So WHO Is Decieved???

[Arthur]

GG always said that he got saved when, as a young marine, he was walking down the road one night in Goleta and heard singing coming from a church.  It so touched his heart that he knelt down at the side of the road and received the Lord.

Don't know if there was any repentance involved.  But has anyone ever seen GG repent for anything since then either?  That is an issue that makes his salvation questionable.

I don't remember that he said he was a young marine.  I do distinctly remember hearing him say that he was 15.  He went to a church meeting in SB, heard the good news, then as he was walking in an orchard on the way home it was like a light dawned on him.  He felt a rush of joy in knowing, "I'm saved!".  It was so wondrous it was like the angels were singing as he ran through the orchard that night saying, "I'm saved!"

At least, that is what he shared at a seminar about 5 or 6 years ago and again at a HB gospel tent meeting four years ago.  Maybe he's changed his story over the years 'cause he made it up in the first place.  I dunno.

[Joe Sperling]

MM---

What Margaret says is held by many reputable teachers--
John Owen for one(an old Puritan scholar who wrote volumes of very godly works). Owen says that these people mentioned were in the midst of the church, benefited from it and it's blessings, heard the Word, but were never truly regenerated in heart. "He maketh his rain to fall on the just (the saved) and the unjust(the unsaved)". Rain falling on the just WILL bring forth fruit, on the unjust briars and weeds(see the reference to the rain in Heb. 6:4-8). I n v. 9 it says "But we are persuaded better things of YOU brethren"(referring to saved people, not apostates as he has just mentioned). of course, as in all things that are unsure, there are others who teach these are believers who can be lost, etc.---but I go with what Owen and many others like him teach.

As for George, I had said I think he was saved because of what he taught. His main teaching was that you needed to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and there was no salvation in any other name but Jesus. Many of his heretical teachings dealt with issues regarding the life of the church and corporate testimony, and with "works based righteousness" to grow in Christ after salvation. I never heard him teach that you are "saved" by your works.
However, I did not know George personally, did not observe him in life for any extended period of time, so he could very well be the opposite of what I thought.

I know it is possible for a teacher to preach the Gospel and be a total charlatan--see Robert Tilton, Peter Popov, etc.
as examples of people who preach receiving Christ, etc. but are obviously in it all for the money. Maybe, I just don't want to believe I was following an unsaved teacher for allt he time in the Assembly---it could boil down to a matter of pride. Only God knows George's heart for sure though.

--Joe

[M2]

Thanks Joe, your explanation really helps.

Re. apostates - what is an apostate? I always believed that an apostate is one who has fallen away from the faith.

Arthur. The version of GG's salvation story I remember is similar to yours and Margaret's together.  GG was 16 and he left a Baptist meeting and knelt down beside the road and prayed, on his way home, after refusing to kneel down and pray at the church with the minister.

MM

[Arthur]

Brent and Everyone,

Do you think that these verses apply to GG's condition?

HEB 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
HEB 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
HEB 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.
HEB 6:7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
HEB 6:8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.


Marcia

You have to take this passage in context of the whole book of Hebrews.  Remember who this book is written to--the Hebrews.
Before reading Heb 6, you have to read Heb 3 and 4 to understand this passage.

Take a look at Heb 4:2 and you'll see who he is talking about, i.e. the children of Israel in times past.  

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Notice, "not being mixed with faith". They heard the word, they tasted the goodness of God, etc. but did not believe.

Don't let the words, "enlightened", "tasted of the heavenly gift", " made partakers of the Holy Ghost", "tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come" throw you for a loop.  

Remember, in I Cor 10:1-5 we read 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness."

The children of Israel had all of those things, but since they did not believe, they fell away and perished.

Verses 7 and 8 of Heb 6 contain an illustration that is very familiar to the Jews.  Reference Isa 5:1-7

What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? 5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: 6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

Again, the point is that God did everything he could for Israel and yet they hardened their hearts and would not believe, and for this, God cursed them.

In this case in Heb 6, he is referring to anyone who would go back to the basic religious practices and beliefs of Judaism listed in verses 1 and 2.  

In addition to taking this passage in context of the whole book, you also need to take it in the context of the main message of the entire Bible, which is the good news of Jesus Christ.  Salvation by grace through faith.

The key is faith in Jesus.  If you acknowledge that you're a sinner and that you need Jesus and he's the one--the savior, he died for our sins--will we fall away?  If we refuse to believe in him, refuse the gift of God--even after hearing the good news, then yeah, we will be like the Israelites who heard the word but did not believe and did not repent.
But we do say that we need Jesus.   We're not saying that we can attain righteousness by our own works.  We need him and seek his help and salvation.

Look at what the next verse in Heb 6 reads, after the passage you quoted. Heb 6:9,

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

[James]

Conclusion: George Geftakys is not saved.

