Why Luke Robinson May Become a Future Assembly Leader

[Amy Denny]

Oh, I just re-read my original post and Matt I think you may not have been paying attention to what was said. You made comment about Laurie's involvement. I was not addressing that. I was trying to share with her my experience with the futility of letting my anger get the better of me.
Anger is only destructive to the person who is angry. Following my leaving the group I got a precancerous condition right about in the pit of my stomach.
Some people may not see the connection but, I know it was because of my anger. Anger will eat a person from the inside out. I was not until I was able acknowlege and deal with much of my anger that I was able to fight my sickness.
I was attempting to gently share with Laurie to calm down a bit, because I would not wish anything like that to happen to her. We are not only spiritual beings but physical as well. I believe it is all connected. That's why prayer (a spiritual act) can affect the physical world.
I believe there are not only spiritual reasons but physical as well that God tells us to live a certain way. The greatest commandment is Love.

[Mark C.]

Hello All!
  Okay, I'm back and trying to figure out where to begin after reading all the posts since last weekend on this thread.  I promised a clarification of my last post and I think it will take more than a few to explain my thoughts.
  First, I have not gone over to the "dark side" and think that the Assembly was a wonderful place of light and life.  It was an abusive system established on the false teaching of GG and we must never lose our clarity re. this fact.
   I have been gone from the Assembly for 12 years and remember the group from my 20 years of involvement, through the eyes of my personal experience.  Since the raising up of the website, and the reading of more recent testimonies, I noticed in some ways things actually were worse than I remembered.
 One of the things that Luke and Matt  posts' helped me to see is that some of the gatherings were not walking in lock-step with GG and that they resisted the implementation of the full GG abusive system.  Now, I'm fully aware that GG laid the foundation of these groups and his poisonous teaching/practices had an influence on the members.            
    Those members who refuse to honestly evaluate the past influence of GG in their lives and to compare it to orthodox Christian teaching/practice are indeed in a dangerous place, but I do not think we should question the "sincerity" of those who post thoughts that reflect the only kind of Christian instruction they have had.  Notice the use of the word "sincerity", in re. to what we question, vs. the examination of teaching/practice as the operative word for our consideration.
  This brings me to my central discovery which is that I assigned motives to those that I felt were posting  Assembly influenced concepts.  The area of motive is God's alone and it is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict the conscience and to bring renewal of thought.  We are to follow the guide of Gal. 6, as we seek to restore a fallen one, and to do so with humility.
 It is totally understandable that there are those who will have strong emotional reactions to those that are defending concepts that they found destructive to their own lives.  I will not tell these individuals how to feel or that they should not be angry; such "advice" is counter productive.  I need to explain this and will do so later this weekend.
                                       God Bless,  Mark    

[Mark C.]

