So WHO Is Decieved???

[psalm51]

listen to yourselves.  this is not about informing others - this is about fellowshipping the hatred of george.  you guys have lost objectivity.  g is very small in my life. is he in yours? you can say it's for others and that makes you sound so justified and godly and selfless.  but when i read some of the stuff several of you are living on - i can't seem to come up with anything but hatred.  you know you can get people so worked up that something awful could be perpetrated.  there are some really crazy and hurt people out there.  stating things brent like - he's got to be stopped can really get planted in some minds that could cause awful tradgety.  i know what you mean, but i just wanted to suggest that you could really inflame some of the wrong people.  i emailed verne to caution you on this...but i don't know if he did...i just think it's wise to make yourself clear when you use some of those terms.  

Affirming,
With all due respect, your experience in the Geftakys system was well over 20 years ago. Many of the people on this BB have been out only a short time, myself and family included. Our experiences are much more current than yours. Indeed your history with George and Betty is relatively brief compared with many who left only 2, 3, 18 months ago - after spending 10,15, 25 years in the system. As a matter of fact, George was not a "small" thing in many of our lives. As a former worker I would say that he was a BIG and imposing presence. He was also the catalyst for a lengthy and extremely painful estrangement in my family...there was nothing "small" about it. I thank God that G and B are now "small" in my life and right priorities are beginning to shape my life.

I think you are selling many of the people on this BB short, by continuing to insist that they are just "fellowshipping the hatred of George". You are entitled to that opinion, but in my-never-humble opinion, you haven't even begun to realize the wonderful impact the website has had on hundreds of people. I get emails every week from someone who has been delivered from the bondage of G and B because of the information that Brent and others have provided. Frankly, you sound a little sanctimonious sitting from a faraway perch, while many who have been under heavy, heavy guilt and bondage are coming out into the light and freedom. I would hope to hear how thrilled you are, but instead you keep "shooting the messenger". I just don't understand such a viewpoint. From my newly-liberated vantage point all I see is freedom, sighs of relief, and a great chorus of Hallelujahs. Yes, we do get a bit overwrought at times. Yes, sometimes it gets a little caustic.  Yes, sometimes we have a laugh at G's expense.  That's life on a BB, I think...welcome to a place where people can be honest and open about something that impacted where they lived, who they lived with,  who they married, how many kids they had, how they spent their free time...(what free time?!)...you get the idea.  

Can  you not rejoice with us? I can't stop rejoicing.

[editor]

listen to yourselves.  this is not about informing others - this is about fellowshipping the hatred of george.  you guys have lost objectivity.  g is very small in my life. is he in yours? you can say it's for others and that makes you sound so justified and godly and selfless.  but when i read some of the stuff several of you are living on - i can't seem to come up with anything but hatred.  you know you can get people so worked up that something awful could be perpetrated.  there are some really crazy and hurt people out there.  stating things brent like - he's got to be stopped can really get planted in some minds that could cause awful tradgety.  i know what you mean, but i just wanted to suggest that you could really inflame some of the wrong people.  i emailed verne to caution you on this...but i don't know if he did...i just think it's wise to make yourself clear when you use some of those terms.  

Affirming

By the above, do you mean to say Brent should be stopped, because I could get "planted in some minds?"  or do you mean to say George should be stopped?  Your grammer and sentence structure is unclear, which makes your thoughts unclear.  That is a problem on a BB, you must use your words carefully, because the only thing we have to go on is the words we type.  Unintelligible words yield unclear and confusing thoughts.

Having said that, I have been carefully reading your posts, and I have noted several things:

You always personally insult people.  You never stop at saying that what they say is stupid, or that their words might seem hateful, no, instead you besmirch a person's character, while at the same time ignoring their words.

This is the lowest form of arguing and is a tactic used by those who refuse to listen to reason, but are only interested in their agenda, regardless of the truth.  

For example, you have never responded to one single question that someone poses to you.  People, including myself, literally beg you to answer one question, and you respond with something like the quote above.  This sort of behavior is intelectually dishonest, rude, and demonstrative of an insecure grasp of the facts,  and a weak conviction of one's beliefs.  Please notice that I didn't attack you character, but your behavior.  You certainly have not shown me, or others the same courtesy.

What you have shared with us regarding your theology, and your ideas about deeper spirituality is not only false, from a biblical sense, but is always communicated in such a way as to put down others.  What you have to share appears to me to be half-baked, cheap spirituality, when compared to the basic tenets of the Christian faith.

Although you have every bit as much right to say whatever you want here as I do, from now on you will have to defend yourself, especially with regard to your assigning false motives and evil character to people.  If you can prove it, well and good, but if you are only saying things because you feel threatened by someone's viewpoint, you will be called on it.

