So WHO Is Decieved???

[wolverine]

Verne,

You want to be found faithful?  That's absolutely wonderful!!!!  When are you gonna' put a little effort in achieving that?  Happy trails!!!  Hope everything goes well for you!!!  Just a little helpful encouragement...Have a great day!!!

[affirming]

only those who learn to subordinate their intellect to the life in the spirit will find nourishment.  otherwise we are as ravenous, hungry dogs - living on something that does not sustain life.  

when one studies the difference between intellect and godly wisdom (which if from above - the higher life in Christ) we find that wisdom is born of God - of incorruptable seed and is born out of LOVE (God's).  

those who do not subordinate their intellect (reasoning)also do not have control over their passions and lusts.  perhaps they are not sleeping around, but they are inflamed with lack of control over their temper and usually manifests in the flow of a dirty stream of pumped up, hurtful rhetoric.  

i will also say - i am not calling anyone a dog.  i feel the need to qualify my statements now - anticipating some of the defensiveness that most commonly insues.  i will admitt that i have been this kind of dog.  i know this kind of starvation that has, mainly in the past, drove me to be ravenous.  

the intellect does not nourish unless it is held in subordination to LOVE on the spirit side of our life.
 
Rom 8:2-4
2   For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3   For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4   That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  (KJV)

2 Cor 3:6   Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.  (KJV)

i do again apologize that i do not answer pointed questions that have been posed, but i often feel the greater urgency to stop the bleeding from an artery and let the splinter in the finger set for a little while.

the annointing is at stake here.  some are so quick to say that certain ones have, as saul, lost their annointing and didn't even know it.  it is truly a great danger.  those who say raca to a brother are truly putting themselves in danger of turn-over to  judgement by heavenly administrators.  i've been there too and believe me when i tell you that the word is true when it says that you don't get out right away just because you cry "uncle"  saul got away with quite alot, but lo and behold, he kept living in a spirit of murder until he got turned over to the judge.

how do we condemn others so vehemently and do the same things ourselves - i've done my share of this also.  it never ceases to amaze me how the Lord has allowed the same thing to manifest in my life that i was unreasonably condemning in the lives of other.  be careful, unless you have a melchezedek annointing, never-changing as known in Christ, you can be demoted and lose your annointing.

no, in answer to your question "whoever" - no i don't think i have this melchezedek preisthood annointing, and anybody who does would not say anyway.   no i'm not saying i think g. has.  i just read my bible and see that there are still vistas to attain to that are truly incredible.  it makes this place full of limitations seem like a place we could be leaving as we grow into where our Lord dwells - into a place of limitlessness and boundlessness in the spirit.
even these are subject to judgement by the grace of God and they cannot be restored through repentence as others are, but only have to suffer the fire of judgement to bring them around and purify.  

but brethren, at all costs, don't lose the annointing if you enjoy one.  how can you help anyone if you do.

[psalm51]

Dear Paul and Luke:
In my humble opinion, your impact on the BB has been one apparently designed only to defame, demean, and defile. My deepest condolences to your parents Tina and Jerry Robinson...
Verne

Dear Verne and all,
I know for a fact that  Paul and Luke have strong opinions, a sense of the absurd, and finely developed senses of humor...something I have personally experienced and enjoyed with Luke, in particular. Frankly, I take offense that anyone here would extend condolences to their parents. That sounds extremely condescending. Believe me, it is very easy to be critical of young people (and their parentage) when your own children are small and completely under your control. When your children begin to think for themselves and begin their journey into adult life albeit sometimes tripping and stumbling is when you will look back at your own short-sighted judgments of others and cringe. My own experience bears this out.  

In addition this BB has the unfortunate quality of making people who post seem fairly one-dimensional and I think that is one of the problems. Sarcasm, humor, and witty remarks lose something without facial expression, tone of voice, eye contact.  I am not saying that I agree with every word Paul or Luke have written or the tone in which it has been written, but do any of us agree with anyone here 100%?
I know we all have better things to do than read the jabs and jibes that have been prevalent on this thread. I would like to think that everyone here has enough maturity (whether young or old) to maintain some semblance of dignity and respect for the opinions of others without pulling out the swords.

It is much more helpful when we stick to issues and stop with the personal attacks and that does apply to young and old. If you must at the very least use IM so the rest of us don't have to wade through the barbs.
 

