Anyone Seen Tim Gefneverpaidanytaxes???

[editor]

Bluejay is also an AK (ass'y kid), not born into it but brought to all the meetings by his mom, while his dad, who saw through it all, refused to come. Tim G. tried to turn him against his dad, who was also a believer. Ass'y kids are in a world of hurt.

Unfortunately, CAGirl is right, "We are the people who helped to hurt..." We all learned to be hurtful. As much as we may feel we have been delivered, healed, restored to our right minds, there yet remains in us a lot of the good ol' ass'y ways, as evidenced by recent threads over the last couple of months, even--not only the victim mentality, but also bludgeoning each other, forcefully imposing strong opinions on each other with verbosity, ridicule, ass'y-sounding spirituality, kissing up to strong personalities, etc.....

The "I know I'm right and I'm going to make you agree" stuff felt so good, even though we were ignorant of where the other person was coming from.  It's hard to have an adult conversation or debate when many of us revert so easily to being little kids in the school yard, one up, one down with each other. After all, that's the way we were coerced to live for so long it now seems normal. I know I'm like that, and it's one reason I don't post a lot here--my default position is "the authority", and it stinks, but once in a while I have to try to say something anyway.

I also want to apologize to CAGirl for my part in creating and supporting the system that devastated your life. I was wrong, wrong, wrong. I admire your guts, your honesty, your determination to deal with your own life. You go, girl, and don't let us drag you down.

I'm not sure what to say about this, but I can say a couple things with certainty.

I am in contacted fairly frequently by a number of AK's, some of them "high profile," some not.  This, in addition to the fairly large traffic of email I still get from ex-members and their families gives me a pretty good read on how this board is perceived by people who fit the descriptions of AK and ex-member/family member.

It isn't the strong personalities, or forceful imposing of strong opinions that turns people off here.  The fact is everyone can have a strong opinion here, and many of do.  What turns people off about this board is the victim mentality, and the constant rehashing and whining about the Assembly.

CAgirl called it poison, and it is.  It's a powerful poison for people who were hurt who are now healing and "getting on," with their lives.  Yes, it helps initially to get one's eyes wide open, and to understand and validate who and what we were all about in the Assemby.

However, once that is established that spiritual abuse did take place, and that we shared in it, there's not a whole lot of help past that.  It does no one any good to continually say, "I was a victim of an evil man." Yes, we all needed to recognize that, and a few still do, but the sooner we get past that the better off we will be.

Of course, people are pretty much free to post whatever they want here, which includes the ability to mock, ridicule, support, or even "kiss up" to whomever they wish.  That's what makes this so much different than the Assembly, which is what attracts people to the board.

What turns them off is the constant and victimization mentality expressed so often.  Another thing that seems to get under people's skin is the phoney spiritualality, which often expresses itself in when a sensitive, knowledgeable, mature person tells us how to think, feel, and post...in a manner that is Christlike of course.

THAT is what most gets my goat.

I don't know if she wants to do or not, but if CAgirl reads this, perhaps she would be willing to go into more detail about the "poison" she mentions in her post.  I am quite confident that many of the regular posters here are entirely blind to what she is saying.

Brent

[M2]

Margaret et al,

I would hope that both the strong and the not-so-strong personalities would feel free to voice their opinion.  I usually focus on content rather than tone.  I'm not about to tell people what tone to use or not to use unless of course people start posting lies.  I am also learning what discussions it is best to stay out of.

Unfortunately in the recent disagreement the one-who-was-supposedly-weak used their victim status against the one who was disagreeing with them.  (I am not talking about what was posted on this thread.)  This gave the victim an edge over the other and many rallying to feel sorry for them and thus missing the point of the discussion entirely.

Just my opinion,
Marcia

[summer007]

Margaret, People are venting here. CAGirl was right in the thick of it when things got heated up. Her post is just as venemous as Bluejays was from 2.3 years ago, they probibly have more in common then they realize Fruit of the Assembly. Also her parents took her to the meetings given by her Grandfather. This is no Geftakys Fan-Club I would think she knew that when she signed-on. The Leader's knew of the abuse why did'nt they have her father arrested 20 years ago? Your blanket statement that we helped perpetrate the hurt/abuse is wrong when most of us did'nt know about it, and left when we confronted leadership about things that violated our consciences. If it gets too Toxic here and it does many people check-out, its not for everyone. Summer

[vernecarty]

The Leader's knew of the abuse why did'nt they have her father arrested 20 years ago? Your blanket statement that we helped perpetrate the hurt/abuse is wrong when most of us did'nt know about it, and left when we confronted leadership about things that violated our consciences.

