So WHO Is Decieved???

[M2]

MM----

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just
to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all
unrighteousness"(1 John 1:9).

Full restoration is immediately available to all of us.

God bless,  Joe

So then....

If we pray and seek the Lord, then He will show us the error of GG's teaching, because we have the Bible and the Holy Spirit to guide us.  Why is there a need to disband an existing assembly that has repented?

Marcia

[Joe Sperling]

If everyone truly has repented I wouldn't see a need for everyone to disband. But it might be a better idea if they did and I'll give this reason: When I left the Assembly I had to do a lot (and still am to this day) of "unlearning". So much of the stuff is so engrained in you it's hard to shake it off. In any group of people there are always going to be a few who want to hold onto some of the old teachings and begin to teach them again.

So it seems to me it would be better for everyone to go and sit under some real solid Bible teaching, and get themselves straightened out first. Get away from the pull of the Assembly and get solid on what is truly the teaching of God.

This is just my opinion of course,  so I hope others will share their opinions on this too.

take care,  Joe

[Joseph Reisinger]

Joe, I am of the same mind.  While there may not be anything inherently wrong with what is presently going on in an assembly - assuming everyone has repented - I think there is nothing particularly awesome about the assembly either to keep you.  And there is much to be learned/unlearned by going to a place that you know is solidly founded on biblical principles, that doesn't have the weight of 20 years of mistakes hanging over its head.  One thing that kept me going to the assembly in chicago for these past months, is the fact that I truly love each one there - and I know they love me.  However, I have seen, by God's grace, that we can still have great fellowship together, though we may not attend the same physical gathering.  Praise God for His church, which has no physical or geographical boundaries.
Joseph

[Arthur]

So then....

If we pray and seek the Lord, then He will show us the error of GG's teaching, because we have the Bible and the Holy Spirit to guide us.  Why is there a need to disband an existing assembly that has repented?

Marcia

That's funny--we were all on our knees with an open Bible praying that God would lead us and we were doing this for years while in the assembly.   Yet...hey wouldn't you know it, we were decieved anyway.  Hmm, maybe, just maybe that religious practise doesn't guarantee anything any more than praying the rosary.

The reason assemblies should disband is so that the people in them can get out from being under the influence of the assembly system.  George is gone, hu-rah, but the system is still there, and peeps staying in it are like addicts having a drip-line I.V. of heroin continually pumped into their system.
They need to yank that out and get their heads cleared.  It may be painful and they'll go through withdrawals, but they'll be clear-headed once again.  

I don't believe it can be an instaneous healing.  I think people who say that are still smokin' some assembly dope on the side and trying to pretend they aren't.

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone!
  Arthur makes an excellent point!  I've mentioned before the response from a would be Assembly reformist where he couldn't understand why I thought he needed to sit under instruction before he sought to lead his group onto reformation from the scourge of Geftakyism.  His response was, "can't the Holy Spirit lead us?!"
  True reformation is indeed the work of the Holy Spirit, but how does the Holy Spirit accomplish this task?  Rom 12:1 tells us to be "transformed in the spirit of our minds" (the key word is "mind").
   There is a false kind of elitist spirituality that believes that thinking is opposed to the Spirit.  "Oh, there's a kind of thinking that goes into the process", they may say, "but it is a "spiritual perspective" vs. a carnal view.  
   A carnal view is just reasoning from self centered sinful desires, and a spiritual view pursues God's will as it is clearly revealed in scripture (nothing that requires a special revelation in prayer).
   The Assembly was steeped in the elitist spirituality that I mention above ("The Lord showed me this, and the Lord showed me that").  You would think with all this individual insight being received in the Assembly there would be anarchy, but there was a twist that GG added, and that was his revelations trumped everyone else's; thus our thinking was forced into deceptive patterns through years of GG indoctrination.
   To know the leading of the Holy Spirit we must first understand that we have been deceived through the acceptance of these erroneous patterns of thought.  This is why reformation of the old system is impossible, as the whole basis is faulty.
   "Why is that Mark?  If I have the Bible and the Spirit, are they not enough?"  The JW's have the Bible and think they have the Spirit, the Mormons, and a better example would be the "Jesus Only" pentecostal church; it's what they think the Holy Spirit and the Bible are telling them, but they are in error.  It would be folly to try and reform the JW's from inside, because only a total repudiation of their teaching can lead to a mind that would be receptive to a different way of viewing things.
  As ex-Assemblyites there is so much that must be altered in our thinking.  There was false understanding of how we hear God's voice through the Word, how one understands the struggle with sin in the Christian life, the proper boundaries between others, etc.
  The idea that after 20 years plus of indoctrination somebody can pick out what is baby or bath water from the Assembly distortion would be similar to do it yourself brain surgery blind folded!  This is why God has gifted the church with teachers: Read them, listen to them, and then pray and study the Word for a fresh perspective.
                                 God Bless,  Mark
   

[psalm51]

I am wondering what would be a good response to someone who tells you over and over the Lord showed me this, or the Lord led me here, or the Lord told me that, or the Lord didn't tell me to leave the assembly, etc.
How do you argue with someone's experience? Serious answers please!
Thanks.