[Heide]

This morning I decided that I needed to start from the beginning and read through as to what this iniatially(sp) started at and where it seems to be going. The main thread that I see (aside from let's attack Brent)  is now that you've said your peace, move on. That is what I see from both Luke and Affirming.

Affirming, in one of your posts on March 25 you stated that I had fought a good fight (probably) and now it was time to go home. I was a good soldier. I know something about being a good soldier, I joined the USMC in 1990 and I learned how to be a good soldier. One thing we did get taught in the Marine Corps is that you never leave behind a fellow soldier. Maybe I am missing your point. Some of my friends are still in the assembly. My best friend that I grew up with since 6th grade is still involved with the Sacramento assembly. Do I just leave and go on my merry way? I think you and I have an issue as to what failthful means. When all of the assemblies are gone, I will go home and move on. When His people are free. Now I understand that Fullerton will be reuniting. My interest does not lie with them. They are making a choice to follow sin. My interests lie (sp) with some of the little sheep who haven't heard. Who don't have internet access.

Character slander, you first Affirming! Your March 25 post slewed mine. I didn't attack you under the belt but you did accuse me. My motivations are not visible to your eyes. If I am angry or bitter, does it make what I have to say any less viable?

I almost bought into what you were saying Luke and Affirming, about being soft and bringing people in lovingly. I was starting to think maybe I am being to tough and all the times in the assembly when I thought I was right at any cost. But Affirming, you taught me something that I had forgotten, assembly ways.

Luke, I hope you don't quit posting, I have enormous respect for you because as much as you endure on here at least you have courage to do it in your own name.

I believe we all have assembly doctrine in our heads and until it comes out our mouths or someone else points it out to us we will continue. Thank you Brent, you said something the other day on here that made me remember what I was taught in the assembly and how incorrect it was!

General question: How deceived are you? Do you believe that George was excommunicated due to sin or not?

Heide

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone!
  Impossible to keep up with all the conversation on this thread!  I spent a couple of hours last night just reading the posts!
  If anyone remembers, I started a little serial post re. "the Gospel; what is it", as I felt much of the problem re. "Who is Deceived", was an ignorance of basic Biblical teaching.  Thank you Arthur for your response.  The Scripture was very helpful in the understanding of my point.
  I would like to continue my thought by sharing an example of how we can continue in Assembly deception by not understanding how God communicates His truth to us.
  I was talking with a Bro. who had stepped down as a leader in the Assembly, but was seeking to see a new work raised up in place of the former Assembly.  He told me that he had repented of the past, and was trusting God would lead the group into a new future.  I asked him, "repented of what, and how would God lead them?"  Re. repentance, he mentioned authoritarian leadership, but that he was not so bad as the Fullerton Assembly. Re. God's leading, he felt that the Holy Spirit would guide them in the future.  I suggested he step away from teaching and seek instruction for a period of time; he could not accept this.  "Did I not believe that God could teach Him, and do a new work in their midst?"
  It is a false supposition to equate being instructed with the willing attitude for, "whatever God wants".  Cults use just such a method to support the concept that they are the one true church, for, they contend that they are sincere in their pursuit.  Mormons will suggest those who have doubts re. the Book of Mormon only pray and ask if the book is indeed of God.  Many Mormons base their faith on the experience they have had when taking this advice.  Many Mormons are very nice, sincere, hard working, and honest people; but they are decieved!  It is dangerous to seek an inner confirmation of the leading of God for one's decisions as this opens one to a plethora of possible deception. (please read: "Decision Making and The Will of God" by Gary Friesan, published by Multnomah press.)
  The Bro. above needs to have his mind renewed by the Word of God.  The Holy Spirit instructs in words to the mind and these form into a clear system of understanding ("pattern of sound doctrine"). Sound doctrine leads to sound practice, and vice versa.  He was previously indoctrinated into the Assembly system of understanding, which included a faulty means of interpretating scripture.  It takes time to unlearn these things and to learn a new way of thinking about Scripture.  There is nothing wrong with humbly accepting the process of the renewal of the mind.  To reject such an entreaty is a sign of pride, which the Lord resists and such an attitude smacks of the present evil mindset of the creator of the Assembly system, GG.
  Was Paul bitter and consumed with hatred because he publically rebuked Peter for not "walking in the Grace of God"?  The answer is of course not, and neither are those on this BB when they seek to entreat those in an attempt to correct their thinking and practice re. the Gospel of grace.
My next post will attempt to spell out Pauls concern and why he was so strident in his desire to pursue it with Peter and the Galatians.  It is very appropriate to our discussion re. the Assembly in our attempt to discern, "who is deceived?"
                          God Bless,  Mark

