So WHO Is Decieved???

[Suzie Trockman]

Affirming,

I forgot to mention that I read The Tale of Three Kings, and disagree with much of it.

Getting back to your post about God's servants:
Can I "decide" that Joseph Smith is not God's servant?

Suzie

[moonflower]

[quote author=affirming

you all, i know, don't think you could every do what g. has done.  but which one of you will ever do all that g. has done in terms of His service and committment to the Lord and His people - big work - big mistakes.  

Whose "work" was this?? I sincerely pray I never will do/have the same "service/committment" to the Lord and His people that George is guilty of.
Hear about the 2003 California Gold Rush?   Don't rush, though, "there is plenty and to spare". (Quote from The Hobbit, spoken by Smaug the dragon to Bilbo as he entered the dragon's lair, as the dragon lay in all the jewels that he had stolen from the dwarves.)

[editor]

Hi Andrea

Read,  The Tale of Three Kings twice.  It's really short and easy to read.  Then we can discuss it.

I DON"T recommend Tale of Three Kings for a number of reasons, but I don't want to say anything until people read it.  Make sure you read it twice!

Brent

[editor]

Hello Everyone  

I just realized that I took the topic even more off course with my last post.

Let's see if I can steer it back on track.

Who is deceived?

Any person who is loyal to George Geftakys, or his teaching and organization is deceived.

This is a blanket statement, but not a "broad brush," (which is bad according to some) because there are so few followers of George.

Let me re-state it, so no one can misinterpret what I am saying:

If a person is serving/following/receiving/supporting/protecting George Geftakys or his "assembly" they are deceived.  Let's remember that eh?

Now, I will be more than happy to defend my statements with facts.  Also, let me serve notice that if people are going to make statements about things, on a thread that I am watching--this is one of three that I watch--and their statements seem incorrect in a Geftakys sense, then I may point out their errors.  

I really agonized over this today,  "Should I just be quiet and let this discussion go?"  No Way!  I will not stand by and listen to geftakys deception ever again.  I'll try to be gentle, loving even, but I simply have no patience for Geftakysism.  I just think its bad for people.

Let's back on track, shall we?  

Geftakysservants are deceived.  That is a true statement.

Brent

[Mark C.]

Dear Friends!
   The Topic is "Who Is Deceived?" and I would like to address that by using some of the banter that has developed in this thread.  I will draw from some quotes from posts as examples, but understand that the one who originally posted these things may not have intended their point to have the meaning I give it; please do not take it personally, but as an opportunity for discussion.  Words do have meaning, and it is important to define our terms so that our talk can be profitable.
  Luke stated that, "Christianity is a commitment, or something like that", and then Al mentioned that the Bible does not use the word, "Christianity", and that we only find true relationship with God as individuals, through personal encounter with Christ.  Also, those who bluntly intrude with doctrinal exhortation/correction only muddy the water of that relationshp that God wants with His people.
  Affirming seems to understand the lack of deception as an inner experience of awareness; I'm assuming by means of inner light through the Holy Spirit.  When we identify and subdue the natural mind God leads us into the deep life with Him.  Doctrinal pursuits here are not helpful and are being used as a means of attack, and are based in bitter hearts seeking revenge for Assembly wrongs.

       THE FAITH ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS

  Christianity is faith in a set of objective facts.  How I feel, think, or even if I ever existed will not change these facts. (I:Cor.15:1-8).  These set of facts are also called "The Gospel", wherein is revealed the gift of God for men; our salvation.  It is an announcement of glad tidings that God has done something wonderful through His Son Jesus Christ on the Cross.  It is also called the "Grace of God in truth."  Grace, because it is all of God's unmerited favor toward us; a freely given gift that we don't merit, and never will.
   The above set of facts are set forth in the Bible via words.  When we hear the announced facts and place our faith in them we immediately receive the full benefit of the promise of salvation.
   As we study the facts of what the Bible teaches re. salvation, the nature of God, the Christian life, etc. we develop a theology, or a systemized view of The Faith once delivered. GG did not like the word "theology" or even of "bible study", as he was opposed to the above objectivity that I described.  Truth to GG was "inner truth" and to "study" the Bible meant you would "intellectualize" the truth. (a bad thing in his estimation)
   The Gospel facts bring salvation if received, but bring a curse if twisted or rejected.  This is why these facts must be earnestly contended for!  This is why Paul publically rebuked and corrected Peter! (in a later post I will answer the question, "was Paul bitter?")  The objective facts of the Gospel are the fount of eternal life and clarity is absolutely necessary!
   When I first left the Assembly I studied Evangelical Christian theology intently, and still do.  By giving my mind to the facts of the Bible God brought stability, healing, restoration, and balance to my life with God.
   Assembly instruction was primarily devotional in nature and aimed to stimulate the emotions (guilt, loyalty to the group, yieldness to group goals, self loathing, etc.)  Restoration of objective thinking skills turn the heart away from self centerdness and to the wonderful reality of the Grace of God in Truth.  God's Holy Spirit works through us by means of our minds.  It is not enough to be yielded in attitude, if I don't understand the message of God; we must be taught!
  When I speak of this objective instruction, I am not speaking of something difficult, but the simplicity that is in Christ.  None of us is "more" Christian than the next one, because this pursuit is not about higher levels of inner consciousness, but what each and every believer already has in Christ at the new birth.  It is our inheritance!
   At my next post I will discuss what we have in salvation, the instant we are saved, and how that can help us to understand the Christian life.
                          God has blessed us in Christ!  Mark
 
