So WHO Is Decieved???

[Mark C.]

Dear Paul,
  You are certainly not hated by me, nor have I missed the fun loving nature of your posts.  There is a time and place to enjoy the "combatative" nature that is found in the youthful male personality.  God has made us guys this way for a reason, and it is a basic survival skill that gives us this competitive desire.
  Many of us see the possibilities of communication here as opportunity for serious discussion that results in helpful insight and application to our lives.
   Back in the Assembly, as a leading Bro., I would sometimes raise questions at the dinner devotional.  I would ask the Bros. why they believed a particular teaching that GG promoted.  I was usually met with silence, as there seemed little interest in really understanding the why, what, and where re. what we were being taught.
   I also remember a seminar and an incident with your Father.  The Seminar was called "The Fountain Of Life", and had to do with I: John.  Your Dad led our discussion group after one of the messages.  We were all stunned at the implications of what GG was saying, as the message seemed to support a modified form of perfectionism.  To your Father's credit he did not give glib answers that were politically correct, but answered that he also was confused.  We knew enough at the time not to question GG, and assumed that our lack of understanding was our fault.
   This process of Noble Inquiry, that was squelched in the Assembly, is very important to develop in the minds of God's people.  Thinking through what we believe, and why we believe it, is crucial to a healthy Christian life.  There will not be growth in our life with Christ if we do not have this serious discussion.
   In conclusion, this BB should not be where we seek mastery of one another in debate, but a place to try and challenge one another to think through what we believe, and why we believe it.  The challenges can be pointed and disagreement strong, but always with a willingness to accept entreaty as possibly being God's knock on our door.
   I would like to persuade as many as I can to use the wonderful opportunity we have here on this BB.  I have been on many other BB's over the past 10 years that have dealt with cult/abusive church recovery issues.
 
      First: This BB is exclusively on the Assembly; most of the other sites never heard of the place.

      Second: There is a strong Evangelical Christian presence on this site.  On many of the other sites the people were not open to appeal on the basis of the Bible.  My continual attempts to reach recovering cultists with the message of the Gospel were largely ridiculed.  There were a few successes and this encouraged me.

   Both of the above reasons lead me to believe there can be some real positive help for one another here.  Please check out the introduction on the Geftakys.com home page that Steve and Margaret have given us.  I am exicited about the new possibilites there as well, and trust that the Lord is not done using this wonderful forum that Brent started.
                              God Bless,  Mark

[affirming]

heide,

i appreciate your frustration, but i get a little frustrated with people who try to get others inflamed and to take up an offence.  if i can't become more clear and find common ground in this post, i think i will assume that we just don't see eye to eye on much at all.  i think i like you, but i reserve the right to let you be different.

i wasn't there when this sin that you speak of took place, i haven't spoken to the sisters who supposedly had sexual relationships with g.  alot has been said that i am not going to just buy into easily.  as i do not sit here in my comfortable living room and criticize how the leaders are taking the war - i am supposing that when brethren dealt with the sin at hand that they acted fairly...but then many have also condemned the and accused the same brethren who x'd g of having poor judgment and lack in wisdom and many other things.    i have, however, said that if these reports are true with regard to immorality - then the actions against him were just.  beyond this - no - you're right - i won't take it any further.  

this perspective may seem like a character flaw to you, but if you were a friend of mine you would enjoy that i let you be a big sinner and make some big mistakes and would try to help you to do better, pray for you, forgive you and eventually thought - if you kept on and on with it - i would distance myself from you.  ok?

please don't mistake my peace for the absence of care for the Lord's sheep and the lambs.  i care very much...but i am not a soldier type...i am a faith type.  i laid down a militant approach to unjustices years ago.   i understand that God uses men and women to deliver others somewhat, but not all are called to do the same things.  where you may be called to be more hands-on others may be in a place of prayer and intercession.  all aren't on the front lines, some are envolved in support, etc.  sometimes i get the impression that some feel that God is an inept old man who sits by idly and let's people really hurt His people.  like i've expressed before, i think i understand that God waits sometimes for us to get enough that we begin to see it and get up and walk out on our own two feet.  it's time for some to grow a backbone and they will not get a deliverence until they decide that they had better make a decision on the things that others have been trying to help them to see.  all beyond this, in my opinion, just pulls the rest of out of peace.  does that do us any good?  no, in fact, then we can't hear the Lord's voice because we are all worried, out of faith, upset, distracted, frustrated, hurt, strife, and on and on.....

i've seen really impossible situations handled through faith and confidence in God.  people who have lost a child, people who's children were molested by a parent, people who have developed mental illness, people who have been betrayed in excruciating ways, etc.  the injustice at hand is a heavy cross...but crosses have to be carried for awhile and then it gets worse doesn't it before it gets better.

