So WHO Is Decieved???

[affirming]

you guys sound a little like job's friends.  
Job 32:3
3   Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.  (KJV)

this stuff is like reading a dictionary.  why?  because it's content is words upon words spoken out of a soulishness and lacks the loving and tempered spirit of God.  i have not read everything in this thread - don't need to in order to get a couple things right.  

are you sitting down boys?  (i'm only speaking to you the way you spoke to and about luke).  george was and is God's servant.  yes, he, i believe, got too big for his britches....but God is big enough to take care of adjustments that need to be made even in george.

george was not a infallible man when many put him up as "the great one" and guess what - he isn't a devil.   he's a man who, i believe, will find God's grace and mercy in a way he has never seen through these judgments.

be careful when you say that you would never do thus and so.....you don't know what you would do.  God sustains our life.  when we get the idea that we are above any kind of sin, we could turn around and find claws growing, hair  growing like a beast, an urge to begin or forage....watch out!

some have sounded so threatened by george's life.  God is not threatened by george.  God sees george as one who is small in His hand.  now, if you don't feel compelled to be under g's leadership, etc. - don't.  i think it is even ok to speak of things that seem left or right of center....but the strong language really needs to be tempered in order to make a case that one is speaking from a heart filled with the love and benevolence of God.  you run the risk of ripping some out of places by fear instead of encouragement - you can't push a string....ever try that?  in love and tenderness a case may be made that others should perhaps pursue godly instruction from other mature believers.

you know, there are some things that God has to "fix" Himself in a life (like g).  he's not beyond help or outside of God's reach - although it sounds like some would just be thrilled if that were true.  He's a big God and is totally unthreatened by a man,  but He loves us as His dear children and will take care of business in His good time.  

oh, i know the phone lines are going to burn with responses to this post, but oh well.....go for it.  temper, temper.  be careful, because when God adjusted job, his friends who condemned him had to ask his forgiveness and ask for prayer in order to get released from their own spiritual prisons.  

affirming    

[Heide]

Luke,

If what you say is true then why are assemblies folding and why are leading brothers repenting? I know that I have been apologizied to many times from leading brothers because two years ago I took a stand against the SLO assembly for allowing the abuse from David. It cost me everything in the assembly. Maybe that doesn't hold water with you. Maybe the losing of friendships doesn't count with you. Maybe being slandered in a small community doesn't mean anything to you. It meant everything to me!

This BB is the best thing to ever happen. People need to talk. People need to tell what happened to them in the assembly at the hands of George, David and Tim. I won't defend these men. Their acts will hold them accountable.

Don't play devil's advocate with me. I was there and I have first hand information. David and George are evil men. Talk about sins of the father being passed on?? George abused David and David abused his family. Tim, bystander? He was told what was going on, both he and Ginger knew. Guilty? Absolutely!

Here is a question for you. If George is so innocent, why is he selling his house and moving? I know, why doesn't he have a repentance meeting? Oop, already tried that.... Even Fullerton disowned the great man, George Geftakys. The ship is going down.....

[affirming]

heide, you sound very bitter.  how will you justify bitterness in your heart when the Lord asks you for your love?  how will you be able to condemn others - guilty or not and find forgiveness yourself? impossible.  you were hurt.  have you hurt others ever? i have.  it should be a humbling experience.  emotion does not heal emotion.  bitterness grows bitterness.  pls. forgive and you will be forgiven.  it's not easy to come into forgiveness on an issue when you've been hurt so very deeply.  but i know from experience that one cannot come into sweet fellowship with the Lord and have bitterness.  He will sweetly ask, heide, what is that that that you have in your hand that you are hiding behind your back?  may i see it?  can we talk this over?  this is the heart of our sweet Lord isn't it heide?  you would be better off to be mad at the Lord for allowing you to be hurt.  He has big shoulders and with God there can be reconciliation.  there are men and women who hurt us that we can never get reconciliation with in some cases.....so our sores stay open.  it will require an effort to let this go and get quiet on it (in your spirit).  there's nothing wrong with construction light being put on things, but when the heart is glaringly bitter - we can't walk in the spirit because "I" am too big.