[brian]

So then....

If we pray and seek the Lord, then He will show us the error of GG's teaching, because we have the Bible and the Holy Spirit to guide us.  Why is there a need to disband an existing assembly that has repented?

Marcia

personally, i am very uncomfortable with telling people what they should and should not do in these cases. i think the most important thing is to be sure you are making your own decision, consciously, and not being led in any direction by someone else or simply doing things out of comfortable habit. i think each person deciding for themselves is closer to freedom than a blanket decision either way. that being said, if an former assembly group does decide to keep meeting, i think there are a few things they need to watch very, very carefully.
1) do not allow yourselves to stay isolated - have meetings with other churches, talk with outside pastors, get involved with your local christian community (NOT merely other assemblies! *klaxon alarm*). there are many many home bible studies that get just as far into left field as the assemblies were. spiritual isolation is what allows this to continue unchecked.
2) realize you are not God's special little flock on the face of the earth. you might be a very nice little flock, but there is nothing (good) happening in your group that is not happening in other churches right there in your town/city - no matter how genuinely inspiring it is to think highly of yourselves, or to preach along those lines.
3) watch the controlling attitudes! do not let the men start getting all excited about what great leaders they are. good leadership ability is a wonderful thing - the ability to control/intimidate/manipulate others is a very different and very ugly beast. get a tv. take dance lessons. drink wine with dinner. quit saying you've "got a burden" for things. when you feel like saying brother or sister, say the person's name. small groups where people all say/do the same 'insider' things are just creepy, and an open display of controlling and conforming attitudes. and they are soooo comfortable after the habits of years have been formed - that is part of the insidious dangers people who have left are warning you about. by leaving you are forced to leave all these things behind - by staying you might not have to (dosen't that feel nice? )
4) give public accounting of how much money was received every week and how it is being spent. refusing to do this is extremely dangerous and very comfortable.

there is lots more of course, but these are some red flags that pop into my head.

i think its very helpful to remain good friends with those who leave, and remain good friends with those who stay - as much as possible. people who leave often very quickly run out of patience with people who stay, and people who stay too often want to isolate themselves from the outside perspectives of those who have left. staying in touch with each other is just another way of staying connected to the wider christian community in a healthy way, imho. it dosen't mean that those who have left should pull any punches on pointing out wierdnesses developing in the groups, but honest discussion shouldn't close any doors. if it does, as apparently happens frequently in some CA former assemblies, then friendship is just not possible, and you must stand your ground for the truth. i want to be clear that i am not saying to overlook deceptions in order to maintain old friendships - that is not being a friend. but i think it is unnecessarily harsh to close the door on someone just because they are still meeting with a former assembly group.

there is so much more to say. i gotta go *sigh*

brian

ps i am so glad we can all talk about these things openly  

[sfortescue]

I am wondering what would be a good response to someone who tells you over and over the Lord showed me this, or the Lord led me here, or the Lord told me that, or the Lord didn't tell me to leave the assembly, etc.
How do you argue with someone's experience? Serious answers please!
Thanks.

Someone who claims to be led by the Lord so often and in so many details, will be likely to discover later that some of those decisions didn't turn out so well.  Perhaps you could point out some flawed decisions that you notice.

A family member frequently quotes Prov. 3:5-6 as a defense against suggestions to be more careful about the consequences of various decisions.  There are other proverbs that suggest that we need advice.  Other people can be the means the Lord uses to direct our paths.

PROV 11:14
Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

PROV 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

PROV 24:6
For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety.

[Joe Sperling]

Joseph----


Just out of curiosity---you mentioned attending the
Assembly in Chicago. it's been years and years ago,
but there used to be a brother named "Guy Moore"
who fellowshiped there----would he still be attending
the Assembkly there?

--Joe

[Mark C.]