Prov 14:29  He that is slow to wrath is of great understanding: but he that is hasty of spirit exalteth folly.

Prov 16:32  He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.

Nahum 1:3  The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Nahum 1:6  Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

[Arthur]

Dear all,

I fully admit that I am an instigator...Most of what I post is tongue-in-cheek...I know I am fully hated on this BB and the more hatred that was shown to me, the more fun posting became...It's like trying to put out a fire with gasoline...But its all becoming ridiculous...and Brent is taking 6 weeks off...
So, I know a huge celebration will ensue, but if Brent takes 6 weeks off, I am taking 6 weeks off also...I respect him and desire to join him in letting the BB simmer down a bit...I am not affended at all by any posts here and if anyone here has been offended by me here I ask that they would email me or private message me...And if you have read this far without stopping to celebrate, I thank you...I am honored...
 

Paul

I'm glad you are showing signs of good-naturedness now.
But you cannot, with impunity, throw out spiteful comments and then pull back and say it was all tounge-in-cheek?  No, that isn't right.  It seems to me that both you and your brother owe some folks an apology.

[affirming]

arthur, with all due respect i think paul's apology was just that - an apology.  can you give a young man a little room to be a man?  he also extended an invite to anyone who he had offended to email him, i assumed, so that he could work the offence out one on one.

groveling is not necessary.  would you agree?

[Matt]

I'm glad you are showing signs of good-naturedness now.
But you cannot, with impunity, throw out spiteful comments and then pull back and say it was all tounge-in-cheek?  No, that isn't right.  It seems to me that both you and your brother owe some folks an apology.  

I agree with Affirming. The guy apologized...do you want him to now kiss your feet? I think you should be embarrased, really. To be honest, I don't think that he has much to apologize for. People our age had an incredible amount of control exerted on our lives during our time in the assembly, especially by those older than us. And it sounds like he grew up in the assembly...so is it any surprise that his posts are less than cheerful toward the older members of the assembly? I think that you need to apologize to everyone, really, for existing. Let's see you and Vernecarty repent.

[brian]

I think that you need to apologize to everyone, really, for existing.

c'mon... these are the kinds of comments we can all do without. really, lets not argue about punishments and apologies. private email is a great way to sort out personal differences without the added stress of having a public image at stake. public apologies can sometimes help restore peace, but calling for them rarely does.

btw, to use the quote feature you can start by hitting the Quote button on a post, which put the word 'quote' in brackets (ie [ ]) before and after the entire text of the message you are quoting in your reply. if you look at the ending brackets, the word 'quote' is preceeded by a '/' like this: (opening bracket)/quote(closing bracket) - this is a sign for the quote to end. so for multiple quotes in a single message, you have to keep typing (opening bracket)quote(closing bracket) in front of the text you want to quote, and (opening bracket)/quote(closing bracket) after the text you want to quote, which will put it in a box, like so:

testing ..1..2..3

if those who were asking about how to do this are still having problems, feel free to message me about it.

[affirming]

verne,

please give me a minute here.  i would rather not use lots and lots of scripture to nail down every point i make.  i'll tell you why.  one reason is that generally someone will search in their bag and find a conflicting scripture.  that game can go on and on.   secondly, as has already been said in several different ways - scriptures have been mistaught, misunderstood, misused, etc. to the extent that it gets a little crazy trying to support points of belief with "a scripture" thirdly - several years ago i learned to study consistent principles that worked for all scripture - letting the letter of the law in all it's different jot and tittles form the generally accepted principle(s).  

having said all of that, verne, i don't mean this mean, but i am no longer willing to answer your posts because i feel you have been unwilling to stop when brethren (myself included)  were asking you and begging you to stop with the sharp insults.  not until the bb police came in were you willing to stop.  you were not easily entreatable, but a railer.  if you can't hear an admonition from a common brother or sister - i really don't want to submit myself to your questions.  once my heart turns cold toward a person because i've lost respect for their methods - it's difficult for me to respond in any other way.  

if the moderator, brian, wants to call me down for this or kick me off - so be it.  i'm getting pretty tired anyway.

[Mark C.]