[Joe Sperling]

Affirming----

You would do well to remember the words of Jesus, and I will paraphrase: "It would be better for a man to have a millstone wrapped around his neck and be thrown into the ocean, than he should harm one of my little ones".  Heide has every right in the world to be very angry, and the Lord knows that. For Heide to simply say "Oh well, I have been harmed by these men but I'm going to let it all go because it's not very christian to be angry" would be wrong. George is an impenitent person. He didn't just sin like any of us can, or "fall into error". He has done what he has done for years and years, and knowingly.

And now when brought to account he refuses to repent. Is this the mark of someone who simply "stumbled"? No, it is not! This is the mark of someone on a path of evil. It amazes me when I hear people come to George's defense like this. Look again at what has happened!! George has been EXCOMMUNICATED and still REFUSES to repent. This is not someone who has "stumbled" like we all can. Affirmed, have you been excommunicated? That is a very serious thing!

This man who fails to repent, and his sons have done great harm to many people. Heide is one of them. I don't think the Lord would ask her what she has behind her back--I think he'd tell her to let it all out--let your emotions free and be healed. He'd be asking George what he's got behind his back because he fails to repent.

--Joe

[editor]

Acts 20:26  "Therefore I testify to you this day that I [am] innocent of the  blood  of all [men].  27  "For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.  28  "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own  blood .  29  "For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.  30  "Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.  31  "Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.  32  "So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.  33  "I have coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel.  34  "Yes, you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me.

Please, before you read what I have to say, understand that I consider my contribution and faithfulness to be a mere sliver of the example and courage that Paul testified of in the above passage.  I use the analogy as if comparing a victory in a Little League game with a World Series win.  The emotions and sense of accomplishment are similiar, but the scale is quite different.

how will you justify bitterness in your heart when the Lord asks you for your love?

Dear Affirming (why is your email hidden, and why do you use a false name?)

Where in the Bible does it say that the Lord asks us to justify something we do/feel?  On the contrary, it is God who justifies the UNGODLY!  We are merely called to give account; however, the debt has been paid by another.  We will need grace, whether we have "bitterness" or not.  I seem to recall some obscure passages that say things about millstones around necks being BETTER than the judgement that will be meted out on those who stumble little ones.  You have done a good job correcting Heide for her bitterness, Affirming, so I ask you, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO CORRECT GEORGE FOR HIS ADULTERY, THEFT, LYING, ARROGANCE AND FALSE TEACHING?  Have you ever said anything out loud?  Written a letter perhaps?  Or did you simply pray.  In the passage I quoted above, Paul wasn't commended for merely praying about the whole counsel of God, he actually opened his mouth and made intelligible noises, at great personal cost.  When he warned them night and day, about false brothers, who were speaking perverse things, do you suppose that he had any bitterness towards them?  Afterall,  Paul recognized that Jesus bought the church with His own blood. Heide did the same thing, in fact, she was one of the very first people to warn others about David Geftakys.  she has recently been publicly exonerated for the shameful way she was treated for speaking the truth.  Heide has suffered for righteousnes sake.  What have you done, Affirming?

you were hurt.  have you hurt others ever? i have.  it should be a humbling experience.  emotion does not heal emotion.  bitterness grows bitterness.

Tell the women that George abused, Rachel or even Judy, "You were hurt/beaten/raped, etc.  Have you ever hurt/beaten/raped others?  sure you have.  What happened to you should be a humbling experience.  Your emotion does not heal emotion, Judy.  Dear Rachel, your bitterness only grows bitterness."  This is a really twisted line of thinking you foist on us here, Affirming.  Following your reasoning, the victim, the little ones who were offended, become guilty, and we are to show pity and understanding to the ones who WISH they could go swimming with a millstone!  Are you going to scold the Lord Jesus for his tone on judgement day, when he calls people wicked?  This same Lord Jesus also said, "You know them by their fruits."  What's the problem here?  Why is it so hard for some people to call a spade a spade?  Can you say, DECEPTION?

you would be better off to be mad at the Lord for allowing you to be hurt.

No, a person is never in a good state being mad at the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  This is a bad idea.  I would much rather be angry with the people God is angry with, than be mad at God.  God is angry with false teachers, and those who stumble little ones.  To suggest that Heide would somehow be better off being mad at God-- who has "big shoulders," instead of being mad at George is so stunningly ignorant of the facts, so glaringly against the basic tenets of right and wrong, and so full of the dark deception that stifles the hearts and minds of George's foolish followers--  is pure folly!  Are you actually saying that Heide would be better off being mad at God, instead of George?  I read and re-read your post, and that is what you are saying?  Is George higher than God?  This is what you imply!  I am amazed.

but when the heart is glaringly bitter - we can't walk in the spirit because "I" am too big.

