So WHO Is Decieved???

[Sebastian Andrew]

my family and I are in joyful fellowship in a local Christian and Missionary Alliance Church where I have the privelege of serving Him"

About 10 years ago a friend sent to the Alliance pastor there a packet of info about the Assembly. He reasoned that an evangelical was the most likely  to come into contact with the Assembly bec. of outreach, and was surprised when this pastor had listened to George preach at the MW Seminar and also had a couple that left there to join up with the Assembly. Anyway, the pastor seemed to defend Geo/Assembly and seemed pretty suspicious of my friend. Have you heard of this and cd. you discuss what happened?

First he quizzed me to see if I knew anyting about A.B. Simpson....Finally, he started in on the Alliance, about how they had lost their vision and how the churches were so confused etc. etc. The next thing I expected him to say was that A.W. Tozer was a heretic! I recall this incident to illustrate that there was something deliberate and pre-meditated about the destructiveness of George Geftakys. It was his constant aim to undermine the faith of others and convince them they could never be used of the Lord apart from his blessing and sanction.
Was George deceived? I think not.. He himself practiced the high art of deception and manipulation with a finesse that is breath-taking.

I had a roommate that loved Christian books and read a lot of contemporary authors. Every time George arrived I would hear something negative on an author courtesy of George through my roommate. The late Walter Martin, Chuck Swindoll, John MacArthur, and a few others were some of the names mentioned. As I look back, I believe that my roommate ran these authors by George to show how well-read he was, and George, for the reason(s) that you mentioned, felt threatened and had to tear them down.

[Sebastian Andrew]

Verne,

Sorry about that. Yes I meant to address you esp. about the CMA pastor, etc.

[vernecarty]

About 10 years ago a friend sent to the Alliance pastor there a packet of info about the Assembly. He reasoned that an evangelical was the most likely  to come into contact with the Assembly bec. of outreach, and was surprised when this pastor had listened to George preach at the MW Seminar and also had a couple that left there to join up with the Assembly. Anyway, the pastor seemed to defend Geo/Assembly and seemed pretty suspicious of my friend. Have you heard of this and cd. you discuss what happened?

In my view, it is the nature of deception to not be entirely apparent at first glance. A first glance at George Gefakys resulted in many of us being duly impressed.  This is why I believe the Lord gives men of discernment to His church.
 The pastor in question certainly got a different viewpoint when I started attending that church and eventually became involved in leadership responsibilites and had occasion to share some of my own experiences.
This same pastor had served as many years as mentor to a couple involved in leadership in the Lombard Assembly (while the brother attended U of I) and spent much time trying to encourage them when the crisis broke. I do not know what his opinion  was ten years ago but I have no question as to where he stands today.
This raises another critical point. The men previously involved with George Geftakys (from the Bretheren assembly) were fully aware of what he was. Their silence all these years is inexplicable. I understand that one of the leading brothers from the Chicago assembly upbraided them recently for refusing to come forward with what they knew. While I have some sympathy for the leadership around George, the decades of them observing conduct from this man that so clearly departed from any Godly standard leaves them pretty much without excuse, the silence of the Bretheren leaders notwithstanding.

I had a roommate that loved Christian books and read a lot of contemporary authors. Every time George arrived I would hear something negative on an author courtesy of George through my roommate. The late Walter Martin, Chuck Swindoll, John MacArthur, and a few others were some of the names mentioned. As I look back, I believe that my roommate ran these authors by George to show how well-read he was, and George, for the reason(s) that you mentioned, felt threatened and had to tear them down.

The only Christian leader I ever heard George compliment was J. Vernon McGee. I do not know if this was only for my benefit as I was an avid fan...I loved the man dearly and everyone knew it. George's agenda did not allow for any peerage on the part of other Christian leaders. I remember how my theological cosmology was shocked into a new paradigm when I attended my first General Council of the C & M A. What a constellation of Godly men and women! I wondered..."Where have I been all these years?"
The missionaries and leaders I have met in the Alliance are men and women of true Christian nobility; I felt like I had been robbed blind...thank God He opened my blind eyes!!
Verne

[Andrea Denner]

Verne,

Please be careful when you are talking about us on here.   It seems that the facts that you have are usually about half right/half wrong.  I'm sure you are aware of the problem that was caused last month.

Also, are we included in your statement about those without excuse?    


Al,
I always thought that the assembly got better than it used to be.  Shepherds to Storm Troopers???  The assemblies were decidedly different in each place.  Yes, we were guilty of some things....but it was more like the brothers having too much outreach, one brother "encouraging" people to come to meetings and bothering people too much, not being good enough friends. not listening to concerns, etc.....

Andrea

[jackhutchinson]

Al,

I loved your last post.  It really clears up your position and sheds more light on the early days.  The increasing control was a result of growth (not a loss of goodness).  They had to grip ever tighter on our reigns to keep us in line.  You experienced what might be called the 'honeymoon' stage of the ministry.  The honeymoon was over by the time most of us got involved.