Hi ALL!
  I read Sondra's reply to Verne re. using Scripture and would like to make a lengthy reply as it is crucial to a healthy life with Christ, but I must get out the door.
   I would like to suggest that interested parties should take the recommendation on the Geftakys.com home page re. the book, "How to Read The Bible For All It's Worth."
   Part of the problem of our Assembly instruction was the way the Word Of God was interpreted and applied, but that does not mean there are no means of understanding and applying texts.
   The Gospel and the Christian life are designed to be very simple; indeed it was that simplicity that Paul sought to defend in the church.  One way Satan has used to entice his people away from that simplicity is by means of esoteric knowledege.  The mystical method finds a meaning behind the meaning through inner intuition.  This was the error of the Gnostics, and one the early church had a big fight with.
   Yes, a big argument!  I make a big deal out of it because it is very dangerous to go down that road.  GG used a mixture of the above error in his view which allowed him to make the Bible say what he wanted.
   I'm aware that proof-texting Bible debate can take verses out of context, but that doesn't mean the Bible doesn't instruct us in propositional truth.  Again, none of us have ascended to a higher plane where we can claim that we are beyond entreaty.  Refusal to be entreated automatically places us with those whose wisdom does not descend from above.
    Got to go!                 God Bless,  Mark

[MGov]

Dear affirming,

My understanding of the purpose of this BB is to expose the error of the Geftakys ministry so that we all may repent.

REV 2:5 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-- unless you repent.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be on a "yes but..." track.  What you say may be valid(to a certain extent), however it brings confusion when you are not on the same track.

Albeit, I agree that some of the saints posting here appear to be adamant, but if you overlook their tone and stick to the topic, you will be able to communicate on the same wavelength.  Remember that you cannot always accurately determine the attitude of the saint posting(since you cannot see/hear them in person).

[vernecarty]

One of the great illustrations of the importance of Scripture in keeping us from error, is this most fanciful of George's flights during the waning days of his 'Apostleship". It is fully documented that George Geftakys was teaching, in clear contradiction of the plain teaching of Scripture, that man was created not on on the sixth, but the seventh day of the Genesis record. According to him, one needed "special insight" to see this, never mind what the text plainly says.
Imagine for a moment, a room filled with Elders and leading brothers sitting listening to this tripe and no one making a move to drag him (all-beit kicking and screaming) from the pulpit.
As a matter of fact, several eyewitness reported that some of these leaders were starting to nod their heads sagely and affirm - " I am beginning to see it...!"
How does this sort of thing happen? You may be certain in does not happen overnight. The brothers around George were not all imbeciles. George had methodically over the years perverted and polluted the thinking of his hearers with the notion that he had some kind of special "insight" (read "heavenly vision") that permitted him to assign other than the plain meaning of the text, to over-spiritualise the text, and as in this instance to outright contradict the text.  As he would often gleefuly exclaim: IT IS BETTER FELT THAN TELL'T!
Absolute Hogwash!
A  scriptural basis for all we assert is of critical importance. It is our only reliable way to be kept from deception.
Verne

[al Hartman]

     Well said, Mark & McGov!  Thank you both...
...................................................................

Dear Saints,

     i have been avidly following this thread ever since withdrawing from posting here because my posts were drawing a lot of flak from people who couldn't (or wouldn't) grasp my point and who found it more convenient to brand me a disrupter and tool of the enemy than to try to know and understand me, and have discourse with me.  Some of that has been resolved via personal emails, for which i am grateful and give God the glory.  i hope to see the rest resolved soon, God willing.
...................................................................

     As to the current discussion, our ONLY safety is in fully trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ who saved us, to also keep us, according to his promises to us.  The focal point here is:  ACCORDING TO HIS PROMISES!
     We cannot know what God has done on our behalf and what he has promised us and provided to us, unless we know what he has said.  Wonderfully, we have a written record!  It is ALL in the Bible...

     It is not my point here to say that we are all to come to the same perfect and all-inclusive understanding of every point of doctrine.  That will not happen in this life.  We are not so constructed that we could contain, understand, and exercise the fulness of God's knowledge in our present form (even though he has opened it all to us).  "For now we see through a glass, darkly;  but then face to face:  now I know in part;  but then I shall know even as I also am known."  
1 Cor. 13:12
     
     The key to living in Christ is the very same as the key to being initially saved from sin, and all we need to know and understand about either IS IN THE BIBLE.  Do my statements seem contradictory?  i can understand that they might, more to some than to others, depending upon where you have been and what you have experienced.

     EVERYTHING about the Christian life depends upon our having an active living relationship with Jesus Christ himself, not just reading a (even THE) book.
     BUT, that relationship will NEVER exceed what is verifiable through the scriptures!
     Is our bible, any bible, a guaranteed fully accurate word-for-word account of all God's thoughts, and are you and i empowered to fully grasp all that?  Assuredly not.  But there is nothing that we need to know that we cannot find in the bible.  THERE IS NO EXTERNAL SOURCE TO US FOR SPIRITUAL TRUTH!