I am still waiting for answers to some of the questions I posed to you a number of posts ago.  You said outrageous thing---which I called you on--- and then insulted me, and skulked away like a juvenile delinquent caught spray painting a profanity.  Instead, you should have had the courage and decency to set me straight and put me in my place.  You didn't do that at all, instead you insulted me.  You have done the same with others.  I am impressed, and not in a good way.

You spout off about how this should be healing, and loving, and your own posts are the most unloving and hurtful of all!  Everyone can see this, including you, but you simply ignore your last diatribe and move on to the next.

I think perhaps we shall find out what the real reason behind your rudeness is in due time, but in the mean time, I would like to see you show me the same courtesy I am showing you.  I even apologized to you, and you still failed to answer me.  If you think ignoring someone is mature, then you are mistaken.

Finally, why did you email Verne to have him talk to me?  Can't you email me yourself?  I noticed that you shared Verne's private email here with everyone, and now you want to triangulate with Verne to get me to do something.  this is manipulation, and is a cheap behavior that everyone in the Assembly is quite familiar with.  Never talk to the person directly that you want to control, never say anything out in the open, so others can hear what you say and to whom.  No, instead go behind someone's back and try to get someone else to enforce your will on someone else.  Sondra, I'll have you know that I don't take very kindly to this sort of thing.  It is a cowardly, manipulative practice, used most often by people with guilty consciences and impure motives.  Talking to third parties about personal issues with someone else, while never going directly to the person you have problems with is at best gossip, and is most often a form of libel and slander.  I am quite familiar with this.

By the way, if you think you have "gotten my goat,"  or pushed a button, think again.  I have proved more than a match for people who display far more intellect and skill at confusing the truth than you.  You don't even have the courage to answer a critic, let alone direct contact with a person you insult.  You are a behaving like a coward,  which is a usual trait of someone with a deep moral problem, or a very guilty conscience.  The fact that people like Verne even read your posts is a testimony to his courtesy and graciousness.  On the otherhand, your speech here has been brutish, rude, and entirely lacking in substance.  You are way out of your league, both in terms of courage and intellect.  Even so,  you are welcome, just don't suppose your views will be well received, when you share them is such a shoddy, mean and ill-advised manner.

It's open season Sondra,  other's who are far more qualified than you at the art of confusion and mystical spirituality, have not fared well here.  Then, there are those who started off like you, only to learn a thing or two, and then go on to teach all of us.  In those cases, they stopped the juvenile insults, and the tired old,  "where is the love " and actually began to use their brains!  We all benefited from this.  

So, what is it going to be?

Prov 19:29  Judgments are prepared for scoffers,  And beatings for the backs of  fools .

Prov 10:13  Wisdom is found on the lips of him who has understanding,  But a  rod  [is] for the back of him who is devoid of understanding.  14  Wise [people] store up knowledge,  But the mouth of the foolish [is] near destruction.

And my favorite:

Prov 26:3  A whip for the horse,  A bridle for the donkey,  And a  rod  for the fool's back.  4  Do not answer a fool according to his folly,  Lest you also be like him.  5  Answer a fool according to his folly,  Lest he be wise in his own eyes.

I, for one, am not going to listen to your confused speech any longer.  To do so only gives you the false impression that your contribution is actually helpful or stimulating in some way.  So far, you have only managed to try the patience of many of us, in much the same manner that a punk teases a man twice his size and strength.  Sooner or later, the better man's decency will give place to justice and a lesson will be taught to the contemptuous punk.  I will not answer you according to your folly.

I am turning up the heat on you, Sondra.

I shouldn't have said this stuff.  Instead of deleting it, I wanted everyone to see how I erred, as an example of how NOT to post.  I am in the wrong here.

Brent Tr0ckman  March 28, 2003

[vernecarty]

you guys sound a little like job's friends.  
Job 32:3
3   Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.  (KJV)
affirming  

Let us briefly consider the application of this passage of scripture to the current situation. Affirming's invoking it is presumably meant to have Job represent George Geftakys typically and those currently taking him to task Job's three friends. Let us examine the validity of Affirming's reasoning...

What is the scriptural record regarding the man Job?

The answer is of course given in the very first chapter:

 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil ?
Job 1:8
George Geftakys- Perfect? Hardly!
George Geftakys- Upright? Nope!
George Geftakys- Fearful? Keep Trying!
George Geftakys- Eschews Evil? Demon- Invoking Manuals??!!