 (Sigh) ......ah, the confusion of GG's self/flesh doctrine.  I need to address this in a seperate post.

Dear Affirming:

Perhaps I am a little different than other posters, perhaps not.  Let me just share with you a few things I have learned:

Everyone was against me, and said silly things to me like what you said to Heidi.  I knew they were deceived, foolish ignorant people, so I didn't listen to their counsel.  I took comfort in the truth and in fellowship with Christ.  It turns out that the truth has carried the field, and won the day.  However, there will always be those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness; and I cite George, David, Tim, Testa, McCallister as leaders in this respect.  I don't know about you yet, but it is possible you could be a follower of such thinking.

Abusive people have an uncanny skill at manipulating facts, twisting things, and turning the tables on those they abuse, making it their fault.  "The reason I hit you, is because of YOUR sharp tongue.  The Lord is showing me how to deal with my temper, please help me by not speaking to me like that."--actual quote from an abusive husband.  

This goes along great with self/flesh people.  The abuser is not guilty, it's his heart that's guilty.  Afterall, we all have sinful hearts, don't we?  Also, the abuser isn't TOTALLY guilty, because the victim provoked him, and didn't help him.  She is also guilty, and bruises heal, right?  Don't be so harsh on a man who is a striker and a coward, we are all strikers and cowards, right?

When we are always focused on the conept of "I" being too big, in the way, etc.  we will never get the victory.  If we spend most of our time trying to put to death what is not meant to die, we will only reap confusion.  This obsession with self-life, or "I", is a messed up form of idolatry.

I want to say more about the preceeding two paragraphs, but before you respond, please read them carefully.  Also, don't even try to quote Solomon, Penn-Lewis, Mantle, Fenelon or any of those people.  I have read them all quite extensively.  If you disagree with me, quote the scriptures to back up your claims.

By the way, I do not plan on apologizing for this post, or my last two, in fact, I think they are some of the best ones I have written.  It also doesn't phase me in the least to be called "judgemental," etc.  If I ruffle the feathers of a GG follower, or one who continues to cling to his demonic teaching, then I take it as a medal of commendation.

Affirming,  if you read carefully the information on the GA.com website, and still hold to the opinions you SEEM to express below, you are one of the ones I can look at and say, "Lord, I am innocent of their blood.  I did everything I could to tell them the truth."

Here is how I am praying:

Lord, I pray that the people who continue to follow Geftakys, and those that schemed to bring Timothy Geftakys back into leadership,  will experience stunning judgment.  I pray that since the salt has lost its saltiness, and that the righteous have departed, you will give them over to a debased and perverted mind and that they would do great wickedness, in order that no one can ever again be deceived by them.

Read Romans 1 and 2.  It is not a small thing to reject the truth, and it is a truly horrible thing to manipulate people who are speaking it into thinking they are somehow guilty, or equally at fault.

Brent Tr0ckman  (email NOT hidden)

[affirming]

dear brothers, you are angry, bitter, and offended.  why don't you admit it?  if we make any too big, we are not giving the Lord His place in our hearts.  you can go on and on.  i can relate to what you are saying about the hurt. no i didn't keep quiet.  i was considered a rebellious sister somewhat by many.....probably some of you as a matter of fact.  i really don't hear anything any different in some of these replys....strong words and strong, controlling (spiritual sounding) opinions laced in these last posts with bitterness and anger.  let's get into the truth here.  the Lord died for His enemies.  what do you think an enemy is?  someone who you see eye to eye with and who hasn't hurt you?

[editor]

OK,

I'll bite.  I am angry and bitter, and offended.  My opinions are spiritual sounding, and they are strongly held.

Let's get to the truth here:

What do you mean when you say:

the Lord died for His enemies.  what do you think an enemy is?  someone who you see eye to eye with and who hasn't hurt you?

?

In order to get the discussion going, I define an enemy as someone who wants to wrongfully harm me in some way.  God defines enemies as hardened sinners, with the chief of these being, The Enemy.  The pharisees were some of Satan's elite troops.