I have often wondered why the culpability that leadership bears for any kind of on-going abuse or misconduct taking place in a church setting has ever been a debatable issue. You are right Summer. Most of us did not know just how bad things were. I had dinner last night with an old friend who left the Champaign group years before I did.
Everytime I talk to people formerly in leadership or semi-leadership poisitions about some of the things going on behind the scenes I feel like throwing-up. The insiders all knew what was going on. I know some of them would like to make the case about their blissful ignorance but that is bull...
I try to stay away from this issue. The people who have moved me to the greatest fury duirng my tenure here, were not the former leaders, but those making excuses and alabis for the failure of assembly leadership. If those charged with leadership responsibilities are not willing to deal with renegade conduct in their ranks, who will? Some of these same enablers have had the unmitigated temerity to try and lecture me about the discharge of my own spiritual responsibilites. That kind of arrogance and presumption still royally pisses me of like you cannot possibly imagine.
I will never understand an attitude that makes excuses for this kind of thing...never!
Verne

[BAT]

Someone sent me a very thoughtful message in which they said, essentially:

"We must never forget, or sweep under the rug what happened, otherwise the revisionists will soon have people saying it never happened."  They indicated that the BB served as a sort of memorial, and reminder of what happened.

I do agree that there needs to be a permanent record of the abuses that went on, and a clear description of who George is and how the whole group supported him and failed to hold him responsible.  I think that RickRoss and GA.com served this purpose very well.

I don't think the BB does this well, because in its current form, it is "stuck" in an unhealthy pattern.

The best threads are the one's that have nothing to do with the Assembly, but that challenge thinking.  The current "Deeper Life" discussion is a prime example of what is good about the BB. 

What's good about the BB?

Freedom of speech and thought
Opportunity to discuss Assembly issues

Whats not good?

Keeping the wounds open, and encouraging victimhood.
Being told what to say, think and feel in order to be perceived as "Christian."  This aspect is basically what we endured in the Assembly, is it not?

I have no problem with disagreement.  In fact, I encourage it.  What I find amazing is how certain people fall back on the "It's not Christian" argument when they don't agree with something.  (Like welfare, etc.)

Here's a great example:

Throughout the "welfare" debate, in which I was increasingly viewed in a negative light, and another person was seen as a sweet, weak, persecuted christian...well behind the scenes there was plenty of "unsweet" things being said...not by me.

The coup de gra was being wished a "happy judgement day," by this person. 

That's a perfect example of a person getting their victimhood bolstered and using it as an asset and proof of spiritual superiority.  When we were in the Assembly, we were spiritually superior, weren't we?  Now, many of us see ourselves victims of abuse, but still spiritually superior.

In other words, George abused us, but we bear little or no responsibility for our involvement----certainly we are less responsible than the leaders!  Our advanced spirituality remains intact,  even as we continually remind ourselves how we were wronged.  The point is that if we were spiritually advanced, we would have left earlier and/or done more to expose George.  That didn't happen in most cases, but now that it's over, we sure can denounce George and the leaders....ad infinitum.

Nuff said.

Brent

[Joe Sperling]

Warning----sarcastic statement to follow--please do not take the comparison seriously, just the example:


I like the post below. I've often thought the same of the Holocaust survivors. Why don't they see that they "allowed" themselves to be rounded up and put into the camps? Why didn't they do anything when they could have? All they do is blame the leaders, those awful SS guys, and repeat those same stories of abuse over and over again. Boy, now that it's all over they can sure blame and berate those who were in authority.

Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, all they do is talk about Hitler and what a bad guy he was. "I was the victim of
an evil man" they like to repeat over and over again. Why didn't they get out of Germany when they had the chance? Don't they realize that everyone is viewing them as "whiners"? It's been 60 years for Pete's sake!! Why can't they just get "over it"? It's so darn unhealthy! If they want to
talk about the Holocaust go to the Holocaust Museum. Don't use any regular forum to talk about
it---it's annoying to those who don't really believe it happened, or  perhaps side with Hitler. They think they are so "elite" because of what they suffered in those camps. Why can't they be more spiritual, and realize it's all over now, and just stop their whining. If they had just been more spiritual in the first place they never would have gotten caught up in it . It's their own fault
for going through all of that abuse. They need to stop blaming the system and start blaming them-
selves. What a bunch of babies.