The description of Job's character clearly suggests that Affirming's attempt to apply it to George Geftakys is a misapplication and results in the immediate demolition of the type if presented the way Affirming intended.
I would like to modestly suggest another way in which the type may be preserved and made valid and applicable.
This may be reasonably accomplished if we posit that not only is George Geftakys not typical of Job, but is in fact anti-typical.
 Would it then be reasonable to conclude that God's determination that what was said about Job, the type, being inapplicable, would necessarily apply to Job's anti-type?

This is the context in which I would invite us to revisit the speech of Bildad the Shuhite (tiny fellow):

  Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out, and the spark of his fire shall not shine.
 The light shall be dark in his tabernacle, and his candle shall be put out with him.
 The steps of his strength shall be straitened, and his own counsel shall cast him down.
 For he is cast into a net by his own feet, and he walketh upon a snare.
 The gin shall take him by the heel, and the robber shall prevail against him.
 The snare is laid for him in the ground, and a trap for him in the way.
 Terrors shall make him afraid on every side, and shall drive him to his feet.
  His strength shall be hungerbitten, and destruction shall be ready at his side.
 It shall devour the strength of his skin: even the firstborn of death shall devour his strength.
  His confidence shall be rooted out of his tabernacle, and it shall bring him to the king of terrors.
  It shall dwell in his tabernacle, because it is none of his: brimstone shall be scattered upon his habitation.
  His roots shall be dried up beneath, and above shall his branch be cut off.
 His remembrance shall perish from the earth, and he shall have no name in the street.
  He shall be driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world.
 He shall neither have son nor nephew among his people, nor any remaining in his dwellings.
 They that come after him shall be astonied at his day, as they that went before were affrighted.
 Surely such are the dwellings of the wicked, and this is the place of him that knoweth not God.
   Job 18:5 -21
Verne

[affirming]

brent, you're very correct.  sometimes i read my own stuff and i don't even know what i meant.  sorry.  i always did have a problem with sentence structure.  i believe i sense the Lord calling me away from this bb soon.  i'm just planting a few seeds.  i'll move out of the way so some of them can be brought home by the Holy Spirit.  He's inside and really knows how to tend His gardens.  

what i was trying to say is that when you make a statement like - "g needs to be stopped" - i know what you mean, but it concerns me with all of the crazies out there that someone might take you too literally and do something stupid.  it happens alot these days and that would be trigic.  this kind of concern years ago would just seem outlandish, but today people are killing people for any reason and justtifying actions in their own minds that a reasonable person cannot understand.

just for the record, in reading your posts...i can tell that you are a very fine person.  you misunderstand if you think i am accusing you.  i think that you aren't perfect in your heart on some issues, sometimes you seem to be defensive, sometimes bitter, self-justifying.  join the club of the human race.  i only called you on these things because as a shepherd over this work you feel called to - you are more accountable - huh?  heard that somewhere before?  i only say these things, not to hurt you, but to correct a little.  i don't know you, but i think you are, like verne, a quality person.  of course, someone will chime in "but all of God's people are precious in His sight" - yes that's true and yet there are some who lay down their lives for the sheep.  

as i mentioned i planted some seeds.  it is so very difficult to see unforgiveness and bitterness in your own life, but now i know that you and many others have at least rec'd the seed.  i don't fight against you.  i am truly with you in many of the things that you, verne, and others have said.  i don't know who g. is today - it's been about 17-18 years and i began to pull away some time before that.  i trust that God is leading you - but again i think you would not need to compromise your work at all to pull these dear hurt ones out of their unforgiveness and bitterness.  it doesn't happen in a day - this i know....but you and verne and some of those leading out in this thing will have to eventually take a long hard look at this if you want to come under and maintain the Annointing of the Lord on it.  He certainly gives us time, but He also expects progress and growth after a reasonable time.  but if, after that reasonable time He comes to check how his servants have invested and finds that they've been stubborn and lazy about issues and negligent - it doesn't go well.  one cannot say "well, but...g did this and so - and so i just got all upset and blew my temper and spread dirt and encouraged rage...etc."  there is certainly a godly balance.  

i have not defended g and i have not accused you.  everyone must stand on their own two feet before their Lord as i insist that i do and will do.  but anything less that hating the sinful behavior but loving the man will not interface with God's heart.  it does take time for wounds to heal, but i feel confident that you and many others will get there if just a few can continue to help with this.

i may have one more post in me - later - then i think i will be retiring.  this next one will be about some things that mean alot to me and might be helpful to you too brent.  by the way i was very impressed with you rundown on melchezedek (sp)--you've done some studying.

