So WHO Is Decieved???

[Luke Robinson]

But it is a mistake and over-simplification to label them as "evil" from eternity unto eternity.  They BECAME corrupted over a period of time, as Satan preyed upon their weaknesses.  Any of us who thinks that our personal spirituality is above such a fate is dangerously wrong!  It is only the grace of God that keeps our human frailty from opening the door to darkness.  

it is also a mistake and over-simplification to propose that the george, his sons, and all of those corrupted by them are simply helpless victims of satanic attack. did they have less grace than we do? no. we all make decisions, with our wills, that determine what we become. if you have been doing your homework, you know that george was corrupt long before he started the assemblies, and that the image of righteousness and godliness that george projected was an absolute fraud the entire time. the difference between george and me is what i chose to become. the same is true for you, al, and for all of us. unless you think the grace of God shows favoritism.

Dear Brian,

Mr. Hartman is not implying this at all.  He is not saying that the Geftakys family were helpless victims of Satan.  But faced with temptation, George and David gave in, instead of turning away.  To be tempted is not a sin, but to give in to temptation is.  The Devil was very much involved in this.  To say he wasn't would not be right.  

Also, how do you know that George was corrupted?  Yes, I've read all the rumors flying around.  Think about it.  George sins and we start digging around in his past looking for the beginning of his corruption.  The man was tempted and gave in.  That's all their is to it.  And it happens to each and every one of us.

Not to mention his overbearing attitude towards the flock and the poor conducting of his family.  

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

[retread]

...
The man was tempted and gave in.  That's all their is to it.  And it happens to each and every one of us.
...

However, I would hope that each an every one of us would not have the underlying being of our life be to follow after a system of corruption.  We fall down, we get up and through the grace of God we move forward.  I may be wrong, but it is difficult for me to believe that GG ever attempted to go before God to deal with his sins against those who followed him.  To me, the appearance is that he just continued on day after day using his corrupted system to propagate his corrupted beliefs and exalt himself.

[Sebastian Andrew]

Greetings Brian, LR, retread, eveyone:

I am with you Brian. I want to be merciful, but it is evil to do what the Geftakys family has done and I am not ashamed or afraid to use this word as I think it is an accurate description. It is very possible for us to choose evil and we are ultimately responsible as far as I can see. The Scriptures tell us that Satan entered into Judas I. They also tell us that it wd. have been better if he had never been born ( no analogy intended w-Geftakys here). It seems to me that Judas was held responsible, and not Satan in the long run.
As far as artifacts and religious objects go I wd. like to give one word of caution:
If an artifact, statue, etc. was used in  pagan religious/magic ceremonies it may  exert a disrupting or polluting influence on a household- i.e. the atmosphere and the people in it. There are manifold examples of this in Catholic And Protestant literature and in the writings of missionaries who brought home interesting artifacts from the mission field. The late Kurt Koch has a lot about this in his books(Kregel Publications), and an Indian friend of mine has some personal experience in this matter. All I am saying is be careful.

[Mark C.]

Dear Friends
  It is very difficult to take GG and the whole Assembly experience apart and examine what GG was actually thinking at what time and place.  Al had certain interactions with GG and he is trying to remember how GG appeared to him at the time.
  It would have been interesting had GG been involved in a reality show where we could have seen all his private activities, and even better yet have him tell us what he was thinking at the time.  There will be a reality show for him, and all of us one day.
  Luke raised the issue that the word "evil" is bandied about much too frequently, on this BB, when really it is more often a personality conflict issue.
   It seems to me, when Christ spoke of evil (this would make an interesting study and I'm not positive I'm correct) He primarily leveled his accusations at the religous leader crowd.  Paul spoke of "false Apostles" whom he called, "Ministers of Satan" , etc.  
  While with the poor unpretentious sinner crowd Jesus seemed to delight in, sharing the Good news of mercy, and these drew near and gladly heard Him.
   This brings me to the conclusion that the word "evil" primarily has to do with the kind of sin that comes from a seared conscience.  The conscience doesn't start this way, it is a process of ignoring the awareness that we are doing wrong; we are in denial! (in other words we're all sinners, that's not the question, but are we honest about it, especially if we claim to be God's servant)
  So Al is right, it is a process, but in a religious leader with no accountability, such a process hastens to a very dangerous point quickly!  In order to insulate himself from facing these issues GG developed a system, an evil system, that belittled, shamed, dominated, etc. those whom he convinced to follow him.
   This evil system rewarded those who were loyal and punished those who questioned.  There were those in the Assembly who climbed the ladder by following the same system of conscience searing GG demonstrated; some more so, and others less so, but it was only one system.  Yes, you could just attend and keep your concerns to yourself, and you would be left alone.  But, dare to challenge the system and you would be labelled and sent out .
   No, it's more than just a personality conflict and I think it is probably one of the greatest evils on earth to be a false Apostle of Christ.  To abuse God's little ones earns the reward that is worse than having a millstone hung around one's neck and to be cast into the sea!
     Much more could be said, but for me it's off to bed.
                              God bless,  Mark