Thanks for your insight.

Jack

[al Hartman]

Hello everyone.  i'm still here, and it is my pleasure to report that our God is still on his throne!
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Dear MGov, i owe you an apology (or two).  It's my aging eyes--  they "c" things that aren't there.  Sorry.

     Re:  your question posted earlier today about where those still in the assemblies now stand in light of God's word:  My thinking is they're right where they've always been, each one directly before the Lord.  God saves us One-on-one.  It's an amazing but undeniable fact that what Christ did for the whole world, he did for YOU and for ME, as individuals.  And all that was accomplished by his victory over sin and death has been dispensed to EACH of us, that we may triumph IN THIS LIFE.  Those dear saints of whom you ask EACH has direct access to the throne of God, who has given to EACH his Son, his word: all his promises, his Holy Spirit.
     If your question is about the assemblies, the answer will vary with each location.  But God has not failed to provide for every need of each of his saints.
   BTW, i have NOT determined that GG "was evil from the start," but merely that he was heading in the wrong direction since before i met him, and never changed course.
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Verne, i don't really think you and i wonder "could this happen again?"  As much as the reality pains us to admit, we know it could, and it may.
     
     George was always diligent to sever relationships between his "parishioners" and any other spiritual leaders.  A wonderful, godly older couple from Costa Rica took up residence in the San Fernando Valley.  They accepted our invitation to attend worship in Fullerton, and George tried to sell them on his "heavenly vision," but they didn't buy it.
     They were going to meet with us in the valley weekly to teach us how to share the gospel with our latino neighbors, but as soon as GG found out, it was permanently cancelled.
     He was also very upset with me for spending a few moments in private discussion and prayer with Bakht Singh when he attended one of our all night prayer meetings.  He indicated that my concerns should have stayed within the assembly.  Probably the only thing that saved me from a real tirade was that GG was the one who invited and introduced Bakht Singh.

     i hope you'll read my post today on the "My True Issues With Tim Gefttakys" thread.
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Andrea,  Guilt?  i'm not sure what you think i'm saying.  Is there any doubt that the leadership in every assembly bears the responsibility for whatever has happened there?  The whole story varies from location to location, but some things were universally wrong.  Certain teachings and practices have been wrong for a long time.  Which leaders are guilty and which were deceived i don't know, as i am not familiar with most of the principals, and i haven't seen the few i do know for many years.
     The assemblies should have got better with time (in a perfect world), but they only got bigger & harder to manage.
The "Storm Trooper" tag belongs to a relative few, but there were many other not-quite-so-drastic wrongs committed.  Many were involved in the abuses.
     i may be totally unfamiliar with the situations you have seen.  The biggest weakness of the BB is trying to be "general" enough to speak to every situation in a single post.  It seldom works.  Feel free to email me or any of the others.
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Jack, You are apparently that fortunate person to whom my post actually spoke.  Enjoy it!  Next time the chances are that no matter what i say you won't get it.  Posting here is kinda like Russian Roulette, only the damage done here can be much greater.
     Yeah, for sure i was in on the assembly's honeymoon.  But i ended up with a divorce and no alimony or child support.
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     Thanks to you all for your responses.
i don't care what it meant when they said it to us in the assemblies--  REJOICE!!!  It is our birthright and privilege!!!

al Hartman

[BenBrad]

Do you want to know who is/was decieved?  It was George Geftakys.  You see, some years ago, George had an acute back problem and he got some perscription painkiller.  The Problem persisted and when it was time to get a refill of the painkiller pills, poor George took the bottle to a nearby Sav-on drugstore.  Unfortunately, the pharmacist there was REALLY tired and he accidentally refilled the bottle with VIAGRA.  Now Georgie didn't know this and when he took, what he thought, his painkiller medicine, he experienced some really wack side effects, including a soaring libido.  Well it wasn't long before he realized the poor Betty had nothing to give, and had he had to take his medicine two times a day, he was really suffering.  (By the way, George had realized the his "medicine" wasn't working and so he began to take ibuprophen.) Unfortunatley,  George got really desperate and,well, you know the rest.

[MGov]

Al, Verne

Now that you have stated that George was 'evil' from the start where do those who were/are still in the GA system stand in light of God's word.

Some possibilities:
1. Throw out the baby with the bathwater.
2. REV 2:5 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-- unless you repent.
3. Don't put new wine in old wineskins.
4. A variety of the above depending on the assembly
5. other
MGov

MGov:
In my own view, none, any or all of the above is inconsequential...what has greatly frustrated many of us is the intransigent denial (not a river in Egypt) by some, of what is as plain as the nose on their faces...one wonders, could this happen again...??!
Verne

Verne,

It may be inconsequential to you, but I wanted to know hence I asked because it is significant to me.
I understand your frustration over the denial of some.
Al has responded to my query.  I also appreciate your input.