So, Affirming, you can ignore my last post and turn the tables by calling me angry, bitter, offended, strong and controlling.  I accept that.  

what do you mean to imply by your statement that God died for his enemies, and how does that fit in to our discussion?  I am not good at interpreting things like that, I much prefer explanation.

Brent

[affirming]

when i was His enemy, arrogant, proud, rebellious, when i hurt His people - He forgave me and gave His life for me.  when i sinned with impunity, He forgave me and didn't take it personally that i was selfish and self centered.  

i have been bitter and offended in the past and couldn't get over it in a day or one sitting, but faithful christian friends told me the truth that they thought i had bitterness in my heart that i would have to face and work on.  i did.  not i can recognize it a mile away.  it doesn't just go away.  

we make our enemies bigger than the Lord in our lives by putting them in such a prominant place.  it steals our joy and our peace.

when we are bitter and hold offense in our hearts we also have difficulty hearing the Holy Spirit - the Lord of our hearts.  if we can't hear Him very well - how can we get directed out of harmful places.

re: anonymity - why is the option given.  i don't you who you are brent.

another thing.  if the Lord gave you grace to do the exposing website - why are you taking the credit?

affirming

[editor]

Affirming, I'll have more to say later.

RE: me taking credit.  God forbid!  He gets all the credit.  I am taking less credit than Paul in the quote from Acts.  The fact is that I did the website, with much opposition.  I can't change that fact.  If stating it means I am taking credit, so be it, but if you have read any of my essays, my farewell address, you would see that I am NOT taking credit.

I agree with you about bitterness,  BTW.

The problem I am attempting to address is not bitterness, but DECEPTION.  Deceived, unbitter people are going to hell!  (JW's who aren't bitter, not christians)

I'll have more to say later.

Brent Tr0ckman

[affirming]

we are accountable only for the light that we have.  everyone is decieved to more or less degree and not in full light in the beginning.  to be limited in light doesn't damn us to hell.  those who are living by the cross, humbling their SELF life, not saving themselves - can hear the Lord in their spirit and can obey Him.  i have found that in the past by not serving my SELF i.e. my natural man - and stepping over into the spirit man of my life that i am empowered because i can hear the Lord giving me direction to move out, to say something, etc.  

it is not a sin to be deceived and those deceived are not necessarily going to hell.  as we grow into more and more light in the Lord we get closer and closer to Him and will enjoy His presence more in this life and in the life to come.

the wicked who chose to serve their flesh will go to the deepest hell.  

the soulish will find themselves in misery as they may be choosing to be here in this life. the soulish are not spirit dominated and so they are full of themselves.  they may be proud that they are not indulging their flesh with sensual pleasure and living in the farmost externals of their lives, but they cannot be close to the Lord of spirits if their strength is in their minds and their wills have not been yeilded to the Lord.  

bitterness keeps us right at home in SELF serving.  i was hurt, they are bad because they hurt ME.  

forgive and you shall be forgiven.  the truth is that until we learn to come into forgiveness and learn how to not be offended, He has forgiven, but we don't even know what it is.  one cannot be a receiver of something that he doesn't understand.  
forgiveness is a word.  it's easy to say.  it is not easy to do when we have been REALLY hurt, betrayed, lied to, etc.  it takes some time and spiritual effort.  but there is no end to self serving and feeding offense is like pouring fuel on a fire that is already burning.

[Heide]

When I left the assembly two years ago I was accused of being bitter so I feel a need to put my two cents in.

Affirming- if you believe I am writing out of bitterness. I apologize to you that I sound so. I write out of a conviction to tell the truth. In the midst of this BB I don't want people to forget what happened here in SLO. I don't want you thinking that the Geftakys family have repented and are full of kind works and doing good deeds all over the world. If I have to stand up on every housetop and proclaim every bad thing I saw until they repent, I will do it! If I stopped before they repented I wouldn't consider myself to be faithful.

Remember the truth, remember what happened. These men are accountable. It's funny though, never before the assembly have I had to account for my emotions. Perhaps the geftakys ministry does make me angry. So what? The Lord says be angry, just don't sin. I don't think talking about evil men is sin. I don't think telling the truth over and over is sin.