     Cannot God speak to us, cannot Christ make his mind known to us, cannot we sense and know his leading of us without first reading about it?  Of course we can, and we should hope to more and more as we grow in grace and in the knowledge of him.
     BUT whatever he tells us, shows us, leads us into WILL BE VERIFIABLE THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES.  That is why we are told, "STUDY to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2Tim.2:15

     Is the almighty God, creator of heaven and earth and all that is in them, confined to the pages of a book?  NO.
     BUT he has given us, between the covers of that book, access to all the knowledge we need to successfully walk with him in this lifetime.  The BIBLE:  our only contact with God? NO!  We will find him in books by godly men and women, and in the songs they have written;  in the fellowship of the saints, and services of worship, prayer, and ministry to his people;  even in the wonders of the natural world...  But, in none of these will our knowledge of him EXCEED the range of scripture.  THE BIBLE IS OUR FAIL-SAFE, OUR TOUCHSTONE.

     We are not all equally equipped to divide the words of scripture.  So, while we look to those who are teachers, we must pray avidly for understanding of what we are told, and for discernment of right teaching from wrong teaching.  He is faithful to answer such prayer and to deliver us from all unrighteousness.
     And those who ARE teachers have the great responsibility to be humble before God, not reveling in the greatness of their gift, but being grateful to the Lord for allowing them to serve in such a manner.  They must be kind, loving and gentle;  able and willing to help the weak and wounded;  not confusing the misled with the devil who misleads them.

Bless you all, my dear Family,
al Hartman

[Heide]

Sondra: I am still alittle confused by your postings, are you actually stepping up to the plate and saying, even though you weren't there, you believe the elders had reason to excommunicate George for being in sin and unwilling to repent? My frustration comes from your posts because I can't figure out where you are.... Why did you leave?

Verne: Why did they send the money in aluminium foil?

Heide

I might not agree with what you are saying but that doesn't mean that I want you to leave. A public forum is all about hearing someone else's perspective. Some of you guys have more puzzle pieces so it is interesting to me to hear what you have to say. Welcome Back, Al!~

[vernecarty]

Some six years after I had left the group in Champaign, I ran into George and Wayne Matthews in a local restaurant thtat was a very popular place for breakfast. Strangely enough, initially I did not realize it was George with Wayne and I went up and joyfully greeted Wayne (who has been nothing less than a model of Christian integrity to me.)
When I realized it was George sitting with him, I also greeted him -  "Hello brother, how are you?"
He looked at me and fired back " Verne! Are you walking with the Lord?"
I had the strongest urge to fire right back- " Are you??" (little did I know...!)
Of course you don't talk to George like that...I simply said "Oh yes, my family and I are in joyful fellowship in a local Christian and Missionary Alliance Church where I have the privelege of serving Him"
First he quizzed me to see if I knew anyting about A.B. Simpson and I initiallly played along and hinted that I knew the work started among the social rejects of New York. He kept trying to get me to say A.B. Simpson's name but I just smiled and asked "Why are you testing me?"
Finally, he started in on the Alliance, about how they had lost their vision and how the churches were so confused etc. etc. The next thing I expected him to say was that A.W. Tozer was a heretic!
I recall this incident to illustrate that there was something deliberate and pre-meditated about the destructiveness of George Geftakys. It was his constant aim to undermine the faith of others and convince them they could never be used of the Lord apart from his blessing and sanction.
Was George deceived? I think not. The word has a certain suggestion of victimhood. I believe this man purposefully embarked on a voyage of deep wickedness from the outset. He himself practiced the high art of deception and manipulation with a finesse that is breath-taking. On this very thread, we still have adherents contending that "He is the Lord's servant." Who is deceived? I am afraid many of his victims still are...George was a Master Deceiver...!
Verne

[al Hartman]

Beloved,

     With some there seems to be a major issue over whether George was born wicked (found by a witch, under a rock in the forest?) or became deceived as a youth or young man.  i met him in 1969 and, until recently i had thought that he was still OK in those early days of the Fullerton assembly.
     This BB and the GA website have brought to light memories of words, deeds and events that have illumined me to the fact that whatever is wrong with GG today had begun before i knew him.
     Born bad?  Led astray?  Demon possessed?  My greatest certainty is that, as Verne pointed out, George became (and still is) a master deceiver.