[affirming]

heide,

you know every time i read you - my heart just really feels for you.  i hear myself in your cries for your friends.  i, too,  left people behind.  i could not do a thing.  many of us left in a wave over a few years.  many of us have stayed in touch over these many years and have grown up together - experienceing post assy stress.  i love and care about you my sister and do not at all degrade or disrespect you.  you are a champion - you graduated.  now the only coarse is to find out God's strategy for helping others.

from my experience we must enter into the sweetness and the power of our Lord.  a spiritual battle is the only one that will deliver them.  i'm not saying "shut up"  all i have been saying is speak the truth in love.  and i've been saying that to continue to harp one man's character or lack thereof tends to pull everyone out of faith into reasoning and analysis - which has no power.

do not be mistaken, there are many more of us who have already left the assy and for good cause - threw it away like an old menstal cloth than there are of you who have just left.  and the ones i've spoken with are very concerned and contemplating how to help - but find it difficult to even come into the fray where there is such volitility.

[Heide]

Affirming,

A soldier who quits in the midst of the battle because he may think his battle his done usually gets a courtmartial. I have not rec'd my marching orders to move on. Believe me I ask everyday. I would like nothing more than to think these men have repented and all is well but the truth is they have not. The bottom line is that God will get them if they don't repent but does that help the families now? Most of the families want people to start talking, get this stuff out in the open. Only until the information is out in the light can we put it behind us. This ministry ripped apart families. I can attest to that in SLO. Perhaps your assembly history is different than ours, we had Gavid G to contend with.

How would you like me to handle this? You say speak out of love? Do you have a plan? I would like to hear it. Have I attacked George's character? If it is a sinly character.. YES.

In one of your previous posts you said that "I was hurt, they are bad because they hurt me.." Let's go one step further. They came in as servants, shepherds but they were wolves in sheeps clothing. They took instead of giving, they ripped apart instead of healing. They drove the little sheep over briars and rocks until the sheep were bloody and crippled. ALL in the name of George and this ministry.

You still avoid my question, was George excommunicated due to his sin or not? Why did you leave?

Heide

[4Him]

Hi Everyone!
...
...understanding how God communicates His truth to us.
..."Did I not believe that God could teach Him, and do a new work in their midst?"
  It is a false supposition to equate being instructed with the willing attitude for, "whatever God wants".  ...  It is dangerous to seek an inner confirmation of the leading of God for one's decisions as this opens one to a plethora of possible deception. ...
...  The Holy Spirit instructs in words to the mind and these form into a clear system of understanding ("pattern of sound doctrine"). Sound doctrine leads to sound practice, and vice versa.  ...previously indoctrinated into the Assembly system of understanding, which included a faulty means of interpretating scripture.  It takes time to unlearn these things and to learn a new way of thinking about Scripture.  ...
...
                          God Bless,  Mark

Mark,
Thanks for your insight.  This is exactly the direction we've (Arlene & I) been getting in the Bible church we've been attending frequently in recent weeks.  This church emphasizes simply receiving the clear words of Scripture without trying to read mystically into it, i.e., in assembly speak "getting the Lord's mind" or "getting peace about it".

As I see it, for practical purposes, that was walking by feelings rather than by faith.  I believe that this area, more than any other, is at the root of the error of "assembly" doctrine.  It personally and directly affects every single one of us who were/are involved.  In contrast, the problems with specific sin by George/David/etc. are not be personal to us all.  This also provides an explanation why those more deeply indoctrinated/committed have a much harder time pulling away and seeing their need.

Consequently, while some, such as Bluejay, David M., Eulaha, etc. undoubtedly have legitimate gripes, I think it's far more profitable to "harp" on issues involving perspective toward God and His Word than issues of the evil of men.  It is that area where the real damage has occurred and where healing needs to take place.

[Mark C.]