 

[Heide]

Hey Affirming,

I appreciate more of your story- thanks! Just so you know, this isn't my life and I don't think I am bitter.You might find that funny but as for me most of the leading brothers out of SLO have made things right with me. The story continues though for others who have not had an apology. I think of it like this, fellowship is broken. Roberto is the last lb in SLO who hasn't made it right yet. Do I stand by and forget about it? I don't think that is being faithful. Am I bitter and angry about it, no. There is a timing to everything.

I hate having to justify myself and that is what I feel you are doing to me by saying you know the will of God for me. Call me passionate or zealous, I believe the truth will set all those people free. If I am the one to tell it, then I am the one.

I am glad you spoke more of yourself and allowed us to see you in a more human light.

Heide

[affirming]

Hi Verne,

 george bush and tony blair called last night and wanted me to come out and meet with them today and help them get some things worked out on the war, but I told them that I had an important answer I had to give to a friend today and couldn’t make it.  Seriously, my our troops are in my heart.  I pray for their courage and safety.  My knees would sure be knocking, but they sound so brave and gallant.  I’m thinking about signing up and I’m really a pretty good shot.  My husband and I went rabbit hunting with my brother on my dad’s farm in southern Illinois.  We got 18 rabbits.  I got about 13 of them – some on the run – used my .22.  my husband could hardly believe it.  It was an unusually good day of hunting for me, but we grew up hunting and that sort of thing.  Yes, I know.  This is bragging.  

I think, first of all, I need to say that, verne, I don’t mean to be disagreeable, but I cannot accept the premise implied that because we are big boys and girls that rudeness and lack of courtesy are justified.  Generally people who operate like that end up in a room alone and/or in a room with a few other’s who with abandon just call it like they see it straight off the hip without giving a care to be led by the spirit of God. The standard that I will look for is kindness, respect, and courtesy.  Otherwise, eventually I have legs too – I’ve gotten pretty good at just vacating places where I’m uncomfortable.  As g. might be starting to see, people do have feelings.  I’ve hurt my share of people’s feelings and sometimes it truly is unavoidable, but your statement I believe is a little out of balance on it, in my humble opinion. Everything doesn’t have to be presented on a silver platter.  If all you have is a rough, wooden tray, so be it…but I happen to know that you, Verne, have a silver platter.  

Oh yes, and I will not be following your format in my answer.  You should have caught me about 20 years ago when I took brothers who tried to lead me very seriously.  No, no.  oops there I go again being a free thinker.  Back then I lost sleep over that stuff.  Now it makes me start yawning, understand?  But oh the joy in my heart because I am wholly dedicated to what my dear Lord says and wants of me – to the best of my ability.  I’m sure others hear Him better.  But it’s enough for me to know I hear Him.

I think we need to distinguish between church leadership that has been recognized by God’s people as first godly and led by God’s Spirit, those with spiritual gifting – not necessarily perfect, but upright…..as has been outlined in 2 timothy, etc.  we all have bibles I presume.  

When I speak of someone who is the Lord’s servant – they are just that. They are a servant of the Lord.  God has called them to serve Him.  I would venture to say that many of those who God has called to serve Him have problems.  Most of us didn’t start serving God in a formal ministry capacity, but perhaps started serving Him in very humble ways.

So I believe I see two sides to this coin.  There are those who respond to God’s call to serve Him.  They don’t go around and take a vote and see who all thinks they are worthy of a leadership position, etc.  a servant of God may feel called to wash cars, sell hats, be a carpenter, etc.  