[brian]

He is not saying that the Geftakys family were helpless victims of Satan.  But faced with temptation, George and David gave in, instead of turning away.

here is the essence of what al said: X happened to george and his sons. X could happen to any of us. this implys that X is not quite so bad as we are making it out to be, and we should perhaps tone it down. what i am saying is that X did not just happen to them, passively, and that X will NEVER just happen to somebody. they made specific, conscious choices, over and over again, for decades. george chose to have sex with his secretaries before he started the assembly, and he chose again to engage in the same behavior after he started the assemblies. he chose, consciously and repeatedly, to commit terrible crimes against people who trusted him. he chose to hold his daughter-in-law in a position of really anguished suffering for many long years, until someone outside the family finally took some steps to set her free, and ultimately to expose him. he chose to give those 'glorious' seminars the entire time he was engaging in this sickening behavior. he knowingly and gladly took millions of dollars from those who believed he was righteous and godly, when HE knew the entire time he was the farthest thing from it. and thats just george, and that is not all the sins he chose to commit. with someone who is capable of committing these kinds of sins, what you eventually find out about is always the tip of the iceburg. am i making my point yet? do i need to go on to david, and the really bad stuff? or the leading brothers who knew the really bad stuff and knowingly chose to cover it up? these are choices these men cannot take back. they can repent (george and his sons have NOT done so) but the results of their choices to commit these horrid sins are etched into the lives of those they inflicted themselves on like deep acid burns. that is what makes their willful sins so horrid. they knowingly trampled on the souls of those who trusted them deeply, then punished those trusting souls if they complained about it. its not that a particular sin came knocking at their door, and in a weak moment they let it slip in. they actively sought out this lifestyle - they FOUGHT for the opportunity to commit gross sin. THATS what i mean by corrupted. this is VERY different from what you and i face every day. we still have a conscience.

George sins and we start digging around in his past looking for the beginning of his corruption.  The man was tempted and gave in.  That's all their is to it.  And it happens to each and every one of us.

you can dig around in my past all you like. you won't find anything remotely close to the horrors some of these men committed. i have never even been tempted to do the sick and cruel things they did. those things simply make my blood run cold.  a person has to be pretty corrupted to even want that lifestyle, then even more corrupted to work actively to set it up and carry it out.

do you really think it is just a massive coincidence that so many people who left the assembly started working actively to put a stop to it?

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Brian,
I totally agree with you.  Those that sinned made a concious decision to commit sin.  This is a point that needn't be argued.  But, wow, the way you described George, one might think he was the Head of the Third Reich!  

The thing is, in our natural selves, we are capable of all these things and worse.  In our brutish, sinful nature, we can produce henious acts such as the ones displayed here.
No doubt about it.  That is why we need Christ more than ever.

I agree that because George does not acknowledge his sin, neither does he repent, he is in very dangerous water.  No doubt there will be great judgment in that day, unless he turns from his evil ways.

Remember, in our flesh and sinful nature, we are all evil.  But Christ has saved us from that.  And George must wake up before he falls deeper into sin.  

Also, one last thing, Mr. Tucker.  Your last paragraph sounds like that famous line in the good, old book.

"God, I thank you that I am not like other men."
 
A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

[al Hartman]

     Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour:  
     Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
     But the God of all grace, who has called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that you have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.
     To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.  Amen.
                                                            I Peter 5:8-11


