So WHO Is Decieved???

[Heide]

What was the topic? Who is decieved? Stop muddling the waters. I'll make ya a deal, George, Tim and David  repents of everything and I will stop talking about it.

I learned something very important once about negoiations, once you turn and make it personal, you've lost. Instead of getting mad or upset Affirming,  can't you just talk to me? We might be closer to the same page. I have sorrow for the people (little sheep) that were treated badly in this ministry. I watched my beautiful friend be torn down by her husband. Her husband, a leader who couldn't be touched. Maybe you were one of the women that she told about it and you did nothing. Yes, she is out now but how many more woman are in the same position?

So what is the bottom line Affirming? George was excommunicated because of his sin. Would you like me to call him and tell him that I forgive him, would that be peaceful to you. Would you like me to invite him up here to preach his godly messages? You talk around the subject but let's talk about the subject.

Have we been so decieved that two women arguing becomes a cat fight? It is ok to disagree, the world won't end. We won't suddenly be whisked to the face of God. People have been arguing over the bible for years and its interpretations. Here is mine "You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free" How are you going to know it? Read it and discuss it.

Heide

[Kimberley Tobin]

Thank you Pat for a clear and insightful, measured response, that I hope ones like Luke and Affirming will take to heart.  I love the analogy of puzzle pieces.  I think those of us who were involved for any length of time, have our own puzzle pieces.  It is why I spent SO MANY morning times, agonizing before the Lord.  Weeping, struggling, knowing what I was experiencing in my deepest heart was not what the Christian life was supposed to be like.  But who could question?  Who could you even go to with these doubts?  Doubting was sin.  When I ever had the temerity to raise any of these doubts with the leadership it would be turned around on me.  I would be told I was in sin.  A classic assembly technique to keep the sheep in line.  So many puzzle pieces and yet due to the assembly control techniques you couldn't put the puzzle together to make a complete picture.  For our family, as for Pat's, it was the discovery of these other puzzle pieces (thank you Brent and the others who were bold enough to challenge the assembly party line and give us those other puzzle pieces) that made the complete picture, that enabled us to be delivered from the bondage, which is the assembly life.

For those who are filled with a little more emotion, like Heide, I don't fault them.  In fact, I have been known to post on this same bb with as much (if not more ) emotion.  Emotion is something God has given us.  I believe he uses it as a barometer.  They are red flags that we should be paying attention to.  He doesn't want us to live there.  It is simply a door to be walked through.  I believe this bb has been a help to those of us who have experienced these emotions in their rawest forms.  We have reached out to one another, many in private messages and phone conversations.  This is where the healing takes place.  We are human and we have human emotions.  As Christians, we are to help one another, as 2Corinthians 1 dictates.  We comfort one another with the comfort that we have received from Christ.  This is biblical.  I understand the Heide's, the Brent's and others who Affirming or Luke have pointed to as "non-Christian" in their behavior.   I am no different and neither are Affirming or Luke, if they think about it.  I will reach out to them in love, ministering the life of Christ.  To walk through the door to another place.  A place of liberty in Christ.

[Joe Sperling]

Luke----

I appreciate your posting again. But I really feel you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not angry and bitter towards anyone here. What I was trying to say is that George has not repented--he hurt many ,many people--these people have a right to be angry with someone who hurt them and then refuses to repent of what he has done.

The only thing I get "angry" about is when someone makes light of the fact of what has really happened. Affirming takes the stand that we should all just brush everything under a rug and think nice thoughts. There is an "anger" that is only for anger's sake, but there is also a righteous anger--an anger that stems from seeing people hurt around you needlessly.

There is an anger that arises when you see someone walk away from his crimes and avoids justice. I don't know about you but when I see a child-killer paroled after 5 years due to a "technicality" I become very angry. On a smaller scale when I see a George Geftakys excommunicated and he walks on in his unrepentant way, and people come to his defense, I get angry.

I hope you are understanding what I am saying. I am not angry at George or the Assembly just because I want to be angry with them. If I'm angry it's because of George's response to his excommunication, and the leader's response, and some people who continue to want to come to his defense and lessen what has happened.

When someone says "We're all sinners, we could all have done what George has done" they are attempting to lessen what is an EXCOMMUNICATION and a serious sin. This is cause for righteous anger, because you are attempting to lessen what THE LORD has done. You are attempting to lessen what THE LORD has exposed. You are attempting to play down what THE LORD considers a very serious matter.
You are defending a man and a system THE LORD wants removed. And when you lessen what THE LORD considers a major issue I get angry.  Do you understand what I am saying?

Thanks for your post Luke, I hope you continue, and God bless you.