I have made a statement by blowing things way out of proportion(Nazi's vs. Assembly) in a
sarcastic attempt to get a point accross. If I am lambasted for it, that's OK. I probably deserve
it.

--Joe

[editor]

Warning----sarcastic statement to follow--please do not take the comparison seriously, just the example:


I like the post below. I've often thought the same of the Holocaust survivors. Why don't they see that they "allowed" themselves to be rounded up and put into the camps? Why didn't they do anything when they could have? All they do is blame the leaders, those awful SS guys, and repeat those same stories of abuse over and over again. Boy, now that it's all over they can sure blame and berate those who were in authority.

Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, all they do is talk about Hitler and what a bad guy he was. "I was the victim of
an evil man" they like to repeat over and over again. Why didn't they get out of Germany when they had the chance? Don't they realize that everyone is viewing them as "whiners"? It's been 60 years for Pete's sake!! Why can't they just get "over it"? It's so darn unhealthy! If they want to
talk about the Holocaust go to the Holocaust Museum. Don't use any regular forum to talk about
it---it's annoying to those who don't really believe it happened, or  perhaps side with Hitler. They think they are so "elite" because of what they suffered in those camps. Why can't they be more spiritual, and realize it's all over now, and just stop their whining. If they had just been more spiritual in the first place they never would have gotten caught up in it . It's their own fault
for going through all of that abuse. They need to stop blaming the system and start blaming them-
selves. What a bunch of babies.


I have made a statement by blowing things way out of proportion(Nazi's vs. Assembly) in a
sarcastic attempt to get a point accross. If I am lambasted for it, that's OK. I probably deserve
it.

--Joe

Not bad, not bad at all.

Should we ever forget the holocaust?  Never.

To make a subtle difference, let's compare the Holocaust survivors to a certain element of the black community in the US.  

The holocaust survivors went on to lead productive lives, and many of them helped to win Israel.  They were victims, and far from demanding a free ride from everyone, they made something from their lives.  I know a woman who was in Bergen Belsen, and have seen her tatoos.  There has been an attempt to unfreeze bank accounts, and have some art work returned, but all in all, the Jews have done well since the holocaust, but for the most part, they have not relied on their victim status as a means to gain.

Let's contrast that with the element of the black community that is pushing for reparations for slavery.  These people were born here, schooled here, and collected welfare here in the US.  While they may be subject to racist predjudice, they weren't slaves, and neither were their parents, yet they seek to inflate their victim status for personal gain.

I submit that the latter group is an example of an unhealthy victim.

Yes, remember the past.  But don't let your identity be defined and dictated by the past.  There is a future too, and I think that is more worthy of attention at times.

Here's another thought:

Do you know that 4 or five guards would make hundreds of Jews line up shoulder to shoulder in ranks, then have the first rank lie face down while a guard shot them in the head with a pistol?  The people stood by and obeyed, and watched this happen.

There are instances where the guard had to reload, or his gun jammed, and the people patiently waited for him to get squared away and resume excecuting them.  They didn't fight back, even though they had the guard totally outnumbered.  Think about that.

I can tell you this, if I have a choice between dying in a co-operative, prone position, or dying by fighting, I'm going to choose the latter.  Think about this.  It boggles the mind on many levels, not the least of which is spiritual.

Victims don't make good freedom fighters, neither do they defend themselves well.  They're victims, not victors.

I like the idea of a victor.  Victor's suffer, get into tight spots, even get set-backs and defeats...but they persevere and win in the end.  
Victims start out the same way, but give up and stay victims.

The Jews are not victims....while a certain element of the black population is making victim-hood a viable career.

So, you're not gettin  lambasted Joe.  I would rather see myself as a holocaust survivor, with a new nation, freshly won in a great victory.  My focus is on the future, and while I support holocaust memorials, and documentaries, I have a future to manage.

Brent

[M2]

Most analogies break down after a while.  But I do see the parallels that Joe is pointing out.

Re. victim status - should not be a forever thing.  Not good for the victim.
Re. remembering the holocaust - the Geftakys museum is the website www.geftakysassembly.com

Funny thing is that our assembly past is what makes our commonality on this BB.  Most, if not all, regular posters is a former member of a Geftakys assembly even if that person was only there for 3 years compared to my 20+.