Hi Pat!
  Steve and Brian both have excellent suggestions and I will try to toss in a couple as well, but ultimately you can't argue anyone out of denial.  When individuals have built their entire meaning for existence, on a group like the Assembly, if we try and tear it down in their presence it becomes life threatening to them.
  Close to the end of my tenure with the Valley Assm. Tom Maddox (who had already left) had a talk with me.  I had to talk to him re. a serious situation that happened while he was "in fellowship" that concerned wrong doing by another bro. from the Valley.  He raised the alarms bells re. this bro. and I was sent to discredit his charge, which later I discovered was true. (shockingly true! )
  He recently recounted to me how that he thought his discussion got no where, but I told him that his talk got further than he thought.  I still remember today (13 years ago) the basic things he shared, and though at the time I appeared resistant, his logic "crept in unawares."
  The statement of Christ in Jn. 10 still holds true, "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me."  How does this occur?  
 It certainly can't mean that every Christian will always and instantly be obedient to the will of God.  The "super spirituality", that I refered to in the previous post postulates a certain way of looking at "hearing God's voice" and this is what we really need to understand.
  To hear God's voice, from the Assembly viewpoint, is purely an emotional experience.  "Wait a second Mark!  I got it from my time in the word, and God showed me!"  As Pat said, how can you argue with their experience?  
  One of GG's most tantilizing deceptions was his invitation to discover a deeper intimacy with Christ; a sense of direct immediacy with the Lord.  The Bible teaches that we are united with Christ, indwelt by the Spirit, are kept by His power, and have His presence in our lives.  We accept this by faith, because He's "spoken to us" in His word, not because we had a sensation/special insight into the "deeper meaning" of a passage that morning.
  As Steve said, eventually we hope that Assembly folks will be honest with their own experiences and see that the "voice" they heard was not God at all.  I'm not saying that God can't, or doesn't, meet people in special ways, but what I am saying is it is not the normal Christian life, and we need to depend on the revealed truth of scripture, instead of this sense of immediate emotional connection.
   Emotions are very important and our sense of need in re. to them cannot be denied, but dependence on an emotional means of hearing God's voice is an unhealthy manner to address those needs.
                                                    God Bless,  Mark
   

[Kimberley Tobin]

So then....

If we pray and seek the Lord, then He will show us the error of GG's teaching, because we have the Bible and the Holy Spirit to guide us.  Why is there a need to disband an existing assembly that has repented?

Marcia

Would you start attending a church where the pastor was a newly saved untrained believer??  I think this answers the question best.

[Robb]

I am under the impression that continuing the Assembly as is is probably not a good idea, simply because of what's been stated before - there is too much of a tendancy to continue in the way we always have, despite who has left.  Call it human nature if you will - we struggle to overcome the flesh on a regular basis - but in my experience, people don't like change, even if change is good.  I've been out of the Assembly for 15 years and I know that God has matured me more, even in the last 5 years, than in all the time I was in the Assembly.  I really have struggled to change, to mature, to streach myself beyond my bounds.  I don't think I could have reached or been encouraged to reach my level of understanding and maturity if I was still in the Assembly.

[Arthur]

Would you start attending a church where the pastor was a newly saved untrained believer??  I think this answers the question best.

Good point, Kimberley.

And how about a believer that has been saved for 20 years but was in a cult all that time and only just about 4 months ago did he get out?  Think of it, a man who was brainwashed for 20 years, the cult twisting his thinking and perception on life.
Hmmm, better think it over.

How about going to a normal church where the pastor has been saved for a while and has never been in a cult but has always had his head on straight and his life shows his love for Jesus.

But come on, so what that there are plenty of good churches out there, we need to meet in a particular way right, and with the saints of course.  We need to be faithful to what God has shown us. Yeah, you know, the Heavenly Vision that GOD showed us while were in the...um...in the cult.  Oh wait, er...maybe we don't quite see it as clearly as we think we do.  Maybe we should rest and recover in a normal church.  Yeah, good idea.

But hey, if hanging out with delusional people who don't even know how deceived they are is your cup of tea, go ahead.  

BTW, the "crack" that I was referring to in the previous post is meeting with other assembly people.  You know, you hang out with the same ol' people who all think the same messed up way and then you think that way is normal.  You start to hunger for the meetings again.  Soon you'll be so far in again that no website, family member, or church counselor will ever be able to pull you out.
Like crack, a little bit will keep you addicted, but a whole lot--i.e. getting back together with the gang--will cause an overdose that'll destroy you.

[brian]

But hey, if hanging out with delusional people who don't even know how deceived they are is your cup of tea, go ahead.

i think this is overly harsh. if there is one thing that changed in me as my perceptions of reality were being seriously revised after leaving the assembly, its that i am much more reluctant to call someone else delusional. we usually feel confident that our current perception of reality is accurate, even through our perception of reality is constantly being revised. people who kept meeting in smaller groups after the assembly dissolved feel sure that they are not completely delusional, so when you make statements like this, you sound delusional to them, and you are effectively eliminating the possibility of meaningful communication. obviously we make statements like these out of anger and frustration, but if anyone told me i was completely delusional about any topic, and thus should believe what they are telling me rather than my own perceptions, i would not give them the time of day. we are all somewhat vulnerable right now, picking through the pieces of what we know to be true and what we consider suspect. lets take it easy on each other while we are comparing notes.

brian

[Joseph Reisinger]

brian, i'd have to agree with you on this one.  If there was anything that hindered me from hearing what people had to say re: the dangerous attributes of the assembly, it was the condecending, 'you are deluded' tone that it seemed every person took when talking about it.  If all that is important to someone is winning an argument, then fine, use all the putdowns and subtle digs you want... but if you really want to win people, and rescue them from something, a bit of understanding will go a long way.
joseph