[vernecarty]

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!  Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!  Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
Isaiah 5:20-23

Let's get serious...
Most people, unlike Affirming and some others, are genuinely troubled and dismayed by the events of the last several months. Many are rightly questioning:
 "How could a man like George Geftakys, so notoriously hard on other people, live such a gross and depraved life for so long, while parading himself as an Apostle?"
This is a legitimate inquiry. As so many have ably argued, it is attributable in no small part to a frightful failure of the Church to fulfill its mandate. We all in some way bear resonsibility for the sad legacy of this man. The senseless drivel of those who would attempt to minimize the seriousness of something like this happening in the Church of Jesus Christ should give us little comfort.
I do not however want God's people to be unduly discouraged. He after all, still sits on the throne. In my own reflections on this over the last several weeks, as I have repeatedly asked the question:
"How could he possibly not repent?"
How could he possibly not repent??!!!
 I have been frequently drawn to the record of the ninth chapter of Romans and I believe its teaching should be a source of comfort, confidence and conviction to all who read it in the light of what has been happening.
It is my own view that the absence of repentance by Geroge Gefakys for gross sins committed while in the service of the Lord God Almighty is undeniable testimony of God's judgment on him.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,  and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 9: 17-18


It is entirely inconsistent with the Divine character, that this man could ever be considered a vessel unto honor. He has shamefully disgraced the name of the Lord and with vulgar impunity defiled the sanctuary of the Most High. The only scripturally defensible explanantion for what we see is that his iniquity is not yet full. He is certainly a vessel of wrath.

 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?   Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?   What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 9: 19-22

Those of you coming into this forum to defend and deny the true nature of George Geftakys and men of his ilk wll find many ready, willing and able to unsheath a sharp two-edged sword and skilfully apply it to sever you from your depraved, deluded, and deceived musings. Be prepared.
In the joy of His service,
Verne

[affirming]

hey verne,  i've been sick and couphing so i've been up at night as of late.  but what's your excuse? don't you ever sleep?  hey, it really sounds like you need a vacation - can you get away? why don't you and your lovely wife go somewhere fun?  i do think you are a little to close - you used to be somewhat light hearted and laugh and kid around.  maybe i'm getting it wrong, but it sounds like that really nice smile you used to have that was so full of light - got darkened.  when i read you i see in my minds eye a sad face.  is it true.  you talk about g. like he is in your closet and you can't get him out.  why is he so big in your life? let's say he truly is the monster you've made him out to be.  do you do well to let him be so big in your life?

[affirming]

verne, one other thing.  you make the idea of using a two edged sword sound so spiritual.  it's sondra, remember me?  i know you from way back.  you've always used that two edged sword, but i wouldn't say it was your best trait.  i propose that more often than not, amoung christians, that sword is used by many to kill, usually other christians, not to do surgery

[Heide]

Now that we have affirmed who is deceived (I know, bad pun...)

One of the things that I have missed being out of the assembly is someone to judge my intentions. Someone to keep my motivations in line. Wow, Affirming I am so glad you are here to check my heart and actually be able to see it! You know the will of God for my life, you are truly an assembly person.

Let's get one thing clear... I have every reason in the world to hate David G. I watched him stalk his wife. I listened to his wife when she told me of the abuse that had been happening for years.

BUT I DON'T

I WANT repentance from David, George and Tim. I want these men to be accountable. I also would like to see Betty repent and Ginger. I don't just hold it to the men.

You are very good at muddying the waters but you don't do well with the issues. Come up to the plate. Does George need to repent or not?

Heide

[Mark Kisla]

Verne,
 I enjoy your posts, I find it refreshing to hear the truth spoken.

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Brent,

Your bullish behavior towards Affirming unfortunately can not go unnoticed.  So I decided to come out of retirement.

You never cease to amaze me.  Your amazing humility.  Your love for everyone.  And your sad hypocrisy.

You do not frighten people with your big, bad posts, except maybe your children.  Your intimidation tricks need a little work.  Go talk to Mr. Geftakys.

This is the bluff post.  Where through a number of the things you said, I just can’t believe you so I am calling you out.  Let’s see how you do.

Quote #1:
“You always personally insult people. You never stop at saying that what they say is stupid, or that their words might seem hateful, no, instead you besmirch a person's character, while at the same time ignoring their words.”

Isn’t this the same thing that I said to you???  You get the Hypocrisy Award for that last post (quite prestigious!).  I can’t believe that the Brent Tr0ckman we all know and love said such a thing!  Well, I’ll be…  You need to apologize to affirming for that comment and then take the two-by-four out of your own eye.

Quote #2:
“This is the lowest form of arguing and is a tactic used by those who refuse to listen to reason, but are only interested in their agenda, regardless of the truth.”

