So WHO Is Decieved???

[Sebastian Andrew]

...but in my experience, people don't like change, even if change is good.  I've been out of the Assembly for 15 years and I know that God has matured me more, even in the last 5 years, than in all the time I was in the Assembly.  I really have struggled to change, to mature, to streach myself beyond my bounds.  I don't think I could have reached or been encouraged to reach my level of understanding and maturity if I was still in the Assembly.

Greetings Robb:
We left about the same time. I think your observation is a good one. I've noticed the same in myself and others, too.
To a degree, at least, when some of us exit the assembly it's like we start again at the psycho/emotional level we entered the assembly with. The preceding statement may sound like mumbo-jumbo (maybe someone else cd. phrase it better than I), but to me it's akin to escaping a dysfunctional family so that you can learn life skills and gain maturity in order to live and function in the real world. Of course one has to live in the real world in the first place as a prerequisite to these things.
   I was visiting a friend who left the assembly and he was listening to a certain rock group from the old high-school days and had begun smoking cigs. and marijuana again, and by then he was about 30 years old. There are more subtle things than this example, and I hope that you or others might expand on this as time allows.

Sebastian Andrew

[Robb]

Sebastian,

I agree.  There are many things that I've had to relearn.

quote author=Sebastian Andrew link=board=6;threadid=347;start=0#10982 date=1057249532]

. . .it's like we start again at the psycho/emotional level we entered the assembly with.  . . . but to me it's akin to escaping a dysfunctional family so that you can learn life skills and gain maturity in order to live and function in the real world. Of course one has to live in the real world in the first place as a prerequisite to these things.
Sebastian Andrew

If there was anything that hindered me from hearing what people had to say re: the dangerous attributes of the assembly, it was the condecending, 'you are deluded' tone that it seemed every person took when talking about (the Assembly).  (B)ut if you really want to win people, and rescue them from something, a bit of understanding will go a long way.
joseph

I have found that this is true.  We were so shielded from things outside the assembly, and inundated with the notion that the Assembly was "the way" and everyone else was backslidden and not walking with God.  One thing I'm grateful for is that I've learned that God works in anyway he pleases and  who are we to tell him that He can only work through the Assembly system and why should we think we are so great that God would choose to ignore the work of other great men and women of Christ who had no clue of the Assembly. . .I could digress and let a lot of bitterness rule the post, but in the end, God works and is working through the church I'm now attending, and leading me in ways He sees fit.  And giving me a bit more understanding when it comes to dealing with people who don't see things as I do.  I've not given up on the fact that all people should turn to Christ and the basic message of Christianity, just the fact that in all of Christendom, there is not one way to worship, to pray, to study the Bible - Just one way to heaven.  Wasn't it John Wesley that said "In essentials, Unity, In non-essentials, Liberty, In all things, Chairty"?

[Arthur]

But hey, if hanging out with delusional people who don't even know how deceived they are is your cup of tea, go ahead.

i think this is overly harsh. if there is one thing that changed in me as my perceptions of reality were being seriously revised after leaving the assembly, its that i am much more reluctant to call someone else delusional. we usually feel confident that our current perception of reality is accurate, even through our perception of reality is constantly being revised.

Yeah, I say "Amen" to that. I totally agree that it seems like we're all continually changing our take on "reality" because none of us has the answer.  
And hey, I'm as messed in the head as the next guy--just saying that if they still want to do the assembly thing, that's being delusional--'cause it is.  Wouldn't you agree?
Ah, but you're saying I shouldn't be so harsh and blunt about it.  Ok, I c ur pt.
Do you think anyone who still believes that the assembly is God's gift to the world ever reads this site anyways?  

You know, you and me and others who have chimed in here are trying to deal with it and figure it out.  I think that's the difference.  The people I'm addressing are loosers who are hell-bent on refusing the truth (oh snap, got to watch that harshness, hehehe).  I don't like people like that.  I guess I'm set in my ways.

obviously we make statements like these out of anger and frustration,

Yep.

Overly harsh?  You're probably right, but I don't particulary feel like being nice to anyone who wants to have anything to do with that system or say it's good.  Guess that's my tweaked reality  
More likely it's that I need more sleep.  My patience/understanding to sleep ratio is inversely proportional.  But if you ever played WarCraft III on the Battle.net, you'd know why I stay up late.  That game is soo fun.  I don't ever play as the Undead race though-- that's too evil.  

but if anyone told me i was completely delusional about any topic, and thus should believe what they are telling me rather than my own perceptions, i would not give them the time of day.