     In my last post, i did not attempt to establish a doctrinal position.  My goal was to express a point of view and to share the personal experiences and observations that led me to that viewpoint.
     What i expressed in that post may be wrong.  i may have been duped during my entire association with the Geftakys family.  They may have all been living in blatant sin the entire time, and i blinded to it all.  It doesn't matter  what you think of me or my opinions.
     Sometimes the remarks on this BB seem like a political cartoon in which oversized linebackers butt helmet-to-helmet, one being labeled pro- and the other against- whatever the issue of the moment happens to be.
     i am not omniscient.  i don't want or need to win you over to my camp.  i am not going to debate the points of criticism of my words.  i am going to share some heartfelt thoughts and ask you to weigh them prayerfully before jumping to your next conclusion:

     i am not pro-George or anti-George.
     i am not pro-assembly nor anti-assembly.
     i AM pro-Jesus Christ our Lord.  If God be for us, who can be against us?  And if we are for God, we don't need to be against anyone or anything, in terms of identifying ourselves.  We simply stand with our Lord, for who and what he loves and against who and what he hates.  Are you getting this?-- Our identity is CHRISTIANS...  NOT Sin-Haters.  Hating sin is incidental to loving Christ!  No matter how important it ever is to expose sin and topple evil, it must NEVER stand alone-- it must ALWAYS be a product of our love for God!

     Do you want to believe that GG & his clan were predestined to be evildoers from before the foundations of the world?  Go for it...
     But i will ask you to consider again I Peter 5:8, which says that the devil is seeking whom he MAY devour.  Several translations verify that the word is MAY (NOT "can").
     CAN implies the ABILITY to do something, while MAY implies that PERMISSION is required.
     Satan does not have the ability to devour God's people at his discretion, but must seek permission.  Read the book of Job.
     The big difference between Job and us is that Job was looking forward toward, and trusting in, a redemption yet to be accomplished.  But Christ has come, and has redeemed us.  He has walked among us, and we have seen him and beheld his glory.  Christ is in us, and we abide in him.  So now when Satan seeks God's permission to afflict us, he asks it of US.
     The temptations with which we are tempted are common in nature, but it comes to each of us to decide whether we will claim our place in Christ and refuse the temptation with him, or whether we will fail to reckon the death of our old nature, instead responding with its old, dead feelings, and be led into sin.

     It is the NATURE of sin that is common to us all, its appeal to the flesh;  but NOT its specific trappings.  There is no convenient one-size-fits-all human psyche.  So, no matter how cleverly you may think you've worked out your own perceptions of good and evil, it will ill-equip you to assess what may tempt another.  Hence dictums about what paraphernalia it is or is not safe to surround oneself with are of no value to the masses.
     So we must resist Satan steadfastly IN THE FAITH, not by behavioral formulas.  The actions that define us as Christians must be born of our close walk with Jesus Christ, not of conclusions we have drawn concerning what is good and what is bad.  To be sure, there is evil in the world, and there is good, but we must constantly seek him for the revelation of them, and not look for convenient patterns with which we may become familiar, and thus complacent.

God bless us all, and grant us wisdom in humility,
al Hartman

[brian]

sorry if i come across too harshly sometimes. just imagine me saying everything i say here in a warm, friendly, confident, compassionate way.  

The thing is, in our natural selves, we are capable of all these things and worse.  In our brutish, sinful nature, we can produce henious acts such as the ones displayed here.

you know, to be totally honest, in my heart-of-hearts, i really don't think i am capable of doing these things. i know its not politically correct to say that, but i really don't think i am.

is it possible to tell if one sin is worse than another? *gasp* honestly, i don't think we need to doubt our consciences all THAT much. i think we are capable of rough estimates. for instance, we could look at the number of lives hurt by each sin, and use the tally as a rough estimate of how destructive the sin was. a personal, private sin would only directly hurt the person committing it, while the sins george and his sons committed affected hundreds of lives deeply. i think that pretending the two are even roughly equivalent is living in denial, and rather dangerous, as it trivializes what these men have actually done and makes it easier to let them off the hook.

oh, and i think its safe to say i am anti-george    i am also anti-rabid-dogs, for the record.

[editor]

Hi guys

Even though I'm retired, I can still post on the BB...right?

I am also anti-George.  Did you know that there is a character in the Bible called Anti-Christ?  Actually, there are several.  I am anti--antichrist as well.

George is a false teacher, a false brother, an immoral man, and a criminal!  I am definitely anti-george.

Also, I challenge all the self/flesh-theorists out there to tell me where it says in the Bible that we are all capable of doing what George has done.  Certainly we all have the potential to do that and more, but I don't.  When given the opportunity to steal, I haven't done so, etc.

Am I better than other men?  No, I just haven't given myself over to a depraved mind.  I haven't willfully, obstinately rebelled against God.  Because I am better?  No, because no temptation has overtaken me except that which is common to man, including George.  God always gives the way of escape.  

George chose his own way of escape, which the Bible calls wickedness.  Jesus is going to seperate sheep and goats.  He isn't going to say to the sheep, "You guys are every bit as evil as the goats."  On the contrary, he sees a difference.