Hi Tim!
  I think your comments are correct re. the Assembly and the way they sought to convey "God's will" to the members.
   When discovery of God's will is approached through inner promptings one is open to deception and to being manipulated by those who claim to have special insight ("God showed me").
   Discovery of God's will should be liberating and blessed, for that is the revealed intention of the Gospel.  God's will is not to curse or control us, but to raise us up in his salvation.
  This is why we must contend earnestly for the truth of the Gospel, as it is our Magna Charta, Declaration of Independence, and our Bill of Rights!
   More later------------   God Bless,  Mark

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Verne,

Riiiiiight.  But thanks anyway.  

Your nice, little jabs are always a warm welcome to everyone on this site.  Wait, didn't Paul and I say something to you before???  Or were you away?

Your abusive behavior is quite becoming of a man at your age.  

But keep up the good work.  You have a part to play in this musical.

 



     

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Verne,

He who smelt it, dealt it.  

Also, as your secretary, I should inform you of everyone who phoned.  Maturity called twice, but you weren't in.  Next time, I'll take a message.

[editor]

Hell0o Everyone!

Thank you all for your gracious acceptance of my apology for my last few posts.

I came to the conclusion last night that I my contribution here is no longer edifying for the following reasons:

• I believe that God speaks to us in plain words, that must be understood with our minds first.  This is the work of the Holy Spirit
• I believe that people in the Assembly were quite deceived
• I believe that I learned a false gospel under George Geftakys
• I have concluded that the grace that was flowing to open people's eyes through this website has decreased dramatically
• The people I am trying to help are not being helped, and some have suggested that I am the problem, and the leader of a group of problems
• I have a nature and personality that is quite passionate.  I am not able to stand by and listen to things that I consider un-biblical, in a dangerous sense.  Therefore, I must speak out.  However, if something is causing me to "lose my annointing" as Affirming posted, my continued presence here is not healthy for anyone, including me

For these reasons, and a few others, I am going to take six weeks off the BB, in order to decide if I will do this anymore.  You see, I really do love all of you, and even though I may never meet some of you until we stand before the throne,  I identify with you as former followers of George Geftakys.  That is why this website had such stunning statistics, because all of us share a unique experience, that of having been in the Assembly.  

I don't want to irritate, confuse, or discourage anyone.  I only want some of you to see clearly, which I am sad to say, you do not.  Do not suppose I am saying this in a proud manner, as if I see, and no one else can.  No,  I am saying this as one who was formerly blind, even as some of you.  Hundreds of people agree with me in this respect, including most of the evangelical Christian world.  In spite of this,  if my message is blocked due to my pride, arrogance, lack of higher life, lack of love, or any other thing, I have become an ineffective servant.  Rather than hang on and make a mess of things, I think it best to step aside and let others' gifts come to the forefront.

Acts 18:6  But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook [his] garments and said to them, "Your blood [be] upon your [own] heads; I [am] clean. From now on I will go to the  Gentiles ."

You are welcome to deride me for including this verse at the end of my last post.  If I am losing my grip, and am become blind with pride, as has been suggested by 2 or 3---and perhaps as many as a dozen, according to one person---I need to hear from all of you what I have done wrong, in order that I do not continue.  I will check back over the next few days to make sure that I read all of your responses.  Please, no praise here, there is already a thread for that.

Brent

[affirming]

heide,  i was very good friends with david and judy.  they took me under their wing and were very sweet to me when i was going to terrible times.  i was at their house and hung out with judy when rachel was born. what a little cutie.  i only know what i've heard and read and i don't doubt that stuff is true, but what are you going to do to make people repent?  how do you do that and stay out of strife in your own heart?  aren't we better off leaving worry which is a part of our natural man that is not turning ALL THINGS over to God in full trust.  now, wait just a minute ok?  this is usually where people get wild and crazy on me.  i'm not leaving it as a black and white thing here.  "just trust God and let everything else take it's course, blah, blah, blah."  no, no but the first thing that has to be done is to put away worry and enter into His presence in trust and joy.... not just a little trust, but great confidence.

then i do believe it is very, very important to be as bold and fearless as a lion.  if you could know me and how i operate on a daily basis - you might think me to be awful in terms of my assertiveness in my business and my areas of stewardship.  if i hear the Lord on a thing, watch out---but i do not get out of LOVE in the spirit.  as a discipline i know the price i pay for getting out there in my own thoughts and attitude, defending myself, relating everything to myself, protecting people and things because they are my friends, my stuff, my business.  i try to use discipline on myself to open my grip on things, dispossess them and make sure i know that all that i have including myself belongs to my Lord.