A bunch of us former members were out the other day and, though we were not pre-occupied with our assembly past, we could have some good laughs about it.

All of my closest friendships are with former members, even though I have now found a good church and have good friendships with some of them.

Just some thoughts on the matter,
Marcia

[Joe Sperling]

Sondra---

The point I was trying to make(though I realize the Holocaust compared to the Assembly is
a HUGE leap and I could probably choose a lesser example of abuse) is:  Should we label any
klind of survivor with the "victim mentality" label? Holocaust survivors still speak of their ex-
periences 60 years after the fact. Why? Many of them are still alive, and very fruitful, but as
they tell their stories it's as if no time has passed at all---they well up with tears when recounting
what happened to them.

I am not saying we need to daily moan and relive these things over and over again. I just
feel that they will always be part of us. It is wrong to lead someone into self-retrospection
about the past so that they are continually the victim---but I feel it is also wrong to make
someone feel guilty for talking about the past abuse, and tell them they need to "get over
it". How do we know where they are emotionally? They may need to talk about it at this
point. And a forum may be the only place they have to go and talk to "live" people who
are posting. They can go to a museum(like the AB.com) and read stories, but they may
have a need to speak with people who have gone through what they are trying to get
past.  I notice that day by day there are always new members and guests--how do I know
what they are going through? Some of us have had the time to work through a lot of it--
but should I dissuade them from recounting the abuse they suffered? Perhaps they have
just worked up the nerve to post for the first time. I saw this happen just recently.

Next time I won't use the Hitler analogy--that was pretty far-flung.

--Joe

[Joe Sperling]

Brent---

Good points. I hadn't thought about the fact that some do use "victim" status
for gain--that indeed is very unhealthy. Good discussion.

Thanks,Joe

[editor]

Brent---

Good points. I hadn't thought about the fact that some do use "victim" status
for gain--that indeed is very unhealthy. Good discussion.

Thanks,Joe

Yes, it is a very good discussion.

There will always be another George, and another Assembly. 

Here's what I want to contribute to the fight against that sort of thing:

1.)Define the false teaching and abuse that goes on, and the sick dynamics that enable a person like George.
2.)Get people to face facts, and take action
3.)Expose and defeat the leaders who are doing this
4.)See people recover and heal
5.)Do what I can to see that it doesn't happen again within my sphere of influence.

This is NOT the message I want to send:

1,2,3 from above coupled with,  "You will never get over this.  You should be angry, distrustful, dissatisfied and bitter for the rest of your life.  Look at me!  Look how fixated I am on all of this.  Praise the Lord!"

I want to demonstrate that a person can come through it, learn, recover, and be a better person as a result.  I smile and laugh way more now than I used to.  Life is better now, so why should I continue to dwell on how bad it was?

More Beatles and politics, less George and Betty.

[summer007]

I think it's Great Joe is able to really laugh about the whole experience, its refreshing. There will always be people like GG who are counting on " a sucker born every minute" and "there's no fool like an old fool" . Yet we are all responsible for each person we invited out who stayed long after we left, who went astray. And for every dime we put into the box to finance GG's affairs and world travel. And God can and will forgive!  Summer p.s. Verne those brothers were trying to "Keep the Unity" and stay in one accord. (ha)

[Joe Sperling]

Brent---

You're right about that---we can never have enough of the Beatles--

It's gettin' better all the ti-i-ime.. better, better, bet-ter. getting so much
better all the time.

[vernecarty]

I'm going to make this a happy day for you, Verne.  I am leaving this board,
Sondra

Good to talk with you Sondra. Happy trails...
Verne

[M2]

Sondra,

I think most agree that the Jewish Holocaust as an analogy can only be taken so far; that is the nature of analogies.

While Verne's comments about leaders do sound like a broken record, they are valid IMO.

You said, "...I don't think people will heal who post here."
I disagree!!

You also said, "I am barely tolerated on this board because I represent change.  I share real, spiritual solutions and it is as if I hadn't said a word."
I am not sure all that you meant with that comment.  If you are referring to the lack of participation on topics you are discussing, then it is only because you prefer to have a focussed discussion.  As far as the discussion itself, it was repeated stated that we were enjoying the discussion.

Got to go.
Marcia