Please, re-think all this "self is evil" stuff.  

Recommended reading,  "The True Believer," by Eric Hoffer.

Don't Read It Unless You Feel Very Stable In Your Faith

Brent

[al Hartman]

All,

     Three have faithfully posted since my last post, and said EXACTLY what i had thought i was saying.  Obviously, they are saying it better than i.

     i am Not opined that the self/flesh is evil... only that no GOOD thing dwells in it, and that it is capable of adopting evil.
     i am NOT in fellowship with GG or any of his ilk.
     i am NOT pro-assembly.
     i do NOT believe that the Lord will tell his sheep that they are evil.

     But i DO believe that to say that there is a difference between what depth of depravity and sin we are CAPABLE of and what we have the POTENTIAL to commit is to play a very dangerous game of semantics.

     And i DO believe that if everyone on earth but YOU had been born in, and lived in, complete holy righteousness, and YOU yourself had only committed one "tiny" sin, it would have been enough to bring the Son of God down from heaven to die for your salvation.  (What Christ has done for all, he has done for EACH, for YOU and for me, as individuals!)

     And i DO believe that if you are not capable of sinning as greatly as others have (and do), it is only because God granted you the GRACE to be saved from such a fate by turning away from sin THROUGH FAITH in him, and that said faith is NOT OF YOURSELF, but is THE GIFT OF GOD,    NOT OF (your) WORKS of (self) righteousness, lest you (or any of us) should boast.

     Perhaps you have pegged old al as a senile, sin-infested crackpot, and shoved him into a pigeonhole and given him a label.  And because you already have your mind made up about what he stands for and what he's going to say, you don't have to actually read, and evaluate, and pray about his "rantings."  (Joe Sperling, please expand upon what i'm talking about here).

     i repeat:  it makes no difference what you think of me or my opinions.  But, PLEASE, consider the possibility that you may have submitted to pride (which can lead to arrogance) and be placing yourself, AND THOSE WHO LOOK TO YOU FOR GUIDANCE AND EXAMPLE at grave risk!!!!!

     Say what you will about me...  i love you all and care deeply where you stand with the Lord...

because of him,
al Hartman

P.S.--  i also am anti rabid dog, and tend to be somewhat intolerant of rabid fanatics, too!  (General statement, not directed toward anyone in particular-- if you think otherwise, please take it up with Highest Authority).

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Everyone,

I guess everything is now coming out in the wash.  I see now why you can say those things.  Because you would never do such a sin.  Wow.  And all this time I was confused.  I thought we were all sinners saved by grace.  But please regard what I said before.  Brent, you have been quick to call people a lot of things and point out who is arrogant and who is not.

Luke 18:10-11 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,"God, I thank thee , that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican."(or as George Geftakys)

Here's a few verses about where the Bible uses the word "evil":

Matthew 7:11 If you being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

So Jesus calls the multitude evil.  

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Paul says that no matter how hard he tries, he can't stop doing evil.  Only through Christ can he throw off the evil nature.
 
Then he says in verse 24: Oh wretched man that I am!  who shall deliver me from the the body of this death?

Hebrews 10:22  Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of our faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Paul says that we need to be saved from the evilness of our own conscience.

James 3:8 But the tongue can no mane tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.  

Who has an evil tongue?  We all do!  Unless we give God full control of it.

Just a few scriptures to advise against the over-usage of the word evil.  

Unfortunately, we can't all be good Christians with the only repulsive sinners being the Geftakys family.  One last verse.  

I Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson
 

[Luke Robinson]

If we were uncapable of sin, no matter how innocent or terrible it was, then the blood of Christ was not needed and we could all get to heaven by going to church and giving to charity.

[Luke Robinson]

you know, to be totally honest, in my heart-of-hearts, i really don't think i am capable of doing these things. i know its not politically correct to say that, but i really don't think i am.

Actually, Mr. Tucker, what you said is politically correct, not Biblically correct.  

[editor]

Dear Luke

Your last post is so peppered with false Assembly theology that I really don't have the energy to  point out some of the major points.  However, the way you ended it is somewhat of a key.

I Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall.


At one time, I was sure that I standeth.  I understood Romans 6,7,8, Galatians 2:20, and many other verses.  I knew that God hated the self-life, and that He was only interested in Christ's life.

I fell.  I had no power in my Christian life, but I knew all kinds of things.