But it felt good to write it, hehe.  (Oo, guess that's the flesh.  Wait, let me get back in the spirit for a moment, I don't want to miss out on my reward.  Can I get a witness?  Heheh )

we are all somewhat vulnerable right now, picking through the pieces of what we know to be true and what we consider suspect. lets take it easy on each other while we are comparing notes.

brian

Ok, thanks for the gentle admonishment.  I'll try to be a bit more understanding, maybe.
kk, ty

Arthur

[shaken]

AMEN. But to find that unity, to discerne what the essentials really are, and to find the courage to trust and love (in christ) again. Still sorting it all out.

[Mark C.]

Hi Shaken, Joseph, and Others !
  Shaken:  Thank you for your post and you are expressing what most of us felt after leaving the Assembly.  I hope you find answers for your questions here, and if I can help in any way please e-mail me (or post publicaly).
   Joseph: I don't know if you understand what we just went through here on the BB.  Most of us bent over backwards trying to be tolerant and understanding of what some believed were honest individuals who were confused about the facts of the Assembly.  We later learned we were "had" by 2 young wolf pups who were both dishonest and malicious in their communications.  If Arthur appears a bit cynical this could be the reason.
  You are correct that nobody warms up to being told that they have just wasted decades of their lives in deception, but the individuals that Arthur is talking about are not coming to this BB, nor would they ever listen to him.  
   Those who come here to even consider that they might have erred have taken the first step to recovery and are well on their way!  Those who just leave, and never try to evaluate their Assembly experiences, are the biggest losers for they will never learn from their mistakes.
   I am a big believer that there is much to be gained from both understanding why the Assembly was wrong, and also learning the contrasting principles of a life based on the Grace of God in Truth.  
  To such sincere seekers here I'm sure Arthur would say, "Grace, Mercy, and Peace"!
                                                   God Bless,  Mark

[Heide]

Hey Shaken,

Not to worry, you are not alone! I left the SLO Assembly three years ago under a cloud of shame. I was one to help Judy to leave. I am still sorting out things! Mostly now my feelings about people. It struck me yesterday that assembly like is still strong here in SLO. There is still a brothers house. There is still the thought that some of us aren't worthy to be invited to fellowships. Keith & Gay Walker came up here to visit and I didn't hear about it til it was over. That kind of treatment smarts even after all these years. I hear that some of my friends who have left the area came back to visit but no one calls. This hurts too!

What I am learning thru all of this though.. ( Yes there is a bright spot!) The assembly taught us

* Heide to be friendly to all in the assembly, no favorites. That isn't what life teaches us. Sometimes you have to pick and chose and stand up for yourself. I know this all sounds like grade school stuff. In my head I can justify it but not in my heart. In my heart it hurts to still be avoided.

Just know this Shaken, you aren't alone!

Heide

[M2]

Hi Everyone,

Earlier this year many LBs stepped down from leadership positions in existing assemblies.  It has been 6 months now. Isn't that long enough for them to have repented and changed, such that they can now start taking up leadership roles in Christian gatherings again?

MM

[Sebastian Andrew]

Hi Everyone,

Earlier this year many LBs stepped down from leadership positions in existing assemblies.  It has been 6 months now. Isn't that long enough for them to have repented and changed, such that they can now start taking up leadership roles in Christian gatherings again?

MM

No. Let them learn how to follow Christ instead of men. This is the beginning of the Christian life for them. They are practically novices, and need not entertain any ideas about themselves as leaders either now or in the future.

[Mark C.]