Riiiiiight.  The truth according to Brent.  Wow.  I wonder why more people don’t come here!  I mean if you are the only one with the truth…then what are all those sad people doing without it?  Living happy lives?  Please apologize again to affirming.  You are trying to use her to score brownie points with the other readers on this forum.  You are trying to publicly ruin what she has been saying.  Unfortunately for you, it isn’t working.  You know why?  Because affirming will not sink to your level.  

Quote #3:
“This sort of behavior is intelectually dishonest, rude, and demonstrative of an insecure grasp of the facts, and a weak conviction of one's beliefs.”

Please.  She is a grown woman and has seen plenty.  Maybe you should take notes.  And apologize for saying she has weak convictions.  You know better.

Quote #4:
“Please notice that I didn't attack you character, but your behavior. You certainly have not shown me, or others the same courtesy.”

Well, you sure attacked mine.  And a dozen others who eventually stopped talking to you until you stop playing Dr. Freud.  By the way, affirming has done you a great courtesy.  She has tried to reason with your bitterness but to no avail.  She has not gone straight to the praise thread, but she has talked to you, not attacking your character, but simply observing.  Apparently, you have agreed on a few of her observations.  Maybe you should apologize and then thank her.

Quote #5:
“What you have shared with us regarding your theology, and your ideas about deeper spirituality is not only false, from a biblical sense, but is always communicated in such a way as to put down others.”

There.  You just compromised what you said before.  Apologize to affirming for saying that she’s false.  She has come to many conclusions that differ from yours.  Get a hold of yourself, Brent.  God loves her as much as He loves you.  And how do you know you aren’t wrong?  Big fonts don’t prove your point.  They are just a cry for help.

Quote #6:
“What you have to share appears to me to be half-baked, cheap spirituality, when compared to the basic tenets of the Christian faith.”

Please apologize to affirming again.  Your sad display of intimidation needs to be fine-tuned.  Eat your humble pie in peace.  Your circular reasoning might work at your church, but not here.

Quote #7:
“If you can prove it, well and good, but if you are only saying things because you feel threatened by someone's viewpoint, you will be called on it.”

Say that again?  Hmmm…  I am calling you on it.  I think that affirming’s and my posts worry you.  That is why you write such things.

Quote #8:
“You said outrageous thing---which I called you on--- and then insulted me, and skulked away like a juvenile delinquent caught spray painting a profanity.”

Please apologize to affirming for that childish remark.  It was not funny.  It was only you trying to score brownie points with the other people here.  I really doubt affirming is one to use profanity, but after talking to someone with your logic, some might find it grounds for such language.

Quote #9:
“Instead, you should have had the courage and decency to set me straight and put me in my place.

She did, Inspector.  You just had your hands over your ears.  
 
Quote #10:
“You didn't do that at all, instead you insulted me. You have done the same with others. I am impressed, and not in a good way.”

No, she didn’t.  She told you something that you didn’t want to hear.  So is that an insult?  If exhortation is an insult, then you have an issue to take care of.  I can guarantee that about six people will quote that last sentence and say, “That’s EXACTLY how it was in the assembly!  I wish that Luke would stop defending assembly ways!”  Give it a break, folks.  It’s getting overdone.

Quote #11:
“You spout off about how this should be healing, and loving, and your own posts are the most unloving and hurtful of all!”

Your hypocrisy is the most hurtful of all.  Please apologize for reading affirming’s posts the wrong way and then using them to score points on this forum.

Quote #12:
“I think perhaps we shall find out what the real reason behind your rudeness is in due time, but in the mean time, I would like to see you show me the same courtesy I am showing you.”

---Said the Great Rude One.  

She showed you a great courtesy.  YOU were quite rude to her for daring to cross you.  We know how you hate that.

Quote #13:
“I even apologized to you, and you still failed to answer me. If you think ignoring someone is mature, then you are mistaken.”

It seems you have quite a deal more to apologize for.  Affirming has shown great maturity for not entering into petty arguments with you.  Are you taking notes?

Quote #14:
“No, instead go behind someone's back and try to get someone else to enforce your will on someone else. Sondra, I'll have you know that I don't take very kindly to this sort of thing. It is a cowardly, manipulative practice, used most often by people with guilty consciences and impure motives.”

Riiiiiight.  So you are saying that you have never done this?  So you have never discouraged anyone from agreeing with the enemy?  I am calling your bluff.  Hopefully, you can come to the answer on your own.  Then maybe you can apologize to the group for lying and showing hypocritical behavior.  And don’t call her a coward.  Verne decided to use his favorite weapon against her, and suddenly you jump on her case for letting it known.  It’s called abuse.  You didn’t get mad at that.  You just told affirming to handle her own problems.  Did you tell that to Judy or Rachel?

Quote #15:
“I am quite familiar with this.”

We know you are.  So please stop doing it.