i find that in that kind of trust and confidence (no worries allowed) God moves....usually much slower than i would like, but guess what He's not in a hurry and He really let's people have free agency.  

when lazurus was dying and his sisters were going nuts that the Lord wasn't coming to heal him.  it says, He waited.  that drove me crazy that He didn't come immediately and act.  but now i know that His priority is to let us come to an end of our own energy so that we will give up and learn to rely on Him.  now i try to do that first and i find there's great power in turning to Him early.  then we can hear His voice, if we will get quiet.  now wait a minute again - i'm anticipating being misunderstood - i don't imply verbal quietness as in keeping the wrongs secret.  i'm speaking of inner life quietness...no worries, no fear, no strife, subordinating reasoning and analyzation of things.  i could go on and on...but see how it starts getting quiet in the heart...

He says "let not your hearts be troubled"  heide, these are very precious things to me.  i've had to lose alot of blood to learn some of these secrets.  God has ways of doing things if we can learn to get deep into Him.  

in the assy we are used to not having prayer answered for example.  one year, long after i left the assy, i realized there were believers who had their prayers answered in miracles and fast.  i really got upset with the Lord on it.  then He began to teach me that i will never get big and fast answers to my prayers.  He intimated to me that unless i could hear Him that He could not hear me because prayer is a symotaneous event.  it's not like verbal conversation.  in the spirit realm we're speaking together. i started studying how to hear His voice as spoken in Hebrews for example.  i don't know if i've helped you, but these are things that i live on.  my life has gone from utter despair to joy.  

again, i do care very much about your breaking heart and i will stand for you and your friends in prayer.  will you kind of tell me who i need to pray for?  not names just give some hints like 2 young families, 2 single guys, etc. just the ones that are upon your heart...or however you want to do it.  it would help me to bring them before the Lord and heaven.

[affirming]

heide,

"You still avoid my question, was George excommunicated due to his sin or not? Why did you leave?"

i just realized i didn't answer two of your questions that you've asked twice.  i haven't answered quite afew because i've been sick with bronchitis for about 3 weeks now and haven't had alot of energy.  not that i have alot to work with otherwise, but part of my problem as of late has been the medication i've been on makes me a little grogy and spacey.  like i said - i'm not all that sharp to begin with.

i did not intensionally avoid answering your question.  was g. ex'd due to his sin or not?  i don't know.  i haven't been envolved in any of the assy gov't stuff - but have been filled in by some friends on some things.  this is the best i can do i'm afraid with that question.  i will tell you this that i have seen enough of the sinner in me that i would not be shocked if you told me that a man fell into sin - if he was beating the sheep... if he was condemning behavior of other people's children with cruelty and excusing and indulging his son's.  as i have mentioned i have condemned others and criticized others and turn around and fall flat on my face.  i have destoyed the annoiinting in my life because of pride, lack of compassion and many other things that i have alluded to.  once we lose the annointing of His presence - we lose grace and sin insues.  but is a merciful God if and when we will turn and change.  i do not think groveling is necessary, but we must get things right with God and show fruit of repentence.  i know that some get down and grovel...but the main thing is that it has to be visible that there is a difference and that there is an openness toward suggestions of the brethren.  g. will need to not stand aloof....but neither should people chew him to death if he is trying to make things right.  

why did i leave?  i am needing to lay down, but i would really like to answer you.  could i come back tomorrow?

                                             sondra (quinlan) jamison
 

[Sebastian Andrew]

Consequently, while some, such as Bluejay, David M., Eulaha, etc. undoubtedly have legitimate gripes, I think it's far more profitable to "harp" on issues involving perspective toward God and His Word than issues of the evil of men.  It is that area where the real damage has occurred and where healing needs to take place.

It seems to me that it took the shock of the personal sins of the Geftakys family-esp. George-to awaken many to the other problems such as the doctrine, etc.
 Real damage HAS occurred at the psychological level and healing DOES need to take place there. I don't think that it is either/or but both and. Perhaps Mr. Souther cd. expand on it a little as he has time.