My explanation cont.---
   I noticed that some have complained re. Laurie's posts that mention "suicide".  There is a button called "notify" for those who violate the terms of their involvement on the BB and by pushing it Brian is alerted and can take action.  All posters should remember that this kind of violent hate speech (even in jest) is not allowed and is cause for suspension.  We can have passionate debate here, but please refrain from the above kind of suggestions that one "hurt themselves".
  Anger is a topic that can be a confusing Biblical study.  We see Jesus teaching that we are to love our enemies and yet we see Him getting very angry at the Pharisees, etc.  We see Paul listing anger with other sins and yet see him getting angry with the Galatians, etc.  Is this a contradiction in the Bible, or the need for clarity in our own thinking re. the teaching re. anger?  I think the latter.
  I believe that the key in understanding the difference between the "sin" of anger and "righteous" indignation is in the discernment of what motivates the emotion.  When we see an injustice and are passive this is not Christian restraint of "sinful" anger.  When we lash out in hurt and seek to inflict damage on others (be it emotional or physical) we are responding with the fleshly kind of anger.  This last kind of anger does not work the righteousness of God and begs the question does the first kind of anger then work God's justice?
  The discernment of good and evil is not a wholly cognitive experience.  The conscience is both intellectual and emotive and there is an inseperable union of these two.  If we are insensitive to evil around us, and do not have a sense of revulsion and rejection of it, how dwells the love of God in us?
  The problem with us regular ol' sinners saved by grace types is that we will have a mixture of both of these two natures in us.  By self introspection we will be unable to analyze and control the evil, or to actualize the correct responses; mortification of the flesh is only "through the Spirit".  The above realization is the foundation of a life of grace with Christ and with others.
  Paul urged the Corinthians not to judge one another and that he would not even judge himself.  I take that to mean, in the context of our discussion, that we are often not wise enough to discern the purity of the motives of the angry poster.
 In the Assembly the teaching and exhortation was aimed directly at the questioning of our motives.  Any aspiration, even for service of God, was shot down with the admonition to look within and see if one's motives were pure in the matter.  Of course, none of us have perfectly pure motives and the poor honest Saint would descend into the depression of hope denied.
  To those coming from this above experience (in some cases 30 years of it!) there needs to be a process of learning the confidence of walking in grace vs. the shame based system of self suppression.  This will mean learning that having an ego is not bad and when Jesus talked of death to self he was not talking about loathing one's person, but of one's sinful nature.
  In the false holiness system described above we are taught that we are defective as persons and deserve punishment because we "are" bad.  To recover from this "self" needs to re-emerge and gain confidence in the fact that we "are" loved.  We also need to understand how the false system tricked us into unhealthy suppression of normal human emotions.
  To tell someone who is emerging from such experiences as above to control their emotion is like shaking up a coke can, popping the lid, and then trying to contain the contents!  To ask them to try and analyze if their anger is just or sinful is to try to control them again by the same system that damaged them in the first place.
  The answer that we must try and steer their anger to an appropriate response sounds like a worthy goal, but can only be accomplished by the Holy Spirit in our lives.  Remember, it is only the Spirit that can render the flesh inoperative and bring to fruit Love, joy, peace, self control, etc.  We must be confident in the ability of God to shepherd the hearts of His Children, or we could fall into the same error of our Assembly past of standing between God and the individual believer. (there is only one mediator between God and man)
  In reading the posts of Luke and Matt I not only sensed God doing the above work in their hearts, but his gentle remonstrance in my own soul as well.  They apologized and showed vulnerability in confessing their faults.  I see this as God's work of grace as it begot graciousness toward others.  
  I hope this helps in explaining my position and I welcome clarification/questions re. same.
                                God Bless,  Mark  

[Kimberley Tobin]

Hi, Laurie......

I think your concern for the welfare of women is genuine, and that's good. However, I would like to clear up a misunderstanding you have regarding the "assembly system" as you said and its treatment of women. Firstly, you claim that the assembly system damaged women "beyond belief." You are making that claim based on one woman's account and perhaps anything Eulaha might have told you. There were hundreds of women in the assembly. You cannot make a judgment like that without talking to more women. It would be like me going to France and thinking that the entire country was gay because the first Frenchie I came across was gay. Do you understand that point?

Secondly, I will tell you that you can find mistreatment of women anywhere in the world. Perhaps some assemblyites have mistreated their wives, christians outside the assembly have mistreated women, jews have mistreated women, atheists have mistreated women, muslims have mistreated women. I will admit that there are times (only 2 or 3 that I can remember) where I cringed at the way a brother treated his wife (won't say names for obvious reasons). The worst I can remember is when a brother shoved his wife into the car because he wanted her to take their kids home and she was hesitating. The other brothers spoke to him about that though, and here is why: the assembly believed in the Bible. And here is what the Bible has to say about women:

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it" Eph 5:25

"So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself" Eph 5:28

"Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them." Col 3:19

Do you see in these verses how a man is supposed to treat his wife? The top verse demands that a man lay down his life for his wife. It is by loving his wife that a man loves himself.  Note especially the last verse there. BE NOT BITTER against them. Thus, the mistreatment of your friend in the assembly or the mistreatment of the person I saw were not instances of an "assembly" sin. They were sins by men. The assembly would not, could not approve of this treatment because it is un-Biblical.

"Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord." I Cor 11:11

Since you are a feminist, I thought I would throw this one in for good measure. This verse speaks to the equality that men and women have in terms of how much God loves us. We are so equal in that sense that God sees marriage as a single entity. He does not only look at the man, nor does He only look at the woman. He looks at them both and he loves them both equally.

I hope that cleared up my perspective on women, Laurie. I do not degrade women, I love them dearly. Laurie, the Lord wants you to be at peace with your feminity. It is good that you are concerned for women, but look to the world for instances of wrongdoings toward women, not just the assembly.
- Matt

Matt:  

Since I was a woman who was involved in the assembly for 15 years, I could not leave your post unresponded to.  I can't remember how long you said you were involved in the San Diego Assembly (and believe me, their teachings were the same as those of the other assemblies) but I do remember it was not for a considerably long time.  You have no clue what bondage the teachings of GG has placed both the men and women under (and particularly that of couples.)   In fact, it is interesting that you point out the scriptures that the Lord is actually using to deliver my husband from the bondage he was under to keep me "under control".  Just ask my husband.  He wasn't taught to "love" his wife.  The teachings of GG placed wives more under the category of "slave" than anything else.  They were to serve their husbands, 99.999% of the time unquestionably.  Even if the husband was in sin, the wife should just submit to the abuse and "trust God to take care of the situation".  My husband and I know first hand.  We were counseled this way specifically.  Thank God, it was one of the final straws the Lord used to open my husbands' and my eyes to leave this cult.  You were never a husband in the assembly.  You have no clue what was taught to husbands about how to treat their wives.  I could fill your ears.  But it repulses me and I don't care to go into it in detail.  But those who were in the assembly and were married are VERY aware of what these teachings were.  Sadly, it is only those who will actively seek to pursue truly biblical teachings regarding how a husband is to treat his wife, who will change.  Sadly, there are couples I know personally who are still treating their wives in the manner we were taught and don't see anything wrong with it.  

For someone like yourself, who really doesn't know what was taught to the couples regarding the marriage relationship (were you in those couples meetings?) to contribute in a public forum as to this issue is irresponsible.  Do I sound a bit emotional about this issue?  You bet!  GG's teachings encouraged division in the marriage relationship.  His system was designed to control the husband and wife and not allow God to lead the family and my family is slowly recovering from this devastating teaching and to have someone who wasn't even married to comment on it in such a flippant manner is offensive.

Matt - Please don't think I am ganging up on you in the manner of Eulaha or Laurie, I don't even know you.  But I wanted to put it in the public forum to clear up any misunderstanding that you have placed in peoples minds to think that any one assembly had even a semblance of biblical teaching or understanding of the marriage relationship.

[Lurker]

As much psychologising and tearful soul-searching that has gone on, there has been by an large a real absence of any thoughtful ananlysis of the spiritual pre-condition that gave rise to GG and his hordes. My own expectation was that former men in leadership would be best equiped to speak knowlegeably and profitably about this aspect of the failed minsitry. Sadly, despite much effort by many, the vast majority of them in senior leadership  have chosen to remain silent. It is the spiritual lessons of the Geftakys phenomenon that are most likely to produce permanent metamorphosis toward true Godliness and forestall a repeat of that sad episode. I hope for all our sakes that we learn them...
Verne

I think the reason for this is that in the main, with a few notable exceptions, the leadership is comprised of cowards.

When you think of the Assembly, think of Iraq on a much smaller scale.  It is easy to bully women (not all of them...Laurie )  and it's not too hard to bully 19 year old men from bad homes, but these types of people are afraid to fight when they might lose.  No backbone at all.

That's why only a few former leaders speak up.  Now, I can understand why they wouldn't want to do it here on the BB.  Most of them write things on the website.  