Hi Marcia!
  Me thinks you ask a question for which you already know the answer , but I will posit an answer regardless.
  Setting some kind of arbitrary time limit is not the answer, as it is not an issue of quantity but of quality here; that is, what is repentance in the circumstances mean?
  To repent means to "change one's mind" (Gr.- Metenoesam).  We need to define what these Assembly leaders need to repent of.  This brings us back to the old "baby and bath water" debate, and how someone who has been in a closed in group for decades can honestly evaluate their own experiences.
  There are some Assembly leaders who readily admit that GG had big problems, but insist the fruit of GG's ministry was both good and holy.  This they believe against the advice of the Bible which teaches that this can not happen.  So, this would have to be the first item for a former leader to change their mind about.
  Sincerity, or the declaration of a former leader that they "love the Lord", does not show a "changed mind" (repentance).  Neither does the lame false apology,if I have done anything to hurt you etc., qualify as a changed mind.
   True repentance does have an energetic desire to admit wrongdoing, a seeking of a separation from past erroneous teaching/practices, and earnest/specific apologies to those harmed by their past behavior; "a readiness to see justice done."(2:cor. 7:11).
    The cost of this kind of repentance will be a loss of position/power in any group and a humble acceptance of basic instruction from mature evangelical Bible teachers.  This instruction should be sought not with the idea that a former leader wants to quickly jump back into leading/teaching, but with the acceptance that maybe God doesn't ever want them to have a leadership role again.
  The axe must be laid to the root of the former leader's ambitions for a position of mastery.  God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
                                                 God Bless,  Mark

[M2]

Hi Marcia!
  Me thinks you ask a question for which you already know the answer , but I will posit an answer regardless.
 ...
  There are some Assembly leaders who readily admit that GG had big problems, but insist the fruit of GG's ministry was both good and holy.  This they believe against the advice of the Bible which teaches that this can not happen.  So, this would have to be the first item for a former leader to change their mind about.
 ...
  The axe must be laid to the root of the former leader's ambitions for a position of mastery.  God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
                                                 God Bless,  Mark

But many claim (LBs and non-LBs) that they did not agree with all that GG preached, so they were not actually deceived by him.
Also, they saw the 'pieces of the puzzle' but were not puzzled by them.

MM

[Mark C.]

Hi Marcia!
  Dealing with the strange twistings and turnings of the logic of these Assembly leaders is like trying to cross exam Bill Clinton.  We have to argue minutia and parse the meaning of phrases, and this enables them to obfuscate the real questions.
  These leaders were taught, installed, and promoted within the Assemblies by GG appointed "shepherds" and we're to believe that they retained a critical and objective view all along?!  This position is ludicrous and totally unbelievable, and almost is not worthy of an answer!
  While these leaders "saw clearly the erroneous teaching/practices of GG" they were actively resisting those who attempted to question the same teaching?!  Interesting that those who questioned GG teaching were called "divisive", while those leaders had already judged much of GG instruction as being off base!
  If these are the kind of answers you are getting from these guys it sounds like they are trying desperately to defend their positions as heap-big-leader.
                                 God Bless,  Mark

[jackhutchinson]

Marcia,

Since January I've heard people talk about how they never were impressed with GG, and how they always thought for themselves during their years in the assembly.  Whenever I hear this, I always have this nagging question:  If they were so unaffected by GG, then why didn't they PUBLICLY state their disagreement in front of the "saints"?  Sure, they may have written letters to GG addressing their concerns (remember how many "hate letters" GG says he read without responding?), sure they may have even told him privately face to face (or maybe in front of the workers who were sworn to secrecy).  But a miss is as good as a mile.  GG didn't change after being entreated countless times by mail and in personal (private) conversation.  Anyone who truly walked before God in sincerity would have seen GG's arrogance and unrepentant attitude and would have done something PUBLICLY or leave.  Many did leave, and some made their disagreements public - and those people were given the boot.

So, when people now brag about how all along they saw the puzzle pieces with such clarity, I'm not impressed unless I see what they did PUBLICLY with those pieces.  We all ignored puzzle pieces along the way.  I cannont overstress:

The extent of our failure is directly related to the number of puzzle pieces we had stuffed in the darkest corner of our conscience.

I've spoken to one former LB who I believe has truly repented.  There is such refreshing clarity when he describes why he resigned.  He has stated that he is embarrassed to admit that he was in the assembly, and even more so that he was a leader.  He does not try to impress people with the mantra, "Well, I never served George."  And you know what?  He hasn't expressed any desire to be a Christian leader either.  Someday, he might make a good one.  Only God knows.

One of GG's criteria for choosing leaders was the willingness to follow orders without regard to conscience.  Some mistakenly assume that because GG called them leaders in his ministry that somehow they still are called to be leaders somewhere else.  I think that only few will end up being true Christian leaders.

I agree with Mark's reference to 2 Cor 7.  Don't look for zeal in a person's claim that they were not deceived.  Look for zeal in admitting they were.

