the complexity of the control system, would need to possess a very high intrinsic intelligence.  Perhaps when God said, "Let there be light," he was speaking to this highly intelligent entity that he had created, which understood and then carried out the command, using its intelligence to figure out how to do it.

Why would God need to speak this to anyone.  He could do it himself.  Indeed, the Bible says he did create all things, and he is the one who keeps them.  The Bible says, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork." And, "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high."
I mentioned the Jehovah's Witness because they believe that God created Jesus first, and through him the rest was created.  

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The problem with conventional directed evolution (and the similar ideas of Hugh Ross) is that it consists of an arbitary mixture of laws of physics and exceptions which are thrown in to make the result come out right.  It's like cheating when you are playing a game.  If you cheat enough times, then why have rules in the first place.  You aren't really playing the game if you aren't following the rules.  The quantum form of directed evolution overcomes this objection because the rules are never broken.

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Joe Sperling
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« Reply #82 on: June 04, 2003, 05:51:42 am »

This "Old Earth/New earth" thread is one of the oldest
threads on the bulletin board. I know some would say it's only been around for 6 days or so, but I feel this thread must be much older than that. If there were only a way to prove it......
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Arthur
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« Reply #83 on: June 04, 2003, 07:48:31 am »

This "Old Earth/New earth" thread is one of the oldest
threads on the bulletin board. I know some would say it's only been around for 6 days or so, but I feel this thread must be much older than that. If there were only a way to prove it......

LoL, Joe you are too funny!!   Grin Grin

Oh, but there is a way to prove it.  There is a written record stating how old it is, much like (and here's the clincher) there is in the Bible.  Smiley  
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Joe Sperling
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« Reply #84 on: June 04, 2003, 08:10:29 pm »

Arthur---

 Grin Grin Grin

---Joe
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