Heide

[affirming]

it sounds like you feel called to do this.  if so, all i can say is that this is a very unusual calling of God.  why would you want to keep in focus something or people who you feel held you captive?  they hurt ME  is about ME.   it is not about them.  

revenge or vengence is MINE said guess Who?  it sounds also like you want payback for your loss.  i have had to learn to lose in so many areas of my life that now i know before the Lord that i have become a good loser.  we don't learn things very deeply unless it really cost us something. but if we will count the loss as gain in that i lost and i hate it, but i'm going to move onward and forget about it.

i really relate to you heide and appreciate where you are coming from.  i also went through allot, but you know i ended up much better off than i ever would have if i had followed the path i was on when i first came into fellowship.  i can tell you that no one would have dealt with my will or confronted my stubbornness the way i was in the assy.  and i learned allot about relationships in Christ, His will and God's ways of doing things.  many put up with allot from me.  i took allot and i dished allot out.  i hurt allot of people in the name of the Lord, but i also blessed allot of people.

heide, unless you have heard the Lord calling you to a ministry of exposing those who are wrong i would really try to go on to pursuits of a peaceful nature.  there is a time where our "warfare is past".  i think you have probably fought a good fight, now you can go home...that's what soldiers do.  let God take care of those who offend.  He's a big God.  whatever we do, we must go forward with peace in our hearts - peace must reign.  this is one of the ways we know where to go, what to do, etc.  is it a path of peace?  am i holding something out from the Lord that is my sweet little cupcake that "I" want to chew on some more?

believe me when i say, i have been there.  it's a discipline to say no when self pity knocks at the door.  i remember when i wouldn't admit it was self pity - but the Lord kept saying in His sweet way - yes it is self pity. but please hear me when i tell you heide, you will not get rid of any of this stuff in a day.  

i remember being so angry, offended, hurt, hating, etc. and knowing it eventually, admitting it to the Lord only eventually, then beginning to forsake it, and then continuing to forsake this self serving position and turning to serve my dear Lord in the spirit.  

the big cost is that we cannot serve self and the Lord at the same time.  it is impossible.  they are at enmity.  self motivation want to preserve self and wants to think for itself and wants it's way, wants to worry about itself...but if i decide to serve the Lord in my spirit then i must forsake my self centered motivation and serve Him.  it's no longer what do i think about this for me?  what do i want to do? etc.

it doesn't hurt a thing to speak up when someone is envolving me in a thing that i can see is not where the Lord is taking me....but the key is to stay in love and obedience to the Lord who is in our spirit.

i realized that the price i was paying for bitterness was closeness to my Lord.  do you see this?  anger is not the best way.  why does He say be angry and sin not?  it's almost an allowance for our natural man because we are weak, but the 2nd part "but sin not" shows us that it will be easy to move from anger to sin (hatred, offence, etc.)  just so i don't sound too awfully pious, you couldn't possibly have a temper like mine (in the natural)  it's bad, bad, bad.  

personally, i like a lady with a little spunk.  affirming

[Lurker]

Here is the observation from a long-time lurker.

Brent's  posts are centered around what a person said or did.  He quotes, and then draws conclusions.  His logic is sharp and cutting, and very difficult to argue with.  Perhaps there are flaws and mistakes in what he says, and someone pointed it out, it seems to me that he would admit it.  His attacks are not personal, but focus on words and deeds that he feels warrant strong opposition.  To the best of my knowledge, as an extensive lurker, no one has been able to point out flaws or inconsistencies in Brent's logic, or use of the Scripture to back up his points.  That is not to say that he doesn't have mistakes and flaws, but people have not been able to point them out.  In this recent thread, Affirming has answered ZERO of Brent's logic.

Affirming's posts sidestep the issues.  This thread is about deception, not bitterness.  Instead of dealing with the idea of deception,  she sidesteps the issues and calls the people, "bitter, opinionated, and infers that they are not in the spirit."

I think it is really interesting that the crowd who is sympathetic to the lodge, for whatever reason, almost NEVER sticks to the facts, but always, instantly and without exception, tells the victims that they need to forgive and move on, etc.

If the topic is deception, why is Affirming changing the subject to bitterness?

I think it is because she is totally unable to assail the truth and logic that she is faced with, and is forced to assail the character of those who are speaking the truth.