--Joe

[Eulaha L. Long]

Joe,

Bravo to you for standing up to Luke's messed up perspectives!  We need to stand for what is right.

[Arthur]

The title of this thread is, "So WHO is Deceived???"  I came across this article and thought, man those people are deceived. And I saw some parallels to the Geftakys ministry.

I think we all can learn a good lesson from this. I don't know if you all heard about what Jesse Jackson did, but what is even more alarming is that people still supported him and wanted him to lead them.  And, unless I'm mistaken, the same  is happening with Geftakys and his followers to this day.  

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/01/21/jackson.02/index.html#1

<quote>
'We love you, Rev. Jesse Jackson'
Jackson had been in seclusion since Thursday, when he acknowledged the affair in a written statement. He said at the time that he would leave public life for a time to reconcile with his family.

On Sunday, however, he told church members he is grateful to supporters who made it clear that they want him to return to the helm of the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition as soon as possible, and indicated he is ready to resume his work.

Salem Baptist pastor, the Rev. James Meeks, who also is executive vice president of Rainbow/PUSH, told Jackson that the coalition needed his leadership.

"Reverend, we want you to know something today: Not only do we love you, not only do we care for you ... we can't afford to lose you," Meeks said.

"We need you, we want you, we love you, Rev. Jesse Jackson."
<end quote>

Look at this.  The "reverend" committed adultery and lied about it for years.  Now that the results of his sin have been exposed, idiots are welcoming him with open arms and saying "we can't afford to loose you...we need you, we want you, we love you Reverend Jesse Jackson"??

So someone comes up to you and says, "I'm going to lie to your face, rip you off, live in lechery, pretend that I am worthy to lead you, act with an air of arrogance lording it over you, and all the while make you feel good about it."  
Then do you say, "OK!  please sir can I have another?"  

The short-comings of human nature astound me.  The fact that I am one of them is disheartening.  But the fact that God loves us, is for us, bears with us and helps us in our weakness is cause for great joy.  
Let us be grateful and pay attention to the warnings of the One who so cares for our souls.

II Cor 11
19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. 20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

John 5
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

James 2
1 My brethren, show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. 2 For if a man with gold rings and in fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, 3 and you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, "Have a seat here, please," while you say to the poor man, "Stand there," or, "Sit at my feet," 4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my beloved brethren. Has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into court? 7 Is it not they who blaspheme that honorable name which was invoked over you? 8 If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well.

I Cor 4
6 I have applied all this to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brethren, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another. 7 For who sees anything different in you? What have you that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift? 8 Already you are filled! Already you have become rich! Without us you have become kings! And would that you did reign, so that we might share the rule with you! 9 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death; because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are wise in Christ. We are weak, but you are strong. You are held in honor, but we in disrepute.

[Arthur]

Oh, and get this, I just looked at that article some more and it reports that Jesse was the spiritual advisor to the president of the United States -- Bill Clinton.  Jesse counseled Bill on how to handle the Monica affair. You can only imagine how that counseling went.  I was going to write some more, speculating on that, but then I thought that it wouldn't be too edifying, though humorous. ^^
Let's just say, I doubt Jesse was telling Bill that what he did was wrong and that he needs to repent of it.

[affirming]

you know i know that it is difficult to think that anyone else has experienced the kind of hurt that "i" have, but just to set the record straight....i went through some pretty tuff stuff when i was in the assy.  i had a worker who worked for me that lied all of the time about work being finished when it wasn't, used the company account to charge personal stuff, wouldn't pay it off, told me he had sent the money in, when he hadn't, then would get up and preach toward me about the love of money.  

i went through agonizing betrayal.  everything i said that was 100 % positive was construed to be negative about the brethren and passed on to g&b.  but in my case i turned around and snitched also and got him in some trouble too esp. since i was his employer.  

when my husband, who had left me for my faith, would come into town, he would beat me up, take my car - since he flew in - come and go and do what he wanted - so do i know anything about physical and psychological abuse?

on top of these kinds of things, i decided i wanted live in community with sisters - so i started asking sisters to live with me.  for the first time in my life i got to sleep in a bunk bed - moving out of a big sprawling mansion of a house into a small corner of a shared bedroom...with another girl. this can be good fellowship for a young girl who hasn't just come out of a marriage.  in my case, i thought i had entered the suburbs of hell.  i cried and cried and cried...

now i have only described the tip of the iceberg.  i was always in trouble with g and or b...but you know something, even tho they were wrong in many instances, like joseph, God used it for good.  12 years of what i would call prison.  i became good friends with a fellow prisoner - joseph....so neither was my stay short nor was it less than horrible.