Jack

[M2]

But Jack (or anyone else),  we're all sinners.  And we don't always agree on everything that was preached anyway, even locally.  So we just didn't agree with GG. No reason to make a public statement.
Why should GG's sin, which we were not aware of, make a difference to our continuation, as long as we 'lay aside' all that was GG-ism?

MM

[Mark C.]

Marcia,
  There were many in Nazi Germany who did not agree with Hitler's views (teaching) and practices, but kept their disagreements to themselves as they feared personal retaliation.
  Others just fell into place and took the attitude, "well, it was good for me" as the economy in Germany picked up and some moved up in the political structure.
   Either of these two kinds of individuals above were cowards who helped advance the goals of a cruel despot.  
   Those of us who kept our objections to ourselves in the Assemblies should not pat ourselves on the back, but repent in dust and ashes.
    By trying to take a pass by claiming, "we're all just sinners" is a further attempt to escape responsibility for our involvement.  A generalized confession does no good for the soul.  
    When we are dishonest with ourselves we do great harm to our emotional health, but with our relationship with God it leads to spiritual harm.  How so?  Loss of inheritance or salvation?  No!  What then?-----  A life of futility and little fruit.  God wishes to employ us in His Vineyard and by closing our ears to His call in favor of protecting our false little Assembly world we frustrate grace in our lives.
   The Bible tells us all believers will receive praise from God(I: Cor. 4:5), so all true Christians will have some fruit, but some will have more than others.  Fruit is the result of the Holy Spirit's work in our hearts and The Spirit's success is not based on our own strength or works. ( It certainly is not advanced by GG's false teaching re. "reckoning faith".)
  As we can see in Galatians 3:1-, the miraculous work of the spirit was blocked by means of their "bewitchment" through a message that taught them to "attain their goal by human effort".  
  This is very important to understand as it means that the Galatians were not only deceived re. the true nature of the teaching they also were lying to themselves!  
      How were they lying to themselves? They departed from the power of the Holy Spirit and were left to an inner life dependant on their own effort.  There are only two results to the above scenario:
  1.) Hypocrisy.               2) Open failure.
    Paul states, "Have you suffered so much for nothing----- if it was really for nothing?"  In other words they were in danger of achieving nothing in their spiritual maturity and effectiveness.
   To depart from honesty in our lives with God is to depart from a productive and healthy Christian life.  God intends his Children to have a blessed and productive life-- to the praise of the glory of His grace!
                                                   God bless,  Mark

[jackhutchinson]

Marcia,

There's a difference between a disagreement about doctrines like pre, mid or post rapture, etc, and a disagreement about things like GG's blatant arrogance in his preaching, tapes and writings regarding other churches.  Pride is a very serious issue, especially for a leader (1Tim 3:6-7).  Any LB that could not see GG's arrogance was blinded and deceived.  Any that did see it was even more complicit.  This issue alone needed to be addressed PUBLICLY, but because the leaders feared GG's wrath and the inevitable loss of their respect and position, they did not rock the boat.  This long-standing cowardice alone should disqualify them from being leaders.  It sounds like they are attempting to trivialize the impact GG had on them in order to maintain their power over you.  That's not a sign of repentance.

A little leaven leavens the whole lump.  GG's stamp was on everything (nothing lasted without his approval).  Old habits and ways of thinking die hard.  Besides, why would anyone want to go to a church where the leaders have just recently been leading an abusive church?  The only thing these men (or any of us) have to contribute to God's people in the near future is a warning, "DON'T DO WHAT WE DID!"  I want to go to a church where there are leaders who have led healthy spiritual lives for awhile.  I'm not saying that any church is perfect, but I'm sure there are healthy churches in your area.

By the way, have you read any books on abusive churches?  Here's a list of ones I've read.  They will help you see how we have all been deceived in the assembly.

"Churches that Abuse" by Ronald Enroth
"Recovering from Churches that Abuse" by Ronald Enroth
"Twisted Scriptures" by Mary Alice Chrnalogar
"The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen
"Tired of Trying to Measure Up" by Jeff VanVonderen

Also, I suggest you read the accounts of the Midwest on the AssemblyReflections (formerly GeftakysAssembly) website.  They show clearly that distance did not negate the profoundly poisonous influence  GG had on leadership in ALL the assemblies.

Jack