When I say, "All you self/flesh theorists need to check your premises,"  I am saying, "Him who think he standeth, take heed lest he fall."

Luke, this is for you.

Before Jesus saved me, I was a slave to sin.  Now, I am a new creation.  I don't practice the things I used to do before I got saved.  I don't fornicate, use drugs, drink to excess, steal, and lots of other stuff.  Why?  Because I am a new creation in Christ.  Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.  I don't want to do those things, for which I was ashamed.

Do I still sin?  Of course!  But the battle is very different now.  I have a testimony now, whereas before, I was in darkness and sin.

Now let's look at George.  He committs adultery, steals, teaches false doctrine, lies, has pride and arrogance, puts people out of the church who don't agree with him, and claims to have no sin, even when faced with multiple witnesses.

He names the name of Christ, but he EMBRACES ANd PRACTICES INIQUITY!!!  Is someone going to tell me that we are all just like George?  If a Christian is no better than a false teacher, than why does the Bible warn us about false teachers, and their inpending judgment?

Luke, there is a huge difference between me and George.  Yes, we are both sinners,  but am not living a lie.  I won't be judged for the things George has done, because I didn't do them.  In fact, I have no fellowship with them, and didn't excuse them.  I won't be judged for telling  lie, or believing George's lies, because I tried to expose them in the light.  I am different, because I am a Christian.  I belong to Christ.

How can I, who have died to sin, live any longer in it?  I can't.  It repulses me.  I don't want to live in sin, and if I discover it in my life, I do what I must to be free of it.  The Holy Spirit convicts me of sin and righteousness.

Your Geftakys theology has taught you that if you don't "go the way of the cross," or "give God complete control," or yield to Christ's life, you will be just like George, probably worse.  This is bogus and is an affront to the atonement of Christ.  When we are saved, we are new creations.  He didn't save us, only to hate and reject our flesh.  If you shake off the false teaching, and see Jesus, you will realize that all things are yours in Christ, and that you are lacking nothing.  This sort of person doesn't act like George Geftakys, nor is such a one capable of doing so.  Christians are different.

George doesn't operate this way.  He has a seared conscience, and even now he is trying to deceive people.  He's different, he doesn't feel sorry for what he has done, he won't acknowledge it, he is a liar.

Christians are different.

Examine your premises, and perhaps you can break free from the false teaching that you have been raised on.  I'll name it in greater detail if you like, but you will have to give me a few days. My son is in a basketball tournament, and I am cooking for a dinner party tomorrow.

Brent

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Brent,

I am not saying that you are as bad as George, not in the least.  I am just saying that the opportunity is there.  

And just because you have been saved, that you have died to sin, does not mean that you can't be enticed with it.  It is up to you, to stay away from those things which do and ask God to help you.  Just because the chains of sin have been thrown off, doesn't not mean you can't still hear them rattle.

Quote:"If a Christian is no better than a false teacher, than why does the Bible warn us about false teachers, and their inpending judgment?"

Anyone saved is called a Christian.  Marilyn Manson was raised in a Baptist Church.  Probably saved.  But there will be judgment for him as well as anyone who chooses to go their own way even if they are saved.  There is consequences for sin.  Maybe not hellfire, but something else.

Not all Christians are different from George.  He is not a unique sinner.  It has happened before.

Quote: "Your Geftakys theology has taught you that if you don't 'go the way of the cross,' or 'give God complete control,' or yield to Christ's life, you will be just like George, probably worse."

No, it does not.  And please refrain from calling it "My Geftakys theology".  It's called reading the word.  No, the word does not say that if you refuse to give God control, you will end up just like George.  But there is the possibility.  As soon as you're saved, you don't get imparted with the new Sin Abstainer.  It is every day yielding yourself to the Lord.  Here is where our roads diverge.  And you are convinced that as soon as you're saved, you're fine.  Well, I feel differently.  So be it.

Quote:"Your last post is so peppered with false Assembly theology that I really don't have the energy to  point out some of the major points."

Just because you disagree with what I have to say, does not mean it's false.  It's called reading the word.  Feel free to disagree, but the next time you point out that someone  else is proud, reread what you wrote here today.  Please except my humble condolences.

Christianity is a committment.  A committment of giving yourself to the Lord everyday and asking him to help you abstain from sin.  

Please notice in all that I've said, I have not bashed you that what you wrote is just "false anti-assembly anti-Geftakys theology mumbo-jumbo."  Maybe you can take that to heart.  You seem to always be the correct one while everyone else that disagrees is utterly false.  Examine your premises.
 
Luke