[Mark C.]

Hi Verne and Others!
  Yes, I guess it was a bit unfair of me to leave you hanging for a week without clarifying my "change of heart".
  The memories of what Judy, Rachel, and so many others suffered as a result of Assembly sponsored abuse should never be forgotten or excused.
  My change of heart had nothing to do with my view of the unrepentant abusers, but re. those that show a vulnerable and contrite expression.  These individuals show the signs of the work of the Holy Spirit in their souls, though in the past they offered a defense of the Assembly.  I trust that God can give us the wisdom to help these individuals in understanding what the theological issues are.  We may get an argument from them, but if presented and answered with civility I think the discussion can be helpful to all.
  There is an inseperable bond between the "spiritual" issues and the "psychological" ones re. the Assembly, in my opinion.  The above disctinctions are not really made in the Bible as to theological truth, or psychological truth.
  The false toxic instruction of GG held it's sway in the "souls" of the members via the manipulation of our thinking and emotions.  Consequently, to recover we must learn the Gospel of the grace of God in truth and how that can heal what the previous erroneous message damaged.    
  The New Test. seems to show the pattern of teaching  theological truth and following it with practical truth re. what that means in behavior, emotionally, and in  relationships.  An example of this would be the theological truth that Christ will never leave us and His invitation to cast all our anxiety(a psychological experience) on Him.
  The fruit of the Spirit is Love, Joy, Peace, etc. which are all emotional responses to the knowledge of the spiritual truth of my salvation in Christ.
                                   God bless,  Mark

[Arlene]

Luke Robinson;
If I offended you in anyway, I'm sorry.  I have no intention of doing so.
I don't post much because of how people go off the topic.
The thread I began, "Can Anything Good Come Out Of The BB," was started sencerly and it did not take long for someone with the same last name as yours to throw some of his humor in.  
This thread is a good example of how off the deep end some have and will go.  

Laurie;
" You have managed to irritate every woman on this board. Now's the time to make amends and think about slitting your throat. (Relax, everyone, he's not going to do it, but me saying this will make it clear to him how hated he is by many on this board.)"  This is not needed from anyone.  And to quote you, "Now is the time to make amends."

[brian]

Now's the time to make amends and think about slitting your throat. (Relax, everyone, he's not going to do it, but me saying this will make it clear to him how hated he is by many on this board.)

comments like this are unwelcome here. they are a violation of your user agreement, and as a community we do not want people here who insist on using our board to post  things like this. this is not open for debate. express yourself another way or move on.

forgive my lack of attention. i know many of you were deeply offended by laurie's caustic comments. finals are this week!  

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Everyone,

This post has been pushing up the pages as people have been told to start pushing up daisies.    I don't know where we got off.  Maybe it is how we started this whole thing, especially me being the first one discussed.    I think that's just kind of looney, but that could just be me.  And ever since that beginning, we've begun a downward spiral.  Oh, we've had moments where we raised up a little bit, but then sputtered back down into the mud-flinging and the name-calling from both sides(God forbid that we do away with sides).  In one corner, we try to put all of those "defending assembly teachings", and in the other corner we have all those "adamant against assembly teachings".  And every new post shows how determined that we are to remain divided until someone sees everything our own way.  

But why do we keep arguing all of these irrelevant points?  Why do we keep worrying about the past assembly system?
Why do we keep discussing things that no longer matter?  You know why?  Because the vast majority of us here, are no longer involved in any assembly.  Why do we keep trying to promote our own views of the assembly?  IT IS CALLED MOVING ON.  But you see?  I think I might have figured out one of the main problems.  