Quote #16:
“I have proved more than a match for people who display far more intellect and skill at confusing the truth than you.”

I am calling your bluff.  Most intellectuals could probably eat you alive.  I’d rather not.  I heard you taste kind of bitter.

Quote #17:
“You don't even have the courage to answer a critic, let alone direct contact with a person you insult.”

WHAT DO YOU THINK SHE HAS BEEN DOING??!!  Silly fellow.

Quote #18:
“You are a behaving like a coward, which is a usual trait of someone with a deep moral problem, or a very guilty conscience.”

Please apologize to affirming for calling her a coward.  She has been very brave in standing up to you.  Most people would stop talking to you until you stop playing the psychologist.  I have a prescription for you: Go sailing and read your Bible (not necessarily in that order).

Quote #19:
“The fact that people like Verne even read your posts is a testimony to his courtesy and graciousness.”

Verne has been gracious?  I think he’s been taking one too many lessons from you.

To be continued...

[Luke Robinson]

Continued from previous post...

Quote #20:
“On the otherhand, your speech here has been brutish, rude, and entirely lacking in substance.”

On the otherhand, you absolutely have no grounds to talk.  So please stop.  Too many are drowning in your shallow behavior.

Quote #21:
“You are way out of your league, both in terms of courage and intellect.”

The humbleness here is killing me.  Brent, stop flattering yourself.  As I said before, in most intellectual discussions, you would fall short.  You have yet to prove your powerful intelligence.  Please apologize to affirming for acting like you’re her superior.  It’s not healthy.  Or wise.  Go back to defending your bitterness.  

Quote #22:
“Even so, you are welcome, just don't suppose your views will be well received, when you share them is such a shoddy, mean and ill-advised manner.”

Affirming didn’t start writing to be well-received.  She had a view point and wanted to share it.  Ill-advised?  From you…  I advise her to keep writing.  But if no one will listen, then she wasn’t a flash in the pan, but a beacon of wisdom.  That you and your powerful “intellect” tried to tear down.  It didn’t work.

Quote #23:
“It's open season Sondra, other's who are far more qualified than you at the art of confusion and mystical spirituality, have not fared well here.”

Open season on Sondra.  Grab your hunting permits!!  We’re gonna catch one!!  Others more qualified at the art of confusion and mystical spirituality left along time ago.  You know why, Brent?  Because there work is done and they have been quite successful with your “intellect.”

Quote #24:
“In those cases, they stopped the juvenile insults, and the tired old, "where is the love " and actually began to use their brains!”

You sure know how to distinguish between the juvenile insults and exhortation.  Yeah, those that promote the “tired, old ‘where is the love’ ”, should probably go somewhere.  It doesn’t work here.  Too consumed with bitterness and anger.  Or they should throw out their hearts and keep their brains.  Riiiiiiight.

Quote #25:
“To do so only gives you the false impression that your contribution is actually helpful or stimulating in some way.”

I tried this trick.  It didn’t work.  You are still posting.  

Quote #26:
“So far, you have only managed to try the patience of many of us, in much the same manner that a punk teases a man twice his size and strength.”

I liken affirming to a big dragon trying to fight off a pack of coyotes, who just can’t stand getting their egos burned.  God forbid she tries your patience!!  You seem to have so much of it, Mr. Tr0ckman.

Quote #27:
 “Sooner or later, the better man's decency will give place to justice and a lesson will be taught to the contemptuous punk.”

Again, stop flattering yourself, Brent.  Your humility is incredible.  It prepares me for like-minded people out in this dark world.  You need a lesson in humility.  Maybe affirming can be “decent” enough to teach you.  While you’re at it, apologize to her for calling her a punk.  You are living in a fantasy, Brent.  

Quote #28:
“I will not answer you according to your folly.”

The only folly here is your hypocrisy and fantasizing about your amazing intellect.

Quote #29:
“I am turning up the heat on you, Sondra.”

No one is frightened, Brent.  Work on your intimidation tactics.  By the way, in the past, you’ve been known to be all gas, no flame.  

Oh, and by the way, Brent.  King David repented after he got caught.  You criticized the elders and brothers for doing that.  Apologizing after they got "caught."  

[editor]

Wow Luke

There are two things I wish to respond to:

Who are the dozen or so people who won't talk to me anymore?  You can tell me in an email or PM, because if there are a dozen such people, they probably want to remain anonymous.  

Also this:

"No one is frightened, Brent.  Work on your intimidation tactics.  By the way, in the past, you’ve been known to be all gas, no flame.  