The second side of this coin is mapped out in 2 timothy, etc. and are men and women who’s qualifications of lifestyle and character are judged by the people of any particular fellowship.

God gave each and every person a free will.  We are free agents with a free will.  We get sold a bill of goods occasionally that teaches us some BIG lessons sometimes on what we should buy into and what we should leave on the shelf.  

There are 3 who can get the blame for our own errors in judgment.  Myself, God, and in this case George & Betty.  Well, of course, I am the victim with no control over my own life….wrong.  then there is God who allowed all of my hurt and allowed me to go off base on my choice of fellowship….and, of course, we can’t be angry at God or He might get mad in return….that’s laughable.  But no, let’s just pin it all on that evil man, gg.  There is actually another that could be sited.  I don’t think I have read one single reference made to the devil, satan, the evil one.  Just a small, side observation.

Now, unfortunately for many of you who would like to end the assemblies altogether, you cannot because why? G & B started the assy’s and we live in a free society that gives people the right to assemble peacefully – which brings us right back to free agency.  If we were a part of a society that makes their religion a basis for their governmental structure like Iran for example….well then, we could get this all outlined as to who is god’s servant and then we could just legislate God’s kingdom and how it would be administered so that there would be no one hurt, etc.  but even that doesn’t work very well does it – as a matter of fact we are in a huge war over crazy fundamentalists’ ideas and condemnation of our values and Americans.  

God created each of us as free agents.  Each of us has sovereignty under His sovereignty.  We are joined at the hip with no one else.  Most of us have legs that will allow us to walk in and out of a place.  

I understand when some have spoken about the psychological entanglements that need to be untangled.  From my own experience, God is pretty good at this too once we simply take hold of our own lives and start deciding how things are going to go and begin to hear God’s voice – leading and encouraging us to follow Him on a path of peace.

Ps 118:8-9
8   It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
9   It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.  (KJV)
It does seem to me that, as I look back, that I epitomized (sp) g from the very beginning and so, like many that I now hear (or read) when I found out that he was far less than perfect, I lost my faith…because it was in him.  This was then my golden opportunity to find that only God is perfect and I learned, somewhat at least, to place from trust, my faith, and my confidence in Him.
to be continued - too long

[affirming]

Verne, to continue---
George has weaknesses…he’s a man.  God doesn’t call us because we are perfect. .  He calls us because we respond to him.   And yes you may be right – he may be disqualified.  I’ve been considered disqualified by my brethren before and that maybe hurts a little…but if he gets disqualified by God….this is a BIG hit. One cannot say “you are not God’s servant”and make it stick…. but one can say – you say you are God’s servants and believe you are and perhaps you are, but personally I think you’re kind of an idiot (not that I encourage rudeness – just making a point)….or I don’t think you really should continue to lead God’s people…in fact, if you do, I don’t think I’ll be hanging around any longer.  But God tends to let his servants go forward even when they have error albeit I’ve also seen Him get pretty rough with them if they get stubborn and won’t listen to the bleating of the sheep (as g used to preach).  God gives His servants many chances to turn from their error and correct things – thankfully He’s longsuffering with all of us….how do I know about His methods of adjusting attitude and errors that we are stubborn on?  He’s taken me to the woodshed on a few occasions and believe me those things that I was once stubborn on – got worked out.  Some of these things I just couldn’t see until He lit up my my rear end on it.  If god’s servants get stubborn, won’t take care of things the way they should in a selfless and sacrificial way – God has ways to straighten them out.  The stronger they are the harder they fall – I try to just get my little boat out of the way of those big cruise ships that I can see are about to go down.

As for God’s people who follow leaders in error – what can you do?  You can’t force them out.  And to get all rowled up as some people do on this bb I believe is perhaps somewhat expected and natural, but nonetheless counterproductive.