WE CAN'T LET GO.  We all say that we have, and yet, everyday or every other day, we log on to talk more and more about the assembly.  We keep having to delve into our pasts to dig up lost memories to prove our points over if the assembly is good or evil, if it is heretical or truth.  Frankly, from now on, the assembly with me is a moot point.  I am no longer INVOLVED in any form of an assembly, so I don't have to worry about it.  I don't have to try and convince myself that I was deceived every day under ministry.  I also don't need to slap myself every minute for ever getting involved.  It was a stage of my life, and NOW I AM GOING ON TO FINISH THE REST OF MY LIFE.  I have probably 50-60-70-odd years left, and frankly, if I waste one more minute on all of this jazz, I think I might lose my marbles.  

I see that many of these posts talk about "fear" and "worry."  "I am scared that he will do this."  "I worry that she will treat me this way."  "I'm afraid that if I say this, I will be judged."  

Let me ask you all a question.  I am sure you all heard it before.  HOW BIG IS YOUR GOD?  Is he 4'6''?  5'10"?  6'7"?  Is he bigger than George?  Is he bigger than me?  Is he bigger than you?  IS HE BIGGER THAN ALL THE PAIN THAT YOU SUFFER THROUGH?  How big is your God?  

If I was just a regular ol' sinner surfing the web, and I come across this site, and I hear about God, I might think that He is quite small, judging from how "big" all of these problems seem to be.  I would go find myself another god, if this is all our God is.

That brings me to another point.  What kind of example are we showing to everyone that comes and reads here?  If we were thinking objectively, what would we come up with according to how we are behaving?  We are out to prove each other wrong, or worse yet, just say our piece, and give little time to real discussion and tossing around of ideas, that we soon become so stubborn in our ideas.  If you want to learn something out of all of this, you got to give a little, get a little.  It's not just "me who is far more older (or younger), or more booksmart (or street smart), and you should listen to me".  It is I believe this, you believe this, let's line it up, and then CHECK IT WITH THE WORD OF GOD TO SEE THE TRUTH.  And the Bible really isn't being used very much in our discussions here.

Do you think about what you are saying here and how people might be affected by it?  We are so oblivious to everyone but ourselves that we can hardly see those that we are stepping on.  I personally have been at fault for this, as well as many here.  But think about it.  If someone were to come here without the slightest notion of Christianity or WITH a slight notion of Christianity, and saw how we were after each other and how we discussed things, he or she probably would not like to become one.  You might say that that person is responsible for how they take what we have to say, but my friend, that is not what Christ would say.  

We have put all of these issues into the limelight, formally known as the internet.  It is a public place where anyone and everyone can log on and read all of this.  SINCE THIS IS PUBLIC, DON'T YOU THINK THAT MAYBE WE SHOULD BEHAVING LIKE A TRUE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST???  It doesn't take much to act exactly like the world.  Is that our goal here?  Or is it something deeper?

IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON.  You can take that comment anyway you like, but this is how I mean it.  I think that we are holding on so strongly to the assembly, whether we like it or not, and we can't let go in any of our discussions.  Now, I am not saying for those involved in the assembly to leave.  No, not in the least.  If you trust that God has put you there, then you stay there.  But for those that have left, YOU ARE DOING YOURSELF NO GOOD BY JUST PICKING AT THE SCABS SLOWLY FORMED BY ALL THAT HAS HAPPENED.  IF YOU WANT TO SEE HEALING, IT IS NOT THROUGH A TEN STEP PROCESS(THE FIRST ONE BEING ANGER).  BUT IT IS THROUGH LETTING GO AND LETTING GOD.  IF YOU WANT TO SEE HEALING, IT IS NOT THROUGH "LETTING IT ALL OUT" AS MANY HAVE SAID.  IT IS TRUSTING THE LORD.  And if you haven't come to that point where you are dependent on God, then it's not too late to start now.  

You might say,"Well, Luke, you don't know all the problems I've been through" or to quote that good ol' song,"the trouble I've seen."  You're most definitely right.  I don't know all that you've seen.  I am not in your brain.  I have never seen through your eyes and I haven't walked a mile in your shoes.  But I do know someone who has.  Who has been touched with every infirmity.  Who can heal the sick and hurting.  Who died for each and every one of you.  AND WHO IS VERY BIG AND POWERFUL AS WELL AS CARING AND LOVING, MUCH HIGHER THAN OUR HUMAN LOGIC IN ALL ITS CAPABILITY, CAN PONDER.