Oh, and by the way, Brent.  King David repented after he got caught.  You criticized the elders and brothers for doing that.  Apologizing after they got "caught."  ""

First of all,  can you name one instance where I have been gas and all flame?  Even if it is embarrassing, please share it here with all of us.  Use a real life example, expose my gassiness.  It is one thing to call a person "all gas, no flame,"  it is quite another to back it up with fact.

I am guilty of one thing.  I should know better than to say some of the things I did, knowing that it would produce a response like yours.  That is stirring up strife, and no matter what might be behind my post to Sondra, it was the wrong thing to do in light of the present atmosphere on the forum.  It is wrong to stir up strife, and serves no useful purpose.  I should have waited for a better time before saying what I said.

One thing I have to say, Luke.  I really don't agree with much of what you say,  but I do admire you courage.  In a few years, as you grow up and mature (not at all an insult, you WILL grow up and mature)  your courage will serve you and your family well.

Some of you ideas may have to change, but your courage is good.

Brent

Also,

Thanks for your last post Affirming.

[editor]

Dear Andrea, Affirming, Luke, Verne, Mark, Arthur and eveyone else:

Brent,
So...ummm.....are you not going to apologize to Sondra??  I had some of the very same thoughts about that particular post that you made.  This is a woman....a Christian woman older than you are.  Her posts have been very candid, and simply expressing her opinion.  
If you disagree, and have the thought that she is defending "the assembly", why can't you just take those particular points and then dissect and "correct" with scripture.  Why did she need to be called "like a juvenile delinquent", etc...? It sure sounded like character attack to me.  Maybe she's right on some of her points.  In the past, you have been seemingly quick to apologize when needed.  

You are correct, Andrea.  In the past I have been quick to apologize when needed.  God forbid that this practice becomes something I only used to do in the past.  May it never be.

Let me be candid, and you can all straighten me out.  

The way I see it, Affirming (Sondra) began this by insulting me.  I did not immediately respond like I did in my last post, but she not only ignored what I was saying, but continued with personal attacks.  I am not the only one that noticed this.

So, my mind tells me this:

She is an older Christian woman, who should not have said the things she did.  After being patient, I could take no more and spoke out in anger against what I saw as foolishness.  The things I said were true, and I backed them up with her own words. If anything, she should apologize to me! She started it.  Her posts may have been candid, but they were rude. This is what my mind tells me.
However, my conscience is saying something different.

I should not have done what I did.  In the past, I advised many others who were frustrated with rude posters to be silent and ignore them.  On some of the most flaming posts from the past, you will find that my name is not on them, I stayed above the fray.  In this case, I not only failed to follow my own advice, but I went too far and said things that I should not have said.

Sondra, I do apologize to you for my last post.  I should never have uttered those things.  I am going to go back and strike through the words I wrote and you have my word that I will never treat you like that again.  I was wrong, and ask for you to forgive me.

Brent Tr0ckman

[editor]

listen to yourselves.  this is not about informing others - this is about fellowshipping the hatred of george.  you guys have lost objectivity.  g is very small in my life. is he in yours? you can say it's for others and that makes you sound so justified and godly and selfless.  but when i read some of the stuff several of you are living on - i can't seem to come up with anything but hatred.  you know you can get people so worked up that something awful could be perpetrated.  there are some really crazy and hurt people out there.  stating things brent like - he's got to be stopped can really get planted in some minds that could cause awful tradgety.  i know what you mean, but i just wanted to suggest that you could really inflame some of the wrong people.  i emailed verne to caution you on this...but i don't know if he did...i just think it's wise to make yourself clear when you use some of those terms.  

Affirming

By the above, do you mean to say Brent should be stopped, because I could get "planted in some minds?"  or do you mean to say George should be stopped?  Your grammer and sentence structure is unclear, which makes your thoughts unclear.  That is a problem on a BB, you must use your words carefully, because the only thing we have to go on is the words we type.  Unintelligible words yield unclear and confusing thoughts.

Having said that, I have been carefully reading your posts, and I have noted several things:

You always personally insult people.  You never stop at saying that what they say is stupid, or that their words might seem hateful, no, instead you besmirch a person's character, while at the same time ignoring their words.

This is the lowest form of arguing and is a tactic used by those who refuse to listen to reason, but are only interested in their agenda, regardless of the truth.  

For example, you have never responded to one single question that someone poses to you.  People, including myself, literally beg you to answer one question, and you respond with something like the quote above.  This sort of behavior is intelectually dishonest, rude, and demonstrative of an insecure grasp of the facts,  and a weak conviction of one's beliefs.  Please notice that I didn't attack you character, but your behavior.  You certainly have not shown me, or others the same courtesy.