Is the fruit of his labour saved?

[Arthur]

Conclusion: George Geftakys is not saved.

Is the fruit of his labour saved?

By "fruit of his labour" are you referring to us--people who were in the assembly, or to whatever work it was that he did e.g. preaching, missionary trips, etc.?

[James]

Arthur,

Any of his work, ministry, emmissariee, etc.

[James]

Those who responded to his ministry, his books, his counsel, his visits. Are they saved?

[M2]

Those who responded to his ministry, his books, his counsel, his visits. Are they saved?

I was saved by the gospel that was preached to me from the Word of God by my co-worker(NOT GG).

Marcia

[Arthur]

Those who responded to his ministry, his books, his counsel, his visits. Are they saved?

Re: his works -   I doubt Testimony to Jesus will be up there in heaven.  In other words, obviously whatever he did out of motivation to gain power, money, etc. were bad deeds.  And I think that about sums up his life.  Was there ever a time that he helped somebody out of compassion?

Re: people in the assembly - It depends on the individual. Some probably never were saved.  Some are saved, but we wandered away from the fold into the clutches of this wolf for a time.  But God has rescued us!  Thank you Lord.


To this day, I've heard there are people still listening to George preach.  

There are others that were part of assemblies that recently disbanded who think that the assembly was basically good, just that George had some problems.  

And there are others who realize that the assembly was a cult, that we were deceived, and that we need to forsake and reject the assembly, recover from our experiences and be with normal believers.  

[James]

Did anything good come from the assemblies and our involvement in it? Is there anything we can say, "that is from the Lord?" Was the last 10, 20, 30 years (wherever one fits in) a complete waste? Were the values and the standards we taught our children in vain?

[themissus]

Did anything good come from the assemblies and our involvement in it? Is there anything we can say, "that is from the Lord?" Was the last 10, 20, 30 years (wherever one fits in) a complete waste? Were the values and the standards we taught our children in vain?

Hi James

Personally speaking, a lot of good things came from my involvement with the Assembly, just as a lot of bad things did as well.  

For a long time I only saw the bad and I was miserable as I processed it.  Then, a dear sister-friend, who loved me through my Assembly days (no small task) gently prodded me to see the good that came of it!  

I did grow in my faith, I made wonderful friends who remain to this day, my prayer life flourished... these are just a few examples.  

I also became extremely judgemental, elitist regarding other Christians, gossippy.... etc. etc.  I had a LOT of forgiveness that I had to ask for!

It's most likely different for everyone, and sometimes the bad seems to outweigh the good.  

As for the "values and standards" that children were taught, parents probably need to pray for grace - which isn't new because we need His grace in any situation!  I'm sure there was a mix of Assembly teachings and bible teachings, but it can't be all bad.  No parent gets it all right either!  But, I must qualify this by telling you I don't have children, so I may be speaking out of turn.  

Anyhow, I hope ex-assemblyites everywhere get to the place where they've processed what's happened, see the good, as well as the bad, and can be at peace with it.  It's a painful process, but necessary - and we don't have to do it alone!  Yay Jesus!

That's one perspective anyway....

[Arthur]

Did anything good come from the assemblies and our involvement in it? Is there anything we can say, "that is from the Lord?" Was the last 10, 20, 30 years (wherever one fits in) a complete waste? Were the values and the standards we taught our children in vain?

James,  I have been wondering that very same thing ever since I left.

When I first got out, I thought I had gained soooo much.  But the more I'm out, the more it seems to be the opposite is true--that I've lost.

We read the Bible a lot.  But we were taught a twisted slant that needs to be corrected now.

We had a disciplined lifestyle.  But with that we had ingrained in us a legalistic mindset of fear and bondage that needs to be cleared and healed.

We preached the gospel to countless thousands and may have even got some to stay in fellowship.  But it was a fellowship that was detrimental to their and our spiritual health.  Something from which we must recover now.


What we did learn was to recognize and watch out for false teachers.  But we have also learned to be suspicious and not trust anyone anymore for fear they may hurt us.


You tell me, did we gain anything?  Lord knows.

Arthur

[M2]

Did anything good come from the assemblies and our involvement in it? Is there anything we can say, "that is from the Lord?" Was the last 10, 20, 30 years (wherever one fits in) a complete waste? Were the values and the standards we taught our children in vain?

My attitude at this point is why bother?  If you agree that it was a cult then leave it behind and start afresh, with a humble attitude of inquiry.  Some ex-assembly-ites actually think that they have something valuable to contribute to other gatherings and so they have been dispersed to do so. this is a very dangerous position because they could infect other gatherings with their false teachings and attitudes.

Anyway, I know that I'm saved. And I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able...

Marcia

[James]

Are we saying that when we gathered to worship the Lord that it wasn't legitimate?