I love you people.  And if I didn't love you, I would tell you something else.  Or worse yet, nothing at all.  But I see that even now we can learn to let go of all of those things and continue on with our lives and following the Lord as he gives us the grace and power.  God bless and keep you, and may He give you the words to speak as you continue to converse on this forum.

Ps 46:10
Be still, and know that I am God...

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

[Lurker]

Luke

Maybe if you assure everyone that you are not going to be an Assembly leader, this thread can rest in peace?

Also, for what it might be worth, i agree with 99% of your last post except one thing.  From what I have been able to discern, and from talking to the two people I know from the Assembly, and the dozens from another cult, it is important to talk about things.  

Talking about things is part of "moving on."  However, as you pointed out, there comes a time when people need to change the subject, and move on to another topic.

No matter what anyone does, a large percentage of the Assemblyites will get involved in another cult, or abusive church.  The reason is that we don't learn the first time, which is why talking is so important.

However, I agree with you, this thread is burnt out.

Lurker

[Mark C.]

Lurker-
  Very good point re. the problems that can develop if we choose to not talk about our Assembly past.  All things can work together for good in our life with God, even our mistakes.  To not learn from our mistakes is to squander an opportunity to mature in our lives with Christ.
Luke-
   It is not what we can present on the BB as good Christian example that will help us to change or will influence others for good.  I realize this is a somewhat puzzling comment to make and I will try to explain.
  In our religous past we strove to maintain a standard of conduct and attitude that we were told was "Christ like" and indeed the Bible urges Christians to do just that.  This past pursuit of moral excellence had some big flaws in it.
  1. The standard of excellence was chiefly loyalty to the leader and his ministry.
   2. The performance was for others and for acceptance in the group.
   3. Much of it was hypocritcal. (please understand;  I mean just good people who couldn't be honest about their own inner struggles as there were no means for such a discussion)

  The last point needs further explanation as it is not a broadside against all Assembly folks as being phony GG cult members, but an experience all Christians struggle with.  In the Assemblies that I was in the dynamics were certainly strongly supportive of the hypocrisy I mentioned, but it is a common Christian experience.
   
   I believe that honesty is the start to the practical work of the Holy Spirit in a believers life.  God works from the inside out to create an image of Himself in our lives.  Some might argue and say "Christ" is the key and we need to just "look to Him".  While the statements are true they can be meaningless spiritualizing if they are not understood in relationship to the condition of my heart.
  Let me explain it this way: The Spirit begins His work in us by convicting us of our sin.  God is working a honest response to my true condition.  God's Spirit also shows us the way he intends to deal with that sin and we are shown Jesus Christ and Him crucified.  This in turn creates a change that is manifested in my life; an attitude of humility, gratitude, and love.  
   What does this have to do with the BB and the points you raised (good ones)?  When I read the testimony of Kevin Welsch, Arthur, Steve I. etc. I see the process of God doing a deep work of transformation.  It isn't as if we need to promote the process of anger, going back through our past, etc. in some kind of 10 step treatment program.  What is happening is that the fact of these individuals making the discovery of God in the naked honesty of their wounded souls.  It ain't pretty sometimes!  We must take the wounded as they come our way.
   One thing just about everyone who was in the Assembly notices, who starts to think these things through is, "Man, I didn't realize how proud I was."  Even the nicest most compliant individual from the Assembly tends to beat their chest in contrition over the lack of personal honesty re. their inner life that they had in the Assembly.
 They daily heard the Word of God and yet were unable to make some of the connection to their own lives.  The new awareness that it was God knocking at their door, when they thought it was the "worldly church" that needed the correction, is a stunning revelation.  Restoration from such brokeness takes some time for most and the recommendation to "get beyond it" is not what will do the trick.
  It is through the help of others who understand these needs that God ministers to these hearts.  We are told to weep with those that weep (not to tell them to stop weeping, or to trivialize their pain) to comfort those who need to be comforted.  These are real human behaviors that reflect the work of the Holy Spirit in our relationships and what it means to be in the body of Christ.  Grace is a miraculous life transforming power, but the recitation of verses alone is not the only vehicle of that grace.  It is that grace in our humanity that provides the loving hand up that we all so desperately need; the word made flesh.
  May God take our wounds and create in us a sensitivity to our brethren that leads to a powerful expression of Christ's love toward others.
                                 God Bless,  Mark

