So WHO Is Decieved???

[mithrandir]

I just want to add my two cents to the responses to Marcia's question.  I personally know of one gathering in Southern California where the leaders are saying that they were not as entangled in George's ministry as were the Fullerton leaders, and they use this as their justification for remaining in power.  I personally know the chief among these leaders.  I know what motivates him, because I've known him for a very long time.  Seeing him and others like him makes me certain that all that George built must come to a complete end.  Why? For two reasons.

1. All of our interactions with each other were tainted by what we all received of the unhealthy teaching and example of George and Betty.  For any gathering to continue would mean an eventual relapse into old abusive ways of relating to each other.

2.  The one blatant mark of every Geftakys "thing", whether it was an assembly or a ministry, was hierarchy.  We were all relegated to ranks, we all occupied rungs in the ladder of George's "thing."  And we were all trained to a greater or lesser degree to climb the ladder to the top.  All of our identity was wrapped up in the rank we achieved, and the position we were able to have over those under us.  And this in spite of the fact that the Lord said, "He who is greatest among you shall be your servant."  I believe that many of those who are still in a Geftakys group may be there because of pride - especially leaders who are unwilling to give up their positions.  For their position and rank has become their identity.  They would fall to pieces without it.  Therefore, it must all end.  They must be willing to become common men among common men and to see themselves as they really are.  They must drink the cup of humiliation to the bottom, though it burns in their hands.  As long as there remains intact anything of George's "ministry", these people can hide in it and avoid being humbled.  And there will still be the temptation  to lord themselves over others.

[BeckyW]

Mithrandir,
You've hit on what I believe is an important key...How we related to one another in the assemblies.  
I think the ministry we were under did much damage to our confidence in Christ's sufficiency for all of our lives.  He can and will forgive our sins and errors, even incredibly bad judgement, and waits to welcome the one who just admits he blew it.  
Even when we blew it by being pharisees and spiritual prigs, and/or by giving in to controlling leaders.  His grace is sufficient.
And we'll need His grace if we are ever to learn how to relate to one another now that we're out from under the hierchy system.
We're on level ground now, at the foot of the cross, all just regular saints. I think it says something about former and continuing leaders in whether they can accept that or not.
Becky

[BeckyW]

spell check...I meant "hierarchy"

[Heide]

Why would you want men, who have confessed to deceiving you, be put back into charge again?

I'm confused....

The man who confesses to being an alcoholic doesn't go work in a bar.....  

Heide

[Sebastian Andrew]

Greetings MM:
I hope you realize that most of us don't think that the leaders are beyond the pale of God's mercy-at least I don't.  

[M2]

...
1. All of our interactions with each other were tainted by what we all received of the unhealthy teaching and example of George and Betty.  For any gathering to continue would mean an eventual relapse into old abusive ways of relating to each other.

2.  The one blatant mark of every Geftakys "thing", whether it was an assembly or a ministry, was hierarchy.  We were all relegated to ranks, we all occupied rungs in the ladder of George's "thing."  And we were all trained to a greater or lesser degree to climb the ladder to the top.  All of our identity was wrapped up in the rank we achieved, and the position we were able to have over those under us.  And this in spite of the fact that the Lord said, "He who is greatest among you shall be your servant."  I believe that many of those who are still in a Geftakys group may be there because of pride - especially leaders who are unwilling to give up their positions.  For their position and rank has become their identity.  They would fall to pieces without it.  Therefore, it must all end.  They must be willing to become common men among common men and to see themselves as they really are.  They must drink the cup of humiliation to the bottom, though it burns in their hands.  As long as there remains intact anything of George's "ministry", these people can hide in it and avoid being humbled.  And there will still be the temptation  to lord themselves over others.

Thanks for your response M.

I have a different opinion specifically with the way I see the situation here, but may apply to other gatherings as well.
The LBs here were willing to give up their positions, but no one, not even our teenagers, wanted them to.  With all the change and 'bonding' finally happening it is very difficult to now see the condition of deception and that we were/are involved in a false religion. The only reason I remain 'out' is because I now see the assembly as being a false religion.  It is a very difficult position for me, but I must walk according to how my conscience dictates on this matter.

Geftakysism reigned in our midst, but big change has come about recently.  Many who are foggy about true spirituality will look at the appearance of things and decide to 'give it a second chance'.  Many say that they didn't really follow GG, so they weren't really deceived after all.

So all I can say is pray.
MM

[jackhutchinson]

Marcia,

I don't think that the leading brothers are beyond God's mercy either, as long as they truly repent, and we can know them by their works.

I'm curious.  Have you read any of the books or articles I've listed?  They will change your perspective on things.  They show how we were not a faithful remnant with heavenly vision, but (as you say) a false religion.  You will see in the books that there are many groups that are so similar to the assembly that it's creepy.

Jack

[Margaret]

Re. books--"Churches That Abuse" by Dr. Ronald Enroth (which devotes a chapter specifically to the assembly) is now out of print.  However, we may be able to get a few copies.  Email us if you want one.

[jackhutchinson]

I got all those books off of Amazon.com in great condition for "used" prices.

Jack

[Sebastian Andrew]

Greetings MM:
I wd. be glad to loan you by mail my copies of Enroth's  books. You can keep them as long as you like, as I have read them several times over the years. Also, I think it's Kregel Pub's in Grand Rapids, MI that has a used bookstore with a huge inventory.