having said all of that, i must say - it all worked for my good.  no matter what anyone else intended, whether they repented or not....i grew up and learned how to hear the Lord myself and therefore stepped out.  i awakened out of sleep and left by His leading.

now i understand that many of you did not have the luxury of awakening by gentle nudgings and i understand that you will not and perhaps cannot hear and admit to the suggestion that you have bitterness.  to have bitterness is normal under these circumstances, but not to eventually forsake it is a damning decision.

truly, i have a little violin that plays "my heart bleeds for you", but i'm not joking.  my heart does bleed for all of you who have been so hurt.   but i'm here to tell you that you must
Ps 45:10-11
10   Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house;
11   So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.  (KJV)

i am not suggesting that anyone "shut up" and hide the truth about abuses, wrongs, etc. but i am suggesting that if these things are not done in the spirit of the Lord rather in bitterness, it will hold you in bondage and so your captors still have you bound whoever they may be.  sometimes it's good to walk away, get on with your life and then come back and look at it.  

some of these posters are so mean and theological that one is afraid get very close.  this is why i shy off a little.  i will never, never, never allow anyone to corner me and control me again.

i feel brent and his band are just more of the same.  i spent many years as a sister older in age and experience to young brother who decided when and what i could do, where i could go, some even tried to tell me how to invest my money from real estate - some who had never not only not owned a home, but were at the time unemployed and couldn't pay their rent.  don't get me started....

i am not saying that anyone should just act like these things didn't happen.  i apologize if some of you sisters especially think i'm getting on your case.  i am not.  as a fellow escaped prisoner - i urge you to forget.....as best you can and get on with your life.

[Joe Sperling]

Affirming---

I appreciate your post, I really do. And thanks for sharing
some of your experiences. Everyone who was once in the Assembly has their own story to tell, some more horrific than others. But I really think you have Brent Tr0ckman all
wrong. When you say "Brent and his band" I find that rather troublesome. Brent is fervent for the Lord--fervent enough to start up a website at the Lord's leading and expose the Assembly for what it was.

I think you are confusing zealousness for the Lord with anger and bitterness. Brent was instrumental in exposing George and David, leading to George's excommunication.
When Brent sees anyone trying to defend George or his teachings he is "zealous for the Lord" and immediately seeks to help that person see the light. Because how can you defend a person who has been excommunicated and refuses to repent? How can you defend the teachings of a person who was excommunicated and refuses to repent?

I'm thankful to the Lord that "Brent and his band" are zealous for what is right and hope they continue to be
continuously. But thanks for sharing some of your pain from the past Affirming and I hope you continue to post.

Take care,  Joe

[Joe Sperling]

I ended my last post with the phrase "I hope they
continue to be zealous continously"  I keep repeating
myself repeatedly.

[affirming]

dear andrea,  yes i do believe we could have a hoot of a time talking about some of this stuff.  now some of it is funny.

yes, i think i know what you mean when you refer to discussing differences of doctrinal opinion amoung friends, but unless i am missing something here, in many instances there is not an objectivity and restraint as sort of an ongoing pattern in many of the posts.  it's advisible, in my humble opinion, for people who come out of the assy to however accept other believers and not strain over a gnat.  i've heard foriegners  and immigrants speak of the need to assimilate when coming to america.  people who have spent a long time in the assy have been isolated and find it difficult to accept other believers' views on doctrine.  who speaks in tongues, who doesn't, how high can you jump in a meeting, should we dance the waltz or dance in the spirit, music, no music, once saved, always saved, or no, oneness or trinity or triune, all of the catholice issues, and yada, yada, yada. i love em all and could have fellowship with any who love Christ.  i just let them have it their way - it doesn't hurt me a bit.

to give you an example of what i think is shameful and harmful - because of some of the views i expressed that certain ones did not agree with or couldn't understand - i rec'd some pretty interesting private emails.  one of the best or should i say worst goes as follows

 -There is something terribly wrong with you...your invoking pseudo-spiritual language does not mask the obvious deep spiritual scars you bear...what exactly did George do to you madam?
Your representing a man of  this level of depravity as God's servant betrays a spiritual darkness that I find startling. I see you for exactly what you are...a vessel of wrath.
Verne  

nice huh?  listen my husband and i have a pretty lively fight once in awhile but we love each other despretly. and i know that one can earnestly disagree with another on scriptural or theological interpretation - but unless i am badly mistaken i have felt like some of these brothers would love to just clean my plow.  doesn't the above email kind of sound a little rough to you?  and the sarcasm that brent uses really reminds me of bullies on my grade school play ground at recess....and his matter-of-factly diced and sliced conclusions and the "passing down of godly interpretation of any given scripture.  i would surely answer some of his questions if i detected on oz. of the love of God in his asking.  and his bragging and all of the back slapping from others for his willingness to open the website.  when is enough enough on that?  when can God start getting the glory if this is of Him? this is my point.  is it more about brent's work and his wonderfulness and his cost in it all.  or can he step aside and become big enough to give God the credit for using him---i think it's because he doesn't see God as the BIG player here.  all i keep hearing is the crack of an elbow from brent patting himself on the back.

oops, i'm not being a very subject and submissive sister am i?  