     Because it applies here, i share with you my earlier post from another thread:
----------------------------------------------------------

    Grace to you, and peace, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Wow!  i think Brian hit the nail on the head with the term "Institutionalized!"

    i want to share with you a part of my testimony that i haven't posted before:

    Most of the people now on the BB have no idea what the assembly in Fullerton was like in the 1970s.
    Almost everyone in the assembly was under 30, most in their early 20s.  All the children were very small.  Mat-training was a perfected art.  There were no problems of rebellion.  Everything was orderly.  The deception that this was the true picture on earth of the Bride of Christ was nearly perfect.  At least it was so much so that when a trace of reality appeared, we could sweep it under the edge of the rug and pretend it wasn't there.
    Looking back, i can see so many clues that we neglected.
Once, when GG was about to leave on one of his journeys, he had very strongly stressed a doctrinal point in ministry.  Upon his return, two or three months later, he strongly taught the exact opposite of what he had previously said.  Amongst a couple of the other LBs, i wondered aloud about it.  Mark Miller looked me in the eye and said "So what?!"  And that was that.
    That was how all inconsistencies were handled.  Occasionally a visitor or newcomer would dissent and leave, but the regulars accepted the party line unquestioningly.  We were as zombies:  we walked through all the appearances of normal people, but we had disconnected all of our warning lights.  
    We COULD HAVE seen that we were on a collision course with disaster, but we wore blinders.  Having eyes, we saw not;  having ears, we heard not.  We accepted utter weirdness as the status quo.

    i especially want to emphasize this to the saints who are leaders on the BB today:  
    Our experience in the 1970s was VERY different than what happened in later years.  As the assemblies and the work grew, there were many more people involved, who were of varying backgrounds and ages, with families of different inclinations and sizes.
    As the numbers increased, so did the variables, and thus the numbers of ways that things could slip out of hand.
    To those whose positions and fortunes depended upon consistency, this meant a necessity for more and harsher controls.  In the early years, we delighted in calling each other Brother and Sister-- later on it became mandatory.  Many things became mandatory that had once been considered privileges.  Practices and order that had once been maintained through a sort of idiotic trust became the subjects of strict and severe discipline.  Shepherds became Storm Troopers.

    Some, like my family, have been gone for over 20 years.  Many who have left recently had not even shown up when we had departed.  Some had not yet been born.  Our experiences are VERY different.  i stress this for a reason:

    i was brutalized, yes.  But i did not know it at the time!  When i left, it was because i was no longer fit for service.  
i was burnt out from trying to perform the responsibilities of a worker, LB, house leader, head of a family of six, and employment at a fulltime vocation.  i was exhausted and my health was deteriorated.  And i was cast off like a worn out shoe.
    My family and i were quarantined-- no one was permitted to have contact with us.  We left as failures to the Lord and to his work.  And we were sent every new issue of the T&T to remind us of our shortcomings.
    i wasn't bitter.  Know why?  Because everything about the assembly was right, and everything about me was wrong.  GG & co. were godly-- i was not.  Hey, i believed it!  For years!  i was unfit for Christian service anywhere.

    Did i indicate that there would be a point to all this?  Well here it is:  
    i (we) have had years to recover.  i only recently discovered how truly heinous the crimes against us were.  But to us they're ancient history!  We've had time to get over it, outgrow it, recovery from it.  Many of us never personally saw the Geftakys's & their cronies as evil people, because they were still in the closet when we left.  
    We never had reason to be angry.  We skipped that phase.  By the time we learned of something to be angry about, it was too late.  Those of you more recently harmed probably can't conceive of what i'm telling you.  Some among us still haven't realized that those wonderful people we were so devoted to following were gargoyles dressed as saints.

    So i'm asking you all, on behalf of all of us who are "different," be patient with us.  If someone pops up on the BB & pops off about your anger & hostility, tolerate us.  
i now understand the reason you are angry, and i respect your feelings.  But some of us still don't get it.  You can't understand why?  That's OK...  But try to accept us as we are--  we haven't all seen what you've seen;  felt what you've suffered.
    Some of us really do have peace in our hearts.  Don't resent us for that.  Continue, as you have, to reveal the truth to us, pray for us, and try to bear with us.  We're all in the same boat--  let's keep it a fellow-ship.

God grant us all that we may see
our next step in following him.

al Hartman

[MGov]

Al, Verne

Now that you have stated that George was 'evil' from the start where do those who were/are still in the GA system stand in light of God's word.

Some possibilities:
1. Throw out the baby with the bathwater.
2. REV 2:5 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-- unless you repent.
3. Don't put new wine in old wineskins.
4. A variety of the above depending on the assembly
5. other

MGov