God bless,
a sister in the Lord

[Andrea Denner]

Al,
Forgive me if it seems that I was not appreciative of your post and also if I was defensive.  Guilt?  I don't think that's it.  It just was in reading it that it struck me as different than conversations that I have had with ones over the years who had been in the assemblies (some who had already left)  for an extended period of time.  They would tell me how rigorous, how hard, how controlling it "used to be".  My point was not to say that there was nothing left of that.  I also realize that there were many places that were horrible (I think of the valley and SLO assemblies in particular, at least my limited knowledge of them).  Perhaps I was being defensive as to Joe being called a storm trooper.    I should have realized that your statement was a broad one and couldn't possibly encompass each and every situation.  Sorry about that.

Verne,
Again here I was being defensive.  Please forgive me.  It is hard to make statements on here without sounding harsh.  I certainly wasn't trying to be in attack mode.  It was just a plea.  I suppose I could have sent an email instead.  The details that you incorrectly state are really inconsequential and it is my own problem to have taken issue with it.  Sorry about that.  As to Joe speaking out....I'm assuming that you did not read his posts that he made in this forum, and are unaware of the stand that he took in other venues.  He has decidedly spoken on these matters.  (I am a defensive one, aren't I   )
On the misunderstanding....I should have personally emailed you...please forgive.

Andrea

[MGov]

Thanks Verne.
I appreciate your reply.

MG

[Heide]

For those of you still in the assemblies, remember one thing! It is scientifically impossible to pour new wine into old wineskins that have been patched. The assemblies are corrupt because they mirror an image which is corrupt. It is great thinking that since George is gone, now everything will be better. Unfortunately all of George's teachings still stand. Sheep need a shepherd, find one that is qualified. Every man who is a leading brother in an assembly is NOT qualified to be a shepherd. He was not called by God. He was called by George. If you say, "but my friends are in the assembly..." What will you say to God when He asks "Why did you stay in a place that was so dark" and you say "But my friends were there." Don't follow men. Follow God.

The basic bottom line here is that George was in sin and is unwilling to repent. Was he evil from the start? This is a man who brought home a woman when his children were small and was going to leave Betty for her. Documented by George's own son, David. This was before the assembly got started. Doesn't look like the pattern has changed much. Apparently is his own home, he was hitting on sisters. Yes, it is documented.  Is this the man you want to be associated with?

Wake up, this isn't a bad dream. It is a nightmare if you are still in an assembly. Verne pointed out the first quality is to be blameless.

Stick to the facts, George knew from the 70's what was going on between Dave & Judy and he did nothing. Is this the man you want to be associated with?

Have no doubts, George might never be seen from again but Tim is on the way... Might I remind you that the nut never falls to far away from the tree....

Heide

[Arlene]

Verne;
I was surprized to read your post where you said you never meet Bakht Singh.  I guess when he visited Tuscola it was before your assembly time.  I don't remember what he spoke on but I do remember he was encouraged with the wellcome he received in Tuscola.

[Mark Kisla]

I had the opportunity to hear Bakht Singh preach in Chicago. I got there 2 minutes before the mtg was to begin, Bakht Singh was in back standing by himself when I walked in, I thought he was some poor old Indian guy comming to hear the preaching and I asked Him 'if this guy will have anything good to say"?, he smiled walked up and started preaching. He was very simple.
It was a far cry from a grandiose Geftakys entry.

[Mark C.]

Hi All,
  I heard Bakht Singh speak each time he visited Fullerton.  It is interesting that the last 2 times he spoke his message was on the Church of Laodicea.  Mark Miller told me he could not understand why Bakht Singh kept on preaching that same message to the Assembly.  Mark believed Bakht Singh was confused, and thought that all American Churches were worldly, and so he just automatically preached the same message to every American audience.
   Christ's words seem to fit well here: "you say you see, therefore your sin remains."  God used Bakht Singh as one who was especially tuned to God's message for the church in our time.  It was too bad that he lost that gift on the few occasions he visited the Assembly .
                                  God Bless,  Mark

[al Hartman]

     i reckon Mark is into another week of truck driving, and i don't want to try to answer for him.  But by way of explanation in my own opinion:  
     Bakht Singh was not invited to the assemblies for the benefits of his ministry, but as a feather in GG's cap.  He could claim far and wide that "a great man of God is in fellowship with our assemblies."  It served as a powerful introduction in new situations.
     i believe that as Bakht Singh began to see that there was "trouble in paradise," he still accepted assembly invitations in hopes of warning some and encouraging some.  GG & co. ignored the message, but capitalized on the "big name," and if any of the saints were inspired to think outside the box, the gestapo, er, leadership acted quickly to squelch it.
     This may sound cold, but it is my opinion.  i don't remember a thing Bakht Singh said-- my recollection of him is of a kind, dear man who was glad to share his time with the least among us.

al Hartman