[editor]

but unless i am badly mistaken i have felt like some of these brothers would love to just clean my plow.  doesn't the above email kind of sound a little rough to you?  and the sarcasm that brent uses really reminds me of bullies on my grade school play ground at recess....and his matter-of-factly diced and sliced conclusions and the "passing down of godly interpretation of any given scripture.  i would surely answer some of his questions if i detected on oz. of the love of God in his asking.  and his bragging and all of the back slapping from others for his willingness to open the website.  when is enough enough on that?  when can God start getting the glory if this is of Him? this is my point.  is it more about brent's work and his wonderfulness and his cost in it all.  or can he step aside and become big enough to give God the credit for using him---i think it's because he doesn't see God as the BIG player here.  all i keep hearing is the crack of an elbow from brent patting himself on the back.

oops, i'm not being a very subject and submissive sister am i?  

Dear Affirming

I don't want to come across as being brash, or bragging about the website, which I no longer run.  I stepped away from it, the moment God showed me I was done with it.  I do not hold it dear, or have my identity wrapped up in it, which is why I let it go, quickly.  (Ask Steve and Margaret how it came about)

God is the big player here, and I give Him all the glory.  If you would talk to someone who knows me, or who has sat with me when working out repentence, etc.  I don't think you would get a view of me anything like what you say above.

The fact is that I did step aside from all this, although you indicate to the contrary above that,  "can he step aside and become big enough to give God the credit for using him---i think it's because he doesn't see God as the BIG player here."

How much more aside do you wish me to step?  Have you read my Farewell essay on GeftakysAssembly.com?  I think that, and the other things I wrote, where I took time to edit and really think, express where I am coming from.

As far as I know, I have not insulted you.  I have clearly disagreed with things you have said, but have I really warranted being called, " bullies on my grade school play ground at recess?"  Have I said anything or written anything that would lead you to say,  "i think it's because he doesn't see God as the BIG player here.  all i keep hearing is the crack of an elbow from brent patting himself on the back?"  Have I insulted you, personally?  If I did, I am not aware of it.  Certainly we haven't emailed eachother, and I am not aware of any personal insults against you in our posts.  

As for sarcasm, it is a problem I have, which I repented of on January 18th.  You are absolutely correct in this, and I'll see what I can do to keep it in check.  It is a besetting sin.

Brent

[Kimberley Tobin]

Affirming:

You do not know Brent at all.  If you did, you would know he is the first person to give God the glory for all that HE (God, not Brent) has done in using the website and the bb.  For all of your "humility" and wanting to espouse the right "christian" behavior, look at the finger pointing back at you.  

Brent waited for years attempting to bring men (not only George and David, but others) to repentance through scriptural means (see Math 18).  It was only through the patient waiting upon the Lord for his timing, that the website and bb were used by God as a means of bringing the situation to the church (as is commanded by Math 18).  There will always be gainsayers, Brent simply has a heart for those who have been brainwashed by the assembly indoctrination (I was going to say theology, but I believe the word I chose is a better description.)  Brent could simply walk away from involvement with people here.  His involvement is not borne out of a desire for self-agrandizement.  It is to dialogue with individuals in order for their eyes to be opened to the truth, instead of the darkness that is so prevalent in the assembly teachings.

You want people to just "walk away, & get on with your life".  You left years ago.  You've had years to process your pain, anger, emotions over what you experienced in the assembly.  Many of those who are posting have not had that luxury, or aren't even aware of the false teaching they were involved with now that the system has been exposed.  This is a place to be FREE to dialogue with others.  To yes, disagree, but not to be told how to phrase something in order to please all, or how to conform to the scripture.  Those were lessons we were too well taught in the assembly.  We are now learning, and I am saying "learning" how to communicate ALL that is on our heart.  Sometimes it's not pretty.  But if you read my earlier post, that is why I am here.  I want to reach out to those who ARE hurting and help.  Not to point the finger and tell them how they are supposed to look as a Christian, but as a sister in Christ.  A fellow sufferer who has been shown the love of Christ, not through the assembly, but through coming out and seeing how faithful my Savior has been in the midst of an incredibly difficult time.  