What you have shared with us regarding your theology, and your ideas about deeper spirituality is not only false, from a biblical sense, but is always communicated in such a way as to put down others.  What you have to share appears to me to be half-baked, cheap spirituality, when compared to the basic tenets of the Christian faith.

Although you have every bit as much right to say whatever you want here as I do, from now on you will have to defend yourself, especially with regard to your assigning false motives and evil character to people.  If you can prove it, well and good, but if you are only saying things because you feel threatened by someone's viewpoint, you will be called on it.

I am still waiting for answers to some of the questions I posed to you a number of posts ago.  You said outrageous thing---which I called you on--- and then insulted me, and skulked away like a juvenile delinquent caught spray painting a profanity.  Instead, you should have had the courage and decency to set me straight and put me in my place.  You didn't do that at all, instead you insulted me.  You have done the same with others.  I am impressed, and not in a good way.

You spout off about how this should be healing, and loving, and your own posts are the most unloving and hurtful of all!  Everyone can see this, including you, but you simply ignore your last diatribe and move on to the next.

I think perhaps we shall find out what the real reason behind your rudeness is in due time, but in the mean time, I would like to see you show me the same courtesy I am showing you.  I even apologized to you, and you still failed to answer me.  If you think ignoring someone is mature, then you are mistaken.

Finally, why did you email Verne to have him talk to me?  Can't you email me yourself?  I noticed that you shared Verne's private email here with everyone, and now you want to triangulate with Verne to get me to do something.  this is manipulation, and is a cheap behavior that everyone in the Assembly is quite familiar with.  Never talk to the person directly that you want to control, never say anything out in the open, so others can hear what you say and to whom.  No, instead go behind someone's back and try to get someone else to enforce your will on someone else.  Sondra, I'll have you know that I don't take very kindly to this sort of thing.  It is a cowardly, manipulative practice, used most often by people with guilty consciences and impure motives.  Talking to third parties about personal issues with someone else, while never going directly to the person you have problems with is at best gossip, and is most often a form of libel and slander.  I am quite familiar with this.

By the way, if you think you have "gotten my goat,"  or pushed a button, think again.  I have proved more than a match for people who display far more intellect and skill at confusing the truth than you.  You don't even have the courage to answer a critic, let alone direct contact with a person you insult.  You are a behaving like a coward,  which is a usual trait of someone with a deep moral problem, or a very guilty conscience.  The fact that people like Verne even read your posts is a testimony to his courtesy and graciousness.  On the otherhand, your speech here has been brutish, rude, and entirely lacking in substance.  You are way out of your league, both in terms of courage and intellect.  Even so,  you are welcome, just don't suppose your views will be well received, when you share them is such a shoddy, mean and ill-advised manner.

It's open season Sondra,  other's who are far more qualified than you at the art of confusion and mystical spirituality, have not fared well here.  Then, there are those who started off like you, only to learn a thing or two, and then go on to teach all of us.  In those cases, they stopped the juvenile insults, and the tired old,  "where is the love " and actually began to use their brains!  We all benefited from this.  

So, what is it going to be?

Prov 19:29  Judgments are prepared for scoffers,  And beatings for the backs of  fools .

Prov 10:13  Wisdom is found on the lips of him who has understanding,  But a  rod  [is] for the back of him who is devoid of understanding.  14  Wise [people] store up knowledge,  But the mouth of the foolish [is] near destruction.

And my favorite:

Prov 26:3  A whip for the horse,  A bridle for the donkey,  And a  rod  for the fool's back.  4  Do not answer a fool according to his folly,  Lest you also be like him.  5  Answer a fool according to his folly,  Lest he be wise in his own eyes.

I, for one, am not going to listen to your confused speech any longer.  To do so only gives you the false impression that your contribution is actually helpful or stimulating in some way.  So far, you have only managed to try the patience of many of us, in much the same manner that a punk teases a man twice his size and strength.  Sooner or later, the better man's decency will give place to justice and a lesson will be taught to the contemptuous punk.  I will not answer you according to your folly.

I am turning up the heat on you, Sondra.

I shouldn't have said this stuff.  Instead of deleting it, I wanted everyone to see how I erred, as an example of how NOT to post.  I am in the wrong here.

Brent Tr0ckman  March 28, 2003

[wolverine]

So when we share the gospel with someone, THIS is an example of what God wants us to be?  Why would anyone become a Christian after reading this BB?  And THIS is what I am???

*Ooooh, you're so wonderful...you started a website that made some things happen!  Now you're the greatest thing since sliced bread!*

What a crock.

The circus continues...with the ringmaster attempting to bring down anyone who crosses him...unbelievable.

Fan

P.S.  Actually, who am I kidding???  That's what Mr. Geftakys did...I shouldn't be surprised...Assembly Part II...