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Author Topic: Did brother George say that the Lord Jesus has forever been the Son of Man?  (Read 7140 times)
soul dreamer
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« on: March 15, 2003, 05:01:37 am »

I hope the following helps clear up what I think brother George was trying to say.  With respect to his deity, the Lord Jesus is the eternal Word, the changeless Word who was with God and who was God (John 1:1).  As the eternal Word, from eternity past through eternity future he is always perfect, he cannot be "improved," he cannot change.  He declares in Malachi 3:6, "I am Yahweh; I change not."  On the other hand, with respect to his humanity, he grew in wisdom and stature and he learned obedience through suffering - he changed.  I am sure George would agree there was a point in time when the Word became flesh.  I think he was commenting on the fact that in the mind of God from eternity past, the Lord Jesus Christ has always been the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13, verse eight).  In the mind of God, his manhood and also his crucifixion as a man were decreed from eternity past.  In the mind of Him who inhabits eternity, these facts were always present.  So in that respect the Lord Jesus has always been the Son of Man.

These things are hard to be uttered.  On the one hand, we see scriptures that reveal the Lord Jesus Christ as God.  He is the eternal "I AM," the all-powerful God who upholds all things by the word of his power, who commands wind and waves, the all-knowing One who searches our innermost thoughts, the omnipresent Emmanuel (God with us), and he is the immutable God - Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, and forever.

On the other hand, scripture shows us Jesus the man, being conceived, being born, growing in wisdom and stature, learning obedience by things that he suffered, thirsting, hungering, sleeping, being crucified in weakness, being forsaken as he bears our sins in his own body on the cross, dying, being buried, and rising to life.  The difficulty is in seeing the Lord Jesus both as God and man at the same time.  The suckling Babe is the Christ who is holding all things together, including his mother from whom he is receiving nourishment.  The Babe who could not walk or talk at the same time is the Christ who walks upon the wings of the wind, who makes the clouds his chariots, who speaks, "Let there be light," and it is so.  The Fountain of Living Waters cries upon the cross, "I thirst."  The ever-living one who has life in himself (Jn. 5:26), at one time was dead and buried in a tomb.

Now let us ask ourselves some technical questions.  Is the Lord Jesus God?  Yes.  Did Jesus die on the cross? Yes. Then, did God die on the cross?  No, Jesus as a man died on the cross.  As the eternal Son, he is forever in the bosom of the Father.  

Again, does God know all things?  Yes, "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world" (Ac 15:18).  "He tells the number of the stars; he calls them all by name.  Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite" (Ps. 147:4-5).  "There is nothing new under the sun" (Ec. 1:9).  Did the Lord Jesus increase in wisdom?  Yes, Luke 2:52 says so.  So, did God increase in wisdom, knowledge, or experience?  No, as a man the Lord Jesus increased in knowledge.  But, he did not add any knowledge to God.  From eternity past God has already known what it feels like to be a limited human being, or, for that matter, to be an ant.  But now in time there is a Man to whom we can go who is "touched with all the feeling of our infirmities, yet without sin" (Heb. 4:15).  This Man is also God, so he able to deliver from the "guttermost" of defilement to the uttermost of glory, all those who come to God by him (see Heb. 7:25).

There are things about God that truly only He himself can fully understand.  The Lord Jesus Christ said, "All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him" (Mt. 11:27).  This verse is the context of his famous words in verse 28: "Come unto me, all ye who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."  Only the Father sees at the same time both the fullness of the deity of the Lord Jesus and his sinless humanity.  It is too much for our finite minds to comprehend, but as we go to the Son we shall find rest for our souls.   Smiley
« Last Edit: June 01, 2006, 08:42:54 pm by Rick Samuel » Logged
Oscar
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2003, 09:42:19 am »



The early church struggled with these questions until at least the 5th century. These are important but difficult questions.

Many solutions were proposed.  Some of them were;

1. Arianism-Jesus was a man indwelt by a created being that was a sort of a divine energy.  This took the place of a rational soul in Christ. Jesus was neither God nor man.

2. Apollinarianism-The man Jesus was indwelt by the Logos, the second member of the Trinity.  He was a real man but his human spirit was the Logos.  He had human animal life, but the Logos for a mind.

3.Nestorianism.  Christ had two natures, divine and human.  They remained distinct and only cooperated.  Jesus was sort of two people at the same time.

4. Eutychianism, or "monophysitism".  Christ had only one nature.  The divinity so floods the humanity that the humanity is absorbed.  

5. There were others.  These show that it was a real struggle.  It is a knotty problem.

The church leadership defined and refined the creeds about the Trinity and the Incarnation through several councils, such as Nicea, 329, Constantinople, 381, Ephesus, 431, and Chalcedon, 451.  There were other councils and synods but these are the major ones up to 451.

At Chalcedon they decided on a sort of minimum statement.  They set some limits on what could be said that are sometimes called the "Chalcedonian Box".  This had four "sides".
1. Christ is fully God.
2. Christ is fully man.
3. Christ is one person
4. The two natures are distinct.

They wrote a Chalcedonian creed that dealt very specifically with the errors of the past, and this is what most Christians would agree with today.

When GG or Tim G. started in on this sort of thing, they were in danger of making the same errors that Arius and friends made in the past.     Arrogance and ignorance are dangerous things when the issue is salvation of souls.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux
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4Him
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« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2003, 10:43:43 am »

Yes "brother" George did, and as has been attested to on this board, so apparently did Tim G.

PS - I personally hesitate to use the endearing term Brother George for that man any more.  He in no way deserves that honor! Tongue
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