[Matt]

Dear Mark and Lurker,
I am hesitant to write this post because I do not want to give the appearance that I agree with Luke Robinson on everything. I must say, however, that his point about not being angry and bringing up past assembly wrongs is an excellent one, and one that is Biblically founded. I am also hesitant to write this because way back when, I entreated the poster Bluejay to let his anger go from "his heart and mind," and I was subsequently rebuked by someone (his name starts with a V and ends with an -erne) for it.

The Lord has given me these verses as of late:
Colossians 3:13 "Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye"

Ecc 7:9 "Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools."

Eph 4:31-32 "Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
  And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

These are not my words, they come from the Lord to instruct us. I regret that I have presented myself as a fool on this thread, the Lord told me that when I was reading Proverbs in my morning time. The tongue is really the most powerful organ in the body, with your tongue, you can damage your reputation in an instant. You can hurt someone beyond belief, and with that same organ, confess your sins and ask for forgiveness. However, I have learned that the Lord does not desire people to be angry or to react angrily. He wants us to forgive, and He very much wants us to let go: "let all bitterness, all wrath, be put away from you."

Luke is right. The "assembly system" is close to collapse. What assemblies have not disbanded are on the way to it. George Geftakys will never again be able to rebuild it - he has absolutely no credibility. The Lord will reckon with GG as He sees fit. So, when someone has something to defend about the assembly system, they are defending something from their past. Likewise, when someone brings up something in reaction to that, they are bringing up something from their past. It's not something that is relevant anymore. And bringing up past issues constantly out of emotion is not evidence of having let something go.

This paragraph is specifically for Kim Tobin, Amy Denny, and Eulaha Long. I'm sorry that it seemed I was trying to minimize your feelings about your past involvement. My intention was to show that there were a lot of Godly, loving, caring, kind people in the assembly. So it seemed to me that blanket statements about the assembly were unfair at best. That is why I brought up the issue about brothers in the assembly who treated their wives with the utmost respect and love. I know that apparently your individual experiences do not correlate with what I've seen, but they do not negate the actions of loving husbands in the assembly.

Ultimately, I cannot view the assembly as something evil or a tool of the devil. Think of how many people accepted Jesus. I'm not just talking about the people who attended meetings, I mean think about the people you prayed with on Sunday afternoons at their doorsteps, or at the malls during outreach, or at the parks, or when we would go to the hospitals. They may not have come to the Bible studies they were invited to, but think how many came to know Jesus. I very much think that the Lord used the assembly for many good things.

My last point is that I would like to acknowledge that the assembly has harmed people on individual cases. Eulaha, Kim, Amy, I know that you have been harmed and I pray for your healing and for the Lord to bless you richly. I want to warn you thought that because you are out of the assembly does not mean you will not get burned elsewhere. No church is perfect, the assembly is not perfect, the baptist church down the street is not perfect, the non-denominational church kiddy corner to that is not perfect. I agree with Luke: only one thing in this world will not burn you: the LORD! He is the only perfect thing. Depend on Him and not on anything else, no system, no church, no pastor, no leading brother. Depend on Him!

Verne - if you truly did not want to argue, then please answer my email that I sent last week so that we can try to come to some reconciliation. Ok? Ok.