If someone wants scriptural reference - look at David’s life. He was God’s servant and he did some bad stuff of which cost him his son not to mention a lot of disgrace and shame on the Lord’s name….but God brought in a prophet to announce words of judgment that would consequently follow.  David was as blind as a bat about his error.  Samuel used an example of a man with a little lamb – had to depersonalize the story to get David to bite – why? Because he was spiritually blind at the time.  He had been blinded by sin.  David was a servant of the Lord.  David wrote shortly after his terrible big fall the following—

Ps 38:4-12
4   For mine iniquities are gone over mine head: as an heavy burden they are too heavy for me.
5   My wounds stink and are corrupt because of my foolishness.
6   I am troubled; I am bowed down greatly; I go mourning all the day long.
7   For my loins are filled with a loathsome disease: and there is no soundness in my flesh.
8   I am feeble and sore broken: I have roared by reason of the disquietness of my heart.
9   Lord, all my desire is before thee; and my groaning is not hid from thee.
10   My heart panteth, my strength faileth me: as for the light of mine eyes, it also is gone from me.
11   My lovers and my friends stand aloof from my sore; and my kinsmen stand afar off.
12   They also that seek after my life lay snares for me: and they that seek my hurt speak mischievous things, and imagine deceits all the day long.  (KJV)

Ps 40:12-15
12   For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me.
13   Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me.
14   Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.
15   Let them be desolate for a reward of their shame that say unto me, Aha, aha.(KJV)

Ps 51:9-11
9   Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10   Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11   Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.(KJV)

Ps 130:3
3   If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? (KJV)

Someone might say, well, g hasn’t repented like this.  I would have to say that that’s god’s business unless you have found a way to legislate who meets with whom.  And if you have I don’t want to live in your country.

I personally believe that g & b are servants of God that are the kind of servants that God uses for beginners to teach and get started.  This was my experience and it was a rough one…but it grew me up in Christ. I feel that I owe them quite a debt.  I know that I needed people to be strong in my life – people to teach me how to walk with the Lord.  They did.  They loved me and shepherded me and served me in ways that I look back on and am just amazed.  Did they make some big mistakes? Yes, but I knew that they were serving the Lord.  I just think that the service of a g & b is very limited.  It’s what God’s people learn after they’ve gotten through their grade school that can really bring them into deep spiritual life with the Lord.  I’ve been gone for some time and so I don’t really know how things are now…but I will say I know a lot of servants of the Lord and I haven’t met anyone yet who does everything right so as not to hurt the one’s they are serving….but that’s why I believe it is super important for each and every person to maintain “free agency.”

[affirming]

sorry, i'm not very computer saavy.  i wrote the posts on WORD. i don't know what all of the 8217, etc. are about.

in answer to your last question verne, i don't think abuse comes in from an inability to speak out as much as an inability to discern and hear God on things.

in fact, i would suggest that those who shoot first, etc. often end up being like their the abusers.

anything i can do to correct my previous posts?

[editor]

If someone wants scriptural reference - look at David's life. He was God's servant and he did some bad stuff of which cost him his son not to mention a lot of disgrace and shame on the Lord's name. But God brought in a prophet to announce words of judgment that would consequently follow.  David was as blind as a bat about his error.  Samuel used an example of a man with a little lamb; had to depersonalize the story to get David to bite ; why? Because he was spiritually blind at the time.  He had been blinded by sin.  David was a servant of the Lord.  David wrote shortly after his terrible big fall the following  (goes on to quote from psalms)

Dear Affriming

Wouldn't you agree that when Nathan came to David, and told his little lamb story,  David responded like a true Servant of God by repenting?

By contrast, if George was King David, he would have killed Nathan, or anyone else who dared to question his behavior.  George has never admitted one ounce of fault, neither has his sons David and Tim.  I see a huge difference here.  You also mentioned a difference in your post, but instead of commenting on it, you merely said:

Someone might say, well, g hasn'tt repented like this.  I would have to say that that's god's business unless you have found a way to legislate who meets with whom.  And if you have I don't want to live in your country.

OK....George and his servants used to legislate who met with whom all the time.  In fact their whole ministry was founded on this idea.  Are you recently returned from a foreign land?    (not trying to be rude, just making a point---quoting you...)

Also, you said the following:

When I speak of someone who is the Lord's servant  they are just that. They are a servant of the Lord.  God has called them to serve Him.  I would venture to say that many of those who God has called to serve Him have problems.  Most of us didn't start serving God in a formal ministry capacity, but perhaps started serving Him in very humble ways.

So I believe I see two sides to this coin.  There are those who respond to God's call to serve Him.  They don't go around and take a vote and see who all thinks they are worthy of a leadership position, etc.  a servant of God may feel called to wash cars, sell hats, be a carpenter, etc.  

Is it OK if I agree with you and tell you that, although I have never once called myself,  "The Lord's Servant,"  I qualify according to your postings?  Furthermore, according to the Bible, I also qualify, and more importantly am not DISQUALIFIED?

Why do you personally attack and insult the Lord's Servant?