[affirming]

verne, apology accepted.  g is God's servant.  you don't make him so and you or i don't demote him.  was king david God's servant when he sent bathsheeba's husband into the front lines and took his wife and had an affair?  did God no longer consider him His servant? and it did take him awhile to come around to seeing it God's way didn't it.  do you or i always see our sin immediately.  g & b has been dead wrong on some things.  we knew this many years ago...but they didn't.  i believe they were truly blind on some things.  they were inconsistant.  they who preached to no indulge your kids - did, but couldn't see it.  sin is blind.  they lacked compassion for those whose kids were out of order.  but are they still God's servants? i believe they are.  God will eventually deal with His servants with judgement.  he speaks and is patient and give umpteen chances to change....but eventually He will send samuel to his servant to tell him a little story about a man who had a little sheep.   he was so blind to his own fault and sin that he didn't get it that he was the guy in the story.  when God steps into the arena with His servant - the servant will go down on his knees - believe me.  g. is my father in Christ and b. is my mom in Christ.  i love them and just like my natural parents - i can see terrible mistakes they made that cost me alot (hey joe i got it right) of pain.

it is not for us to decide who is god's servants and who are not.  just as you have been a little blind and harsh - not knowing who it was you were condemning, yet you are an elder or some such thing - i think you should give God some room to have things the way He wants them.  all of our squawking, and cutting ourselves and giving everybody around us a headache does not bring the fire down any faster.

there was a great work going on - but God's work is made up of weak and frail men and women, so with this in mind - we should not bite and devour one another.  

i got plenty mad at g esp several times and i had some pretty good pow/wows with him.  he tried to excuse his emotionalism by saying that he was just an emotional greek.  but i didn't let him get off the hook.  he really didn't know what to do with me at times...but i can tell you that in many, many cases when young brothers tried to whip me around - when i told g. he came to my rescue.

he has handled things too stronghandedly and apparently from reports allowed david to be an idiot.  judy was in a bad, bad place.  i am close to both of them or at least was about 25 years ago.  but what happened to judy? don't they sell guns in ca?  i believe i would have had to do a little target practice on some knees or something.  people do go to sleep eventually.  oh well, easier said than done.  but i am a little upset with her for putting up with it all of those years - i say this because i love her.  she didn't have to have someone else in the assy. take care of this,.  not these days.  no in ca.  

God's work in our lives, as i read my bible, is not a neat little package of ozzie and harriet families that live happily ever after.  He said He came to bring a sword and division between household members.  He separates the sheep from the goats.  can't we let Him be the separater?

you all, i know, don't think you could every do what g. has done.  but which one of you will ever do all that g. has done in terms of His service and committment to the Lord and His people - big work - big mistakes.  

this whole mess goes to show that God does deal with things that are wrong in the lives of His servants and it can cost dearly...but if they grow proud and won't listen after some warnings - they will be turned over to judgement and all hell breaks loose.  

[Suzie Trockman]

Dear Affirming,

You say in your last post "g is God's servant"  and two paragraphs later you say, "it is not for us to decide who is God's servant and who is not."  Come on!

I vehemently disagree with this view.  First, I sincerely doubt that George is even saved.  How convenient it was to hear not to ever complain against God's servant.  This enabled abusive leaders to beat the sheep.

The Bible is full of examples where we are to discern who are God's servants.  In fact, aren't there qualifications?  If you are using leadership to mean God's servant, I believe there is.

I believe many of us would have taken a very different road, had we recognized and used our God-given discernment and conscience to see that g was not God's servant but rather a charleton with a very dishonorable history.

Just weighing in,

Suzie

[affirming]

probably not edifying! really?  would that you would extend such graciousness to others who have perhaps been very cruel.  yes, verne you may give my identity since - let's call it what it was - payback for posting your very rude email.  a man in your position should be a little slower to speak - even when you don't know who you are talking to.  i truly care about you, but you know i have been around the block a couple times.  you and i knew each other when.  no if i had wanted my identity known i would have given it some time back.  no matter how you agree with anonymity or not - i respectfully submit that you should not have sought revenge in giving it.  on the other hand perhaps you felt that you should have had a reasonable expectancy of privacy when you emailed me.  but i, unlike a judy type for example, will not keep abusive stuff quiet. that's where i "take off the gloves" ok?  now having laid all of my cards on the table - i need to break for dinner and i'm still sick so i'm not sure when i'll get back to respond to your 2 questions, but i committ to you my dear brother (being sincere) that i will asap.  let me give you hint of my answer - it may not fit in with your intellectual theology, but i could be surprised   affirming