[M2]

In the past, when anyone spoke openly of assembly errors/problems it was labelled as 'divisiveness' or 'speaking evil' of our brethren.

What is the Biblical teaching on divisiveness?

Marcia

I extracted this from B.Tr0ckman's article:

Fear, Pride and Virtue:
The Weapons That Protect The Assembly

...
The weapons of fear, darkness and virtue also create another situation.  Christine had been having problems for years with certain teaching and behavior.  She had several run-ins with the leaders, where she asked tough questions and got evasive answers.  Because of the many people like John, who left earlier, she is determined that she will not  leave like a coward.  "These other people all left because they were in sin, and weren't walking with The Lord.  Well, not so with me.  I am going to leave in a scriptural way." Christine is more proud, while John was more ashamed and fearful.

Christine's idea of a "scriptural" way means that she will explain herself to the leaders first.  They may listen, but first they will get her to give her word to keep everything confidential. "We don't want you to stumble the weaker ones, sister."  This confirms what Christine suspected, she is one of the "strong ones." Because Christine is also a virtuous woman of her word, she keeps her very valid reasons for leaving a secret from everyone else.  She writes long papers, and has long discussions with the leaders about the problems she has correctly observed.  The leaders, in turn, draw out the separation talks for a month or two.  Since Christine has agreed to silence,  the leaders are free to plant seeds, share little bits of negative information, preaching messages about the sin of forsaking the gathering and other such things.  Nothing is said out loud in a frank manner, but after a few weeks of hints and nudges, all the saints know exactly who the message on " being offended and falling away" is directed towards.  Christine has fallen away.  Christine may have more courage than the leaders realized, and may share some of her reasons with people.  Perhaps she will hear a rumor about herself and correct it.  This poses no real problem for The Assembly, because they will simply say she is being divisive.  The members' sense of virtue will lead them to shun her, because they have been taught to do this with people who are "divisive," and Christine's own sense of virtue will cause her to remain silent.  "You gave your word, Christine."

In Christine's case, The Assembly has been able to paint her as a divisive sinner, and she is unable to do anything about it, because of her strong sense of virtue.  She may have written long, scathing letters to the leadership, but the saints will never know, and the web of fear and darkness is only strengthened.  Her own sense of virtue only intensifies the weapons of darkness, because of it, she restrains herself from exposing them.  "God will judge them," she says. While God certainly will judge each and every  person,  her virtue has made it impossible for her to do her part and speak up.  She is not able to resist the Devil, or to stand against evil, because she believes it to be a violation of her virtue. Perhaps she also senses a little shame for not being as brave as she thought she was.  She tries to put the past behind her, and goes away.  Christine may be OK in the future, she was responsible to give a scriptural reason for her departure, but she failed in her other responsibility, which is to warn others.  

If a little leaven leavens the whole lump, don't we have a responsibility to warn others about the leaven?

...

[vernecarty]

I just want to add my two cents to the responses to Marcia's question.  I personally know of one gathering in Southern California where the leaders are saying that they were not as entangled in George's ministry as were the Fullerton leaders, and they use this as their justification for remaining in power.  I personally know the chief among these leaders.  I know what motivates him, because I've known him for a very long time.  Seeing him and others like him makes me certain that all that George built must come to a complete end.  Why? For two reasons.

1. All of our interactions with each other were tainted by what we all received of the unhealthy teaching and example of George and Betty.  For any gathering to continue would mean an eventual relapse into old abusive ways of relating to each other.

2.  The one blatant mark of every Geftakys "thing", whether it was an assembly or a ministry, was hierarchy.  We were all relegated to ranks, we all occupied rungs in the ladder of George's "thing."  And we were all trained to a greater or lesser degree to climb the ladder to the top.  All of our identity was wrapped up in the rank we achieved, and the position we were able to have over those under us.  And this in spite of the fact that the Lord said, "He who is greatest among you shall be your servant."  I believe that many of those who are still in a Geftakys group may be there because of pride - especially leaders who are unwilling to give up their positions.  For their position and rank has become their identity.  They would fall to pieces without it.  Therefore, it must all end.  They must be willing to become common men among common men and to see themselves as they really are.  They must drink the cup of humiliation to the bottom, though it burns in their hands.  As long as there remains intact anything of George's "ministry", these people can hide in it and avoid being humbled.  And there will still be the temptation  to lord themselves over others.

...To say nothing of the all-important question of whose aegis all that George built was constructed under...I stand amazed at those clinging to a manifestly rejected work of unspeakable evil...
Verne

[James]

Is George Geftakys saved and if so will he be held to account before the judgement seat of Christ as per 2Cor 5:10?

[Joe Sperling]

James----

I believe George is saved. I was reading 1 John and it says that no one teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of God or that he is come in the flesh unless led by the Spirit of God.

I think George was led astray long ago though, and allowed himself to be used to spread both heresy and much bondage. He will stand before the Judgement seat of Christ and answer for the things done in the body just like everyone else. I think he needs to continue to be sharply rebuked until he repents, but I think we need to pray for him to come to that place. The Lord is far more willing to forgive and bring to repentance, than to judge. "For God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."(2 Peter).

--Joe

[Uh Oh]

I'm not sure if George is saved or not...What I do know is that he is obnoxious, irritating, and raised two complete losers for sons.