Brent

[affirming]

brent, good morning,

q #1 i think you are perhaps right and i certainly have killed my share of messangers, but guess what - in due time at least one or two got through once God softened up the region with a few sorties.

q #2 did none of these people have legs?  i used mine - you used yours.  g isn't an official of the gov't who arrest someone if they don't comply.  you can't escape from your captors until you have the ability to see it and walk out.  does this mean that everyone else out to cut themselves, and yell and scream until the fire consumes the sacrifice - do it it won't do anyone any good and often this kind of behavior breeds - that word again - bitterness.

q #3 to tell you the truth i think you are behaving better and using more courtesy.  yes, i do think you qualify - people tend toward flip/flopping a little i've noticed on this bb - so the jury is still out

i hope i understood your 3rd question - i'm not the smartest person, but i'm not exactly dumb either, but i am in love.

affirming

[editor]

q #2 did none of these people have legs?  i used mine - you used yours.  g isn't an official of the gov't who arrest someone if they don't comply.  you can't escape from your captors until you have the ability to see it and walk out.  does this mean that everyone else out to cut themselves, and yell and scream until the fire consumes the sacrifice - do it it won't do anyone any good and often this kind of behavior breeds - that word again - bitterness.

Yes, exactly

All of us had legs, and many of us left, years ago.  However, I have come to realize that although many had legs, few had eyes, and even though they left, they still couldn't understand what was wrong and had false guilt and shipwreck as a result.

The whole purpose of this discussion is to shed light on the problem, which is deception.  This makes it hard to use our legs, eyes, or minds.  So, my intent is to try to get people to "see it."  This requires kindness, patience, truthfulness, boldness, anger, fear, determination, courage, and lots of other qualities.

Light makes manifest.  George has messed up a lot of people, and sadly, many of them don't even know it.  They know they hurt, but they don't know why.

Brent

[Heide]

Nice gobbly gook but what is the bottom line?

George and Betty are deceived as well as crooked. What is a person called when someone comes and tells them the truth about what is going on and they are silenced and G&B do nothing about it? Those are not God's servants. Really, who did G&B serve, how many massages did George give out? Oh that's right, they were the ones that were served. There are testimonies on this BB as to their servitude in George's garden and home. People who did wonderful things in the name of Christ for G&B.

Do you think most of the little sheep would have been so eager to follow George, David or Tim if they knew about the sin (unrepented mind you) in their lives? If I had known that David was beating Judy, do you think I would have stayed? There is a choice here, if I have all the information I will make a choice.

I still think you are deceived Affirming, you jumped on here and condemned us all for speaking the truth. You don't know if this is what God has called us too. I hope once you take those rose colored assembly glasses off maybe you will see things differently.

Heide

[affirming]

Verne,

yes, i believe that's right -  that one who has been ousted by the church on earth can still be a servant of God...but first of all i have to say that the church unseen is much bigger and much more powerful than the one we can see.  this is where true administration happens notwithstanding the earthly church and it's decisions.  sometimes the earthly church appears to be rather fickle and powerless...ever noticed?  but the saints on high enjoy a heavenly heirachy of administration that truly establishes and keeps order amoung those who are His.  i believe they administer God's plan of salvation and levels of cleansing through trials, sanctification and teaching of faith, and levels of learning to live and deeper life in the presence of God in the spirit realm.  oh now i know where's the verse?  you know someone is going to have to put me on a payroll for all of the time i'm spending here.  i'm joking.

can you tell me this? are we promoted by heaven's staff before or after we are promoted by the church earthly? can we be promoted by heaven and not be promoted by men? can we be promoted by men and not by heaven's administrators? do they parallel?  what is promotion? and then i think that will take us to the question of "what is disqualification" perhaps.  and tell me this what do you believe the melchezedek priesthood is?

[wolverine]

Just a few observations from finally reading this thread...

Brent,

Although I agree with most of your posts, I think all of your accomplishments have gone to your head...that is completely understandable...it's just human nature...

P.S. My reply to Brian is also for you...

Al,

I appreciate your posts very much...you have a very objective outlook as "just a Christian" and that is very helpful to this BB...

Mark,

You are very gracious in your posts...I could learn from that...

Eulaha,



Verne,

I love the stupid little jabs...you have alot of potential, but...

Affirming,

You have made some great points...don't let the atmosphere of this Coliseum cause you to back down...

Andrea,

What?

Brian,

Are you part of the Trinity???  Can I have your autograph???

Retread,

Always a fan...

If there's anybody I missed, I missed you on purpose...