I would like to see Affirming answer one question posed to her.  Read Brent's last 3 posts and pick one of the questions that he brings up, with regard to Affirming's own words.  Pick the easiest one, and actually answer it.  That would be interesting.

a lurker

[Joe Sperling]

Affirming---

Every post is appreciated and everyone has their own point of view. But your last post brought back so many Assembly memories. "Self" is bad, don't think for yourself, don't state your own opinion.   Heide made a simple committed, spiritual statement. if she needs to she'll shout from the house tops all the bad things that were done until it brings a true repentance.

Then you made your post which basically states "deny your feelings because if you get angry you just might sin". That was the patented Assembly opinion which basically says
anger= sin(because it just might lead there). If someone like Brent Tr0ckman hadn't taken it to heart(and listened to the voice of the Lord I might add) to start a website, the same "business as usual" would be continuing in all of the Assemblies today.

What if Brent had "denied himself" and said "OH, it's wrong to be angry or the least bit bitter, I better just be quiet because that MUST BE what the Lord wants. The Website must be my idea, not the Lord's". That would be foolish thinking.But because Brent was willing to take the reins and start up the Website at the Lord's call many people have been called to account, and many more have been put on a path to healing.

Affirming---you seem to hold a distaste for the word "I". But I must say there is nothing wrong with that word. That is why the Lord made us all individuals, and gave us all emotions. He didn't give us indiviuality or emotions to deny them.  In the Assembly if you stated your own opinion you were "full of yourself". If you got angry you were "in sin".

I thank the Lord for the word "I". I'm the only one of me that there is. I thank the Lord for taking the time to create me. And he didn't create me so that some other people can tell me what to do or who to marry, or where to live like the Assembly did. I thank the Lord I'm free from a place like that.

--Joe

[editor]

we are accountable only for the light that we have.  everyone is decieved to more or less degree and not in full light in the beginning.

 

Seriously, I have heard this before, but I ask you, where do you see this idea in the Bible?  I don't read anywhere where we are accountable for the light we have.  People who no light at all are going to hell!  How can that be if they are only accountable to the light they have?  No light=no accountability?  I am not trying to put words into your mouth, I am simply asking you to clarify what you said.  Using the Bible would be helpful.

those who are living by the cross, humbling their SELF life, not saving themselves - can hear the Lord in their spirit and can obey Him.  i have found that in the past by not serving my SELF i.e. my natural man - and stepping over into the spirit man of my life that i am empowered because i can hear the Lord giving me direction to move out, to say something, etc.  

Again, I have heard all this, but where do you see these ideas in the Bible?  I know where the phrase "Natural man," occurs, and I know where the word, "cross" occurs, but where do you see the ideas I quote from you above in the Bible?  Where do you see the idea of "living by the cross?"  Also, where does it say how we are to "step over into the spirit?"  

it is not a sin to be deceived

Yes, it is a sin to be deceived.  There is no excuse for a Christian to be deceived.  Ignorance and deception are totally different.  Deception is Sin, and only comes about by sin.  Again, where do you see your ideas in the bible?

The soulish will find themselves in misery as they may be choosing to be here in this life. the soulish are not spirit dominated and so they are full of themselves.  they may be proud that they are not indulging their flesh with sensual pleasure and living in the farmost externals of their lives, but they cannot be close to the Lord of spirits if their strength is in their minds and their wills have not been yeilded to the Lord.

Again, I have heard all this before, (used to believe it myself once)  Where do you see this teaching in the Bible?  Soulish Christians are in misery, is this part of the "outer darkness" teaching?  Again, I am asking a serious question here, I would appreciate an answer.

 Also, If I yield, and you don't, that makes me closer to the Lord than you, according to what you said above.  So, this part of my salvation is based on works, namely my yielding to the Lord.  Correct?

forgiveness is a word.  it's easy to say.  it is not easy to do when we have been REALLY hurt, betrayed, lied to, etc.  it takes some time and spiritual effort.  

Can a person forgive, and still be angry?

(I am setting you up with this one, be careful.  Jesus forgave all, yet some are going to hell. In fact, when He returns, He will be full of wrath!  Yet, he is not bitter.  Is it possible you are confusing anger and bitterness?...think hard.)

I am still awaiting a direct response to the last 3 posts I wrote to you Affirming. (thanks lurker )

I would like to see you answer the part where you say that being hurt is humbling and where I ask how it would go if you were to use this thinking on the women that George abused.  If I am looking at this wrong, it is up to you to set me straight!

Brent