I know that I have wronged a lot of people on this board. Please email me or send me a message if you are bitter with me.    

I also know that I'm not going to get very many positive reactions to this post. I'm sorry in advance. I'm still trying out this "nice" business, not to good at it yet.  

I will sign the way Laurie does (with Love) except I'll add Lord bless.

Lord bless.
Love,
Matt

[Lurker]

Ultimately, I cannot view the assembly as something evil or a tool of the devil. Think of how many people accepted Jesus. I'm not just talking about the people who attended meetings, I mean think about the people you prayed with on Sunday afternoons at their doorsteps, or at the malls during outreach, or at the parks, or when we would go to the hospitals. They may not have come to the Bible studies they were invited to, but think how many came to know Jesus. I very much think that the Lord used the assembly for many good things.

I know how you feel Matt.  Try to look at like this:

If some good things happen, is it proof that the system in which they occured was "good," or Godly?

Answer, NO.

Follow this logic:

The communist government in China is not bad, just look at how many people have come to Christ over there.

or

The Taliban was not that bad.  God used it to allow two missionaries to preach the gospel and then, through their captivity, bring the worlds attention on Christianity in Afghanistan.  The Taliban is good.

Neither of these two statements are correct.  God is good, and is able to work even in horrible situations.

Lurker

[Matt]

I know how you feel Matt.  Try to look at like this:

If some good things happen, is it proof that the system in which they occured was "good," or Godly?

Answer, NO.

Follow this logic:

The communist government in China is not bad, just look at how many people have come to Christ over there.

or

The Taliban was not that bad.  God used it to allow two missionaries to preach the gospel and then, through their captivity, bring the worlds attention on Christianity in Afghanistan.  The Taliban is good.

Neither of these two statements are correct.  God is good, and is able to work even in horrible situations.

Lurker

Lurker,
Thank you for your post. I must admit that I do not see the connection between the Assembly and the governments of communist China and the Taliban. One of the main goals of the Assembly was/is (for those still meeting) to bring people to Christ. The Lord worked directly through the assembly. The Taliban and communist China obviously do not have similar goals. The Lord worked indirectly in that case. The Assembly was an entity that encouraged outreach, the Taliban and Communist China are both known to suppress Christianity. Just some thoughts.
Lord bless.
- Matt

[Lurker]

[/quote author=Lurker link=board=15;threadid=353;start=0#9362 date=1052182749]One of the main goals of the Assembly was/is (for those still meeting) to bring people to Christ.

OK, you would know more than me.  From what I can gather, from reading the stuff on RickRoss, GA.com, MacGregor Ministries and this BB, I gather that the main goal of the Assembly was to get more members.  Christ was a secondary goal.

The reason I say this is because of the many testimonies about how other churches were second best, and to leave to Assembly was to leave the covering of God's protection.

Plenty of Christian cults use this teaching to keep people committed to a CAUSE.  Healthy churches do no such thing, as they want people to be committed to Jesus Christ.  In a system where you were not free to come and go without permission, Christ is not the main goal, membership/loyalty to the group is.

Now, with limited firsthand knowledge, a good bit of second hand knowledge, and a vast knowledge of the public literature about the group, I feel quite assured that my statements made above are accurate.  

I used the Taliban and China in order to state logic, not to make a direct comparison to the Assembly.  

Now, if the literature about this group is inaccurate, then my statements will also be innaccurate.  However, I have yet to hear anyone refute the veracity of the claims made by the dozens of writers on geftakysassembly.com.

The only rational conclusion, from my own limited point of view, is that the Assembly was "bad," but God used it in spite of George.  It would seem that God judged the group rather swiftly and decisively in recent months.

Can someone set me straight regarding what I have just written?  Please do not attack me personally, none of you have any idea who I am.  Feel free to poke holes in my thoughts and words and logic.

Also, did lots of people really come to Christ through the Assemlby?  From what I can gather, the groups remained quite small.  This hardly constitutes "God